![[il]](/mwf/flags/il.png "Israel")
Hi, I'm Nandel, I'm an indie musician.
I've been a fan of clonk for a long time, and I was quite exited to hear it's gone open source.
I was even more exited to hear you guys are looking for musicians, and although I never participated In a video game project, I really hope that I can contribute to this project.
I went and made a small concept track.
It's not amazing, I've made far better stuff, but I hope I can contribute music in the future.
This is the link:
http://www.2shared.com/file/12627151/3033b5e2/Video_Game_Concept.html
It's short. made to play in a loop. It's in MP3 format for comfort, but I can always convert.
tell me what you guys think (:
I've been a fan of clonk for a long time, and I was quite exited to hear it's gone open source.
I was even more exited to hear you guys are looking for musicians, and although I never participated In a video game project, I really hope that I can contribute to this project.
I went and made a small concept track.
It's not amazing, I've made far better stuff, but I hope I can contribute music in the future.
This is the link:
http://www.2shared.com/file/12627151/3033b5e2/Video_Game_Concept.html
It's short. made to play in a loop. It's in MP3 format for comfort, but I can always convert.
tell me what you guys think (:
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Phew, the download link is hidden quite well between all the adware downloads ("<font size=0.01pt>Save file to your PC: click here</font>").Anyway, sounds relaxing. Not sure if it fits the current action-paced scenarios. But having music would be really cool regardless, maybe for the title screen?
"Phew, the download link is hidden quite well between all the adware downloads"
Yeah I noticed that, Next time I'll upload somewhere better, this was only an example.
"Anyway, sounds relaxing. Not sure if it fits the current action-paced scenarios."
I can also write things that fit better into the action part of the game, should I create a track with more action-like atmosphere?
"But having music would be really cool regardless, maybe for the title screen?"
If you need a title theme, I can definitely write something more complex or interesting, something with more of a "Theme" feeling.
Yeah I noticed that, Next time I'll upload somewhere better, this was only an example.
"Anyway, sounds relaxing. Not sure if it fits the current action-paced scenarios."
I can also write things that fit better into the action part of the game, should I create a track with more action-like atmosphere?
"But having music would be really cool regardless, maybe for the title screen?"
If you need a title theme, I can definitely write something more complex or interesting, something with more of a "Theme" feeling.
hey, sounds nice. as said, it does not fit very well for action levels. what tool do you use to create music? to me, it sounds as if you were playing everything on a electronic keyboard to the PC =) anyway, nice.this brings me to another idea - imo we should not have one great music folder, but several smaller ones, for different themes. so we could have a folder for melees and one for settlement. maybe we also need more folders, maybe for puzzle-scenarios.
Hi,
Well composing music is one thing, but composing music for clonk is a bit complicated. Clonk creates many different situations while playing, and therefore the players get confronted with different feelings all the time. A track for clonk needs to be something that can easily switch feelings between different situations.
There will most likely be music packets - and the scenario designer will choose the music packets which fits the best for his scenarios. But even with that we can't just compose anything we like.
Furthermore, game music is played in the background. The former Clonk composer HCK (soundtracK=10years old) stated that he disliked the high amount of different melodies in his tracks. Because of that the tracks became annoying after some time of playing.
The point is: We need to keep it simple for staying in the background of the game, but we have to make the tracks interesting at the same time - nobody is gonna like the soundtrack if it always sounds the same.
Concerning your track:
The tense mood is created by the 3rd appregio or chord in the theme, this sounds great 1 or 2 times. But you can't create a whole track on one simple theme switching only the instrument leading the melody (and different background instruments). This track will become boring after like 3 minutes of listening. Furthermore the melody gets stuck in the head (because of the striking sound of the 3rd chord), this will even fasten the short time a listener isn't annoyed by it. Well of course it depends on the situation the track is played in. The solo fits quite nice into the track on the other hand.
I think the loop is not necessary, if too tracks won't fit one after another we could create a FadeOut/In-Script that connects the different songs (like radio channels do it).
Well anyway, I'm glad we have a professional in our ranks :)
Well composing music is one thing, but composing music for clonk is a bit complicated. Clonk creates many different situations while playing, and therefore the players get confronted with different feelings all the time. A track for clonk needs to be something that can easily switch feelings between different situations.
There will most likely be music packets - and the scenario designer will choose the music packets which fits the best for his scenarios. But even with that we can't just compose anything we like.
Furthermore, game music is played in the background. The former Clonk composer HCK (soundtracK=10years old) stated that he disliked the high amount of different melodies in his tracks. Because of that the tracks became annoying after some time of playing.
The point is: We need to keep it simple for staying in the background of the game, but we have to make the tracks interesting at the same time - nobody is gonna like the soundtrack if it always sounds the same.
Concerning your track:
The tense mood is created by the 3rd appregio or chord in the theme, this sounds great 1 or 2 times. But you can't create a whole track on one simple theme switching only the instrument leading the melody (and different background instruments). This track will become boring after like 3 minutes of listening. Furthermore the melody gets stuck in the head (because of the striking sound of the 3rd chord), this will even fasten the short time a listener isn't annoyed by it. Well of course it depends on the situation the track is played in. The solo fits quite nice into the track on the other hand.
I think the loop is not necessary, if too tracks won't fit one after another we could create a FadeOut/In-Script that connects the different songs (like radio channels do it).
Well anyway, I'm glad we have a professional in our ranks :)
I appreciate your comment, Thank you.
You're absolutely right, video game music in general is very difficult to create.
It's especially difficult to create video game music, because the music has to be in sync with the game, the rhythm of the characters, environment and more.
but both the first and the second tracks are sketches for what I have in mind.
The trick is making a track both static and dynamic to avoid the listener getting bored\annoyed\distracted
I'll keep working on it, Thank you for your comment (:
You're absolutely right, video game music in general is very difficult to create.
It's especially difficult to create video game music, because the music has to be in sync with the game, the rhythm of the characters, environment and more.
but both the first and the second tracks are sketches for what I have in mind.
The trick is making a track both static and dynamic to avoid the listener getting bored\annoyed\distracted
I'll keep working on it, Thank you for your comment (:
We tried to eliminate this fact by having on-the-fly-composed music to harmonic schemes. (checkout this to see what i mean http://opensvn.csie.org/gwxsource/)
The Music engine generates a random beat (between 80 and 200 bpm), a hi-hat rhythm and a melody that plays the tones of the harmonics (3 or 4 tones per harmony)
the problem with this was, that the harmonys itself could bore, too (http://opensvn.csie.org/gwxsource/Music/) and the schemes, a computer can play to it are not that colourful than a human instrumental solo. You can either have many "wrong" tones with a high risk to get something not sounding good or you can force all played notes being in the scheme, but thats too boring because then you are only allowed to play 3 or 4 different notes.
The Music engine generates a random beat (between 80 and 200 bpm), a hi-hat rhythm and a melody that plays the tones of the harmonics (3 or 4 tones per harmony)
the problem with this was, that the harmonys itself could bore, too (http://opensvn.csie.org/gwxsource/Music/) and the schemes, a computer can play to it are not that colourful than a human instrumental solo. You can either have many "wrong" tones with a high risk to get something not sounding good or you can force all played notes being in the scheme, but thats too boring because then you are only allowed to play 3 or 4 different notes.
Interesting.
What happened after that? did you stick with it or did something else?
What happened after that? did you stick with it or did something else?
Well, "procedural music", as you call it, is an interesting idea for OC.
You would have to sort of tell the PC what sounds good and let him "compose" it's own music afterwards.
But it's rather complicated, I think :)
You would have to sort of tell the PC what sounds good and let him "compose" it's own music afterwards.
But it's rather complicated, I think :)
To teach a human music takes several years - to master it: half a lifetime maybe. To teach that to a computer is pure madeness. It would take years and more years to even match the abilities of a child.
Well, thats something one could start with.
But it sounds - yes, procedural/random
But it sounds - yes, procedural/random
thanks for the proof.
The computer has a basic key and is playing around with the appregios (chord patterns) and a couple of instruments. But he can't build tension and release it - an essential skill for every song.
The computer has a basic key and is playing around with the appregios (chord patterns) and a couple of instruments. But he can't build tension and release it - an essential skill for every song.
Sorry, this just seems to be much to plain as in "computers can't make music with $something just because they can't, and that will be like that for ever". There is no reason why a computer can't be able to understand the concept - either through implementation by a human, defining what arpeggios build up tension and which release it. This is just part of the implementation. Alternatively you can let the computer recreate it for himself, using ANNs for example. In the end there is no reason why another real object shouldn't be able to manage something, human brains are (plainly speaking) just a mass of neurons themselves and technically not any better then a computer.(Although of course we haven't reached the human level everywhere yet, but for me this is just a matter of time until machines start passing the Turing test).
Of course if you just say "this is impossible", then you are not able to recreate it artificially. You just have to start with what is possible and continue working on.
Well, the computer doesn't need to remember keys, you program him once and he won't ever make a mistake in playing the tune you want him to.
I should specify myself: All the computer has to know is harmonics.
I should specify myself: All the computer has to know is harmonics.
Harmony and a little ryhthm theorie should be enough to produce a pop song - but the child will still beat the computer. Playing wihtout mistake is one thing, but the computer has to learn to emphasize notes - the child will do mistakes, but hes playing will sound much more alive.
Harmony itself (by the way only one of at least over 10 other subjects in university) can be very advanced and complicated - and not mathematical logial. A bad sound, may sound good in certain circumstances which a computer can't grasp without beeing taught much about human feelings and artistic expressions.
Trust me, a computer which could compose some stuff which is worth hearing is a lot of work and more work.
Harmony itself (by the way only one of at least over 10 other subjects in university) can be very advanced and complicated - and not mathematical logial. A bad sound, may sound good in certain circumstances which a computer can't grasp without beeing taught much about human feelings and artistic expressions.
Trust me, a computer which could compose some stuff which is worth hearing is a lot of work and more work.
Right, I've also come to the conclusion that we need "real" music for Clonk.
But procedural would fit other game, even if it doesn't make "sense" in a composing way. I think about very abstract games like Love
But procedural would fit other game, even if it doesn't make "sense" in a composing way. I think about very abstract games like Love
>Trust me, a computer which could compose some stuff which is worth hearing is a lot of work and more work.
And if something like this would exist, other componists, bands and singers will loose their jobs. :P
In return, buying music would become much cheaper, the pirating industry would go down, and with them the pirate hunter industry.
The last one being paid by the government, the taxes would plummet, leading to a less poor population with lower criminality.
Gogogo, someone make a good compositing program :D
The last one being paid by the government, the taxes would plummet, leading to a less poor population with lower criminality.
Gogogo, someone make a good compositing program :D
I've felt inspired so I've made my first finished attempt at an action themed track
Edit:
Oh by the way, It's meant to play in a loop, but I messed up a little with making it run smoothly, so it's not perfect, I'll perfect it when I can, you can still listen to it, it just has a little problem with looping (:
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
Edit:
Oh by the way, It's meant to play in a loop, but I messed up a little with making it run smoothly, so it's not perfect, I'll perfect it when I can, you can still listen to it, it just has a little problem with looping (:
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
Attachment: ActionTheme1.mp3 - First attempt to make an action theme (1497k)
Well I like the piano solo very much.
While the track fits in a certain situation (like in an adventure) it won't do in the general gameplay, it is too catchy again. And try to compose something with more themes in it (I know that connecting to themes is one of the harder parts, in this song I would try a cool down part in the middle or a slow middle part that will boost in the solo finish).
While the track fits in a certain situation (like in an adventure) it won't do in the general gameplay, it is too catchy again. And try to compose something with more themes in it (I know that connecting to themes is one of the harder parts, in this song I would try a cool down part in the middle or a slow middle part that will boost in the solo finish).
I think I finished the track, I think it sounds pretty good, try playing it at a decreased volume while playing "The guardian of windmills" scenario
I couldn't attach the file so I uploaded it to sendspace
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
http://www.sendspace.com/file/5l2kmj
I couldn't attach the file so I uploaded it to sendspace
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
http://www.sendspace.com/file/5l2kmj
It's still not really dynamic at all.
But it is really hard to describe how I would change it. For me it all is still one theme with variations, even the slow part. It all sounds more like the composition of a band which is having a great time jamming.
Well it is not boring or something, it also fits the scenario quite well. But I don't think this will do in the long run. I somehow like it as well...
Is there a possibility to release it as a midi file with your programs for fast changes? I can't operate professional music software though, if midi won't work I may try a rearrangement to show you the things I don't like.
But it is really hard to describe how I would change it. For me it all is still one theme with variations, even the slow part. It all sounds more like the composition of a band which is having a great time jamming.
Well it is not boring or something, it also fits the scenario quite well. But I don't think this will do in the long run. I somehow like it as well...
Is there a possibility to release it as a midi file with your programs for fast changes? I can't operate professional music software though, if midi won't work I may try a rearrangement to show you the things I don't like.
My music software cannot export midi for the full track only individual "midi clips", even if it did, I use high quality vsts, using the midi files on something else will sound terrible, and completely different, therefor making it insufficient for correct editing and arranging.
Although It would be great to collaborate with you, I simply can't.
If you want me to export all the midi clips and put it in a .rar file and send it to you, it's possible, but it'll be hours of work to make it sound right for you, and then hours of work for me to make it sound right with my instruments.
although we don't need to do all that, you can just tell me where in the track I need to make changes and I will, I understand your point, it evolves slowly and stays in the same overall groove, creating a "Jam" feeling, best way to solve this, would be if you could send my an example of what kind of genre direction openclonk is looking for.
Also, don't forget - every level in clonk can last a LONG time, and one track repeating itself won't work, Which would probably lead us to change tracks in mid level, like in the previous clonk games.
This is an assumption though, I do not know what the plans are for the sound engine are.
another way to go around this is for a few musicians would work on different aspects of a track (midi), then one musician will take it all, arrange it, and export it.
Although It would be great to collaborate with you, I simply can't.
If you want me to export all the midi clips and put it in a .rar file and send it to you, it's possible, but it'll be hours of work to make it sound right for you, and then hours of work for me to make it sound right with my instruments.
although we don't need to do all that, you can just tell me where in the track I need to make changes and I will, I understand your point, it evolves slowly and stays in the same overall groove, creating a "Jam" feeling, best way to solve this, would be if you could send my an example of what kind of genre direction openclonk is looking for.
Also, don't forget - every level in clonk can last a LONG time, and one track repeating itself won't work, Which would probably lead us to change tracks in mid level, like in the previous clonk games.
This is an assumption though, I do not know what the plans are for the sound engine are.
another way to go around this is for a few musicians would work on different aspects of a track (midi), then one musician will take it all, arrange it, and export it.
>best way to solve this, would be if you could send my an example of what kind of genre direction openclonk is looking for.
The style of the new soundtrack is still a big question in dispute, there exist dozens of opinions regarding this topic.
I for my part promote a funky or a calm jazz based sound for the tracks because they have the the characteristics which I think we need (Your sentence fits perfect here: "The trick is making a track both static and dynamic to avoid the listener getting bored\annoyed\distracted"), mixed with the elements we build the track for (a settlement scenario/a race/action etc.).
Also there is the advantage that it is possible to mix a jazz like feeling with almost any feeling a enviroment or an object pack would require. It easily adepts most of the styles... although this may be very hard.
I also made positive experience with the eke-midi-package for clonk while playing (~which was like 5 or more years ago, but I still have it) that was filled with a mixture of groove and jazz tracks (James Brown or Hello Mrs Robinson e.g.). It's hard to describe the influences outside of clonk, I'm some sort of soundtrack geek having listenend to a few hundred fantasy soundtracks mainly.
This is only my opinion. There are a lot of others, and there are a lot of other methods too which may result in good tracks as well.
I've started composing again today, I may upload a sample midi in a few days. But the problem with me is that although I'm working on music a lot (I plan to study film music and I'm currently working to have the money to approach it in one year or something), I'm some kind of peculiar (mostly self taught and in dispute with the teachers I had).
>Also, don't forget - every level in clonk can last a LONG time, and one track repeating itself won't work, Which would probably lead us to change tracks in mid level, like in the previous clonk games.
This is an assumption though, I do not know what the plans are for the sound engine are.
I'm pretty sure this will be the case, but the option to try loop based tracks is possible either.
>another way to go around this is for a few musicians would work on different aspects of a track (midi), then one musician will take it all, arrange it, and export it.
Yes we had this in mind already, Shadow is buying a new soundcard for his computer and will hopefully boost into project after that :)
It seems it's to early to say anything frankly, Music seems to be at the bottom of the priority list of the project, which sounds about right, it's confusing to work on so many aspects of the project for the developers. and there's many aspects that require more immediate work.
Perhaps it's too early to talk practical, since there are barely (if any?) musicians working on the music right now.
Better for me to wait a bit until music goes up in the priority list, so that I can help a bit more.
It was fun making this track, so I hope it will be soon(:
Perhaps it's too early to talk practical, since there are barely (if any?) musicians working on the music right now.
Better for me to wait a bit until music goes up in the priority list, so that I can help a bit more.
It was fun making this track, so I hope it will be soon(:
> It seems it's to early to say anything frankly, Music seems to be at the bottom of the priority list of the project
Why do you think that? This is definitely not the case. As Music.c4g is currently empty we really need some tracks :)
> Better for me to wait a bit until music goes up in the priority list, so that I can help a bit more.
Your work is very much appreciated.
Well nothing is done, nothing is certain.
Seems like this is the perfect moment to change this.
Seems like this is the perfect moment to change this.
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