Hi everyone,I just wanted to give some feedback about the buildings in OC. (And then I remembered some minor control stuff, too.^^)
Buildings
How settlements look like
First there is... the style... (yeah, difficult topic :p) But no, not the looks of the models. They look cool. And I like the steampunk stuff. It's the way a settlement looks. I know they are designed to look like they were built in a rush and with basic tools. But what if you play a long settlement round that lasts maybe a few hours? I think the player would like to have reached more than a cluster of shelters. See, for example doors were bannished from the game. Why? I like the idea of having buildings where I can actually go in, store things, and give you some safety. The thing is, a settlement without real buildings like houses is not a settlement. Like I said, just a cluster of shelters and stands. I have read the document about settlement and (if it's up to date) there aren't planned structures that actually are more advancedand look like buildings or houses.
My idea here is to have more advanced buildings. Maybe the little things like the foundry and the little sawmill are just a first generation of buildings as you play. Maybe with time, you unlock more advanced tier buildings. For example a bigger foundry wich has improvements over the other one. Maybe it refines the simple metal bars to iron beams. Or the 'tier 2' sawmill could produce wooden planks. These materials could then be used in the shipyard or the blimp. Maybe there could even be a 'tier 3' generation of buildings, wich are sturdy and expensive
Another idea for a building that could belong here is the stonecutter. Or a brickfield. It could refine rocks or loam to bricks. Maybe in higher tiers even concrete is needed. That all would give a bigger number of production chains or make them longer, thus adding more variety to the game. In tier 3 there could also be an 'upgrade workshop' where you can enhance your vehicles. Make them faster, stronger, lorrys could carry 10 more objects, etc.
More usage of the 3D abilities
Also the buildings look plain flat at the moment. They don't make use of being 3D rendered at all. The way they are displayed at the moment is a pure waste of polygons (and you are trying to make them low poly). In fact the buildings would't even need backsites! If you want to save polys, cut off the site that doesn't face the player. That could reduce the poly count drastically. (Some potential here.) For example the foundry doesn't need to be round on it's backsite.
Is it planned to make buildings look more 3D? I have some ideas on that. Give them a vanishing point. Sven2 I think already brought the idea up here somewhere in the forum. You could also rotate the buildings randomly around their y-axis. A few degrees at least. That's only somewhat compatible with the 'no backside idea'. You would have to know how muck you can remove, before it's visible in the most extreme rotation ingame then.
Also animations and movable objects. Isn't that one of the big points why 3d models were included? You could make better use of them in many cases. For example the windmill. (the electrical one) Turn it 45° and let the rotors and let them point into the players camera. Or even better when the wind turns, the whole 'head' of the building turns. There are windmills that do that irl, too. Another occasion where the 3D abilities weren't used better is the plane. When it flys in crash landing it looks just as flat as a sprite. When it turns around (wich isn't the case it that scenario) it looks much better, because it rotates around it's y-axis. So let it rotate a little around the x-axis and it gives you an idea of depth. It would sway in the wind.
The flag
Another thing that wasn't clear the first time I tried to settle was the electricity. First I built a sawmill, then I noticed it needs power. So I built a windmill right next to it. But no power. And no way to connect the structures. So I gave up, I thought linekits weren't developed yet (stupid me^^). Then I found out, that it needs to be in the radius of the flag, wich is ok. So I built the flag and... I needed metal for it. Ok then, foundry. Done. And finally I could power the sawmill with electricety. What I don't like is that linekits are gone. Why? Why don't we want to connect buildings with cables? In the settlement document it says 'no one ever had joy in this'. I highly disagree with that. It's really no burden at all to go to 2 buildings and connect them together. And right after that it says there could be a 'mechanism' needed in mechanical buildings to replace the linekit. So a burden is removed from the player, because noone ever enjoyed it, but then another one is added at the same time? I don't see the point. Also a wired settlement looks way cooler than the floating triangles produced by the flag. They are everywhere. Much prefer the linekits! :/ Or an energy system that's wireless, but doesn't need a flag and floating triangles (since it makes no sense, as long as the windmill is near the consument it should work. I can't see why a wooden flag that stands 20 metres away from the setup should affect my electricity.) Star Empires had a wireless energy system. And iirc the range was only displayed when requested. With a system like that the flagpole wouldn't be needed anymore.
On a side note: When I build the foundry next to the flag, it automatically sells the produced gold bars. What if I want to make a golden statue? I have to catch them instantly when they come out of the foundry, or else the flag will sell them. Also, when I would throw the gold nugget into the foundry (it doesn't work or isn't included atm), the flag sells it faster then it can reach the foundry. So what I learned from that: flags are evil.
Construction sites
The new construction sites are cool. Putting things in them is cool, the wireframe is cool, being able to cancel it is cool. But why is the hammering gone? Because standing in front of it is boring? You don't have to stand in front of it, you usually have a second clonk to control around. Self constructing buildings don't make sense.
Control
I have few to say here, just some improvements (maybe some things were said already).
The mousewheel should be used for selecting items in your inventory. To zoom hold down lshift and scroll.
When throwing away an item, the hand (selection indicator) should go to the next occupied spot. Right now if I had 3 rocks in my inventory and I want to throw all three away, I click on one rock to select it, then move the courser to my aim. Throw it and then to select the next rock I have to travel all the way back to the item and click on it again and go back to aiming again. Or hit the number buttons, wich I don't like either. Having unoccupied item slots selected has no use, therefore it should just jump to the next item.
When you press 'E' the content menu opens over your clonk or other containers. It should open above your curser, so you don't have to move it too far across the screen.
And finally I have a question about the controls. Sometimes you can interact ('space') with two objects at the same time, for example a lorry in front of a foundry. The lory is the thing i can grab with space, but how can I switch to the foundry? There must be a button I haven't figured out yet! :S
Okay that's all I think! Note that these are just opinions. I am also aware that the game is far from complete yet. That's the reason why I'm writing this.
![[ie]](/mwf/flags/ie.png "Ireland")
For a start: Thanks for you feedback :) I appreciate it and it was fun reading!I'll see to address your points, state the opinion(s) in the dev team as far as I conceive them and/or give you some background information about certain decisions.
> I have read the document about settlement and (if it's up to date)
Yep, it is. I see to that. ;)
> See, for example doors were bannished from the game. Why?
I think the idea first occured looking at melees in Clonk Rage (CR). Buildings were seen as kind of a cheapshot. Especially in Melees they are often used to hide; the base is badly designed in particular because hostile clonks can't use the door. If you succeed in luring your enemy into the base, he gets beaten to death without any chance which is plainly unfair. Also the practical invulnerability is bad. Of course, removing entrances isn't the only possible solution. You could e.g. make building easier to set on fire and thus more vulnerable to attacks. But then maybe the need for a counter-object comes up and you end up with an endless circle of attack and counter-attack feature wishes. But I guess that we are aware of possible other solutions. This one just was cheap, convenient and in the end convincing enough.
In settlements your buildings' interiors aren't of special importance. You only enter the production buildings in the case that you want to make something. So why bother with entering at all? When you don't know where to go, you just stay with your clonks in the base. Again, very cheap for protection against ~everything (except the single, well targeted meteor that wipes out your home). Both of these issues are addressed by our change: You don't have such a crucial weak spot that'll burn away while you're not watching and security isn't achieved just by that, making settlement a bit more challenging. But I admit that safety isn't properly addressed for now.
The vague plan is to have building sets of exterior shells - or plainly speaking what in CR are the castle parts in the knight's pack. Designing them a little bit like factory buildings will enable you to construct a shell for every building and your clonks. It's just more challenging but also flexible and fun. In case you know Terraria, it vaguely takes the same approach. These ideas aren't in the Design Document like you said:
> there aren't planned structures that actually are more advancedand look like buildings or houses.
Simply because that's a longshot plan and needn't necessarily to be in the first settlement development.
> My idea here is to have more advanced buildings. [...]
Personally, I feel all this would be better belong in a custom pack (improved industry pack or something) but not in the very basic objects of the game. In addition, I'd be careful about predicting the real importance of all this in the game. Surely, if your goal is to construct a blimp, you will go through the hassle of constructing all building tiers but apart from that, why bother? The tier 1 sawmill will produce wood which is often then just fine and exactly what you need. You won't build tier 2 if the building is just "more efficient" as long as the efficiancy isn't needed. If the tier 3 buildings will eventually get you a really good power plant, one will rather construct just five tier 1 mini power plants and achieve the same thing with probably less effort.
I don't say your vision is impossible to make but rather extremely bothersome to balance. Also, it kind of shifts the focus of the player away from the important part (reaching the scenario goal) to the less important part (constructing buildings that support you in reaching the goal). A settlement scenario is seldom solely about just constructing buildings but doing something else. So better not stress on the construction part to much.
> They don't make use of being 3D rendered at all.
Indeed. Giving the whole game more visible depth would be nice. Also some cool animations or changes to existing animations that stress more on the model being 3D. Sadly, we lack a very crucial thing right now: enthusiastic modellers with lots of time to model for us. Improving existing stuff a little bit would be nice.
> In fact the buildings would't even need backsites! If you want to save polys, cut off the site that doesn't face the player.
Well, yes, that's right. That's why we cut the backsites ;) If you want to take a look at the models, you can open the .mesh files using OgreMeshy. I do admit that the foundry does still has its backsite but almost all of the other buildings don't.
> What I don't like is that linekits are gone. Why? Why don't we want to connect buildings with cables?
Transporting electricity just didn't seemed as an important enough task for such a nice feature that lines are. So take away the visual distraction of electric lines when used together with other types of (possible) lines and use it for something else. Really, connecting two buildings to power one up just isn't that fun. You say it's no deal but after I did it for the tenth time during my game, I really get bored. There isn't even thinking involved. I can't optimise my network or something, I just start the line whereever and that's it. A stupid no-brainer.
Even connecting pipes to the pump was more fun because I could decide where to pump empty and where to direct the outflow. That was neat (and that's the reason why pipes stayed in the game!).
As for the mechanism: It is not there to replace the linekits because that indeed would be stupid. I apologise if the Design Document is a bit too vague on this topic but it isn't in particular part of the first settlement development. Mechanisms are just an idea to take up the cool visual lines and to do something else: Connecting mechanical parts with each other. Connect a lever with a door, connect a weight-triggered pressure plate with an arrow trap etc. As you can guess from the absence of all these objects in the current object pack, that too is a longshot idea. But imho a way more fun feature to have than predetermined power lines.
As for the flags: I guess that's more of a balancing decision and for now set. To have weak spots in your settlement that need protection. To not just have a player spam cheap wind generators everywhere and thus have power everywhere but to control the ability of the player to have power (ideas are to make flags more expensive thus limiting the player - if it's challenging and fun as well is due to testing).
Also, as opposed to a completely wireless system, it provides some clarity. If just every power producer had its own energy radius how would you set out connectivity rules? Does every consumer inside the radius extends it? Or every other producer? Because the downside would be that you were forced construct your power plants around your most important consumer especially if it needs lots of power.
> And iirc the range was only displayed when requested.
Well, that's possible to do and it fact not a bad idea. But not necessarily of the topmost priority ;)
> When I build the foundry next to the flag, it automatically sells the produced gold bars.
Yes, kinda bad. I'd like to have another selling mechanism, too (like simply putting the stuff into the flag).
> Also, when I would throw the gold nugget into the foundry (it doesn't work or isn't included atm)
It should be included. If it doesn't work, something's broken.
> But why is the hammering gone? Because standing in front of it is boring?
Exactly. It is not especially fun. Moreover, if you do not have the luxury of possessing a second clonk (because he died or you're just at the beginning of the game), basically the construction phase is like someone stepping next to you and just pausing the game for 10 seconds. You do nothing else than staring at the screen. Even the "but I have two clonks" argument isn't too good because it still is arbitrarily forcing you to do something else and wait. Often (or even more than often) you just want to use the new building right away because that's why you built it in the first place.
> Self constructing buildings don't make sense.
Luckily, in a virtual game we can just rid ourselves from the burdens of reality and have whatever we think is more supportive to the fun factor of the game. ;) Meaning that realism isn't the first priority in the consideration of certain implementations.
I will not getting too much into controls, hoping someone else will do that. Just this:
> Right now if I had 3 rocks in my inventory and I want to throw all three away
You can drop items with shift + number, you don't need to select them.
> Sometimes you can interact ('space') with two objects at the same time, for example a lorry in front of a foundry.
Yes, a little bit confusing and as far as I know due to change. So far [space] means "do every possible interaction" which in case of a foundry and a lorry standing in front of it, is to do something with both. If you want to pick one of the two specifically, you need to use space + number (the number is shown at the bottom of the screen where every possible interaction is shown).
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
>> In fact the buildings would't even need backsites! If you want to save polys, cut off the site that doesn't face the player.
>Well, yes, that's right. That's why we cut the backsites ;) If you want to take a look at the models, you can open the .mesh files using OgreMeshy. I do admit that the
>foundry does still has its backsite but almost all of the other buildings don't.
Doesn't matter. The engine cuts away back-facing polygons automatically (->backface culling), it is not worth the time to bother cutting them away manually.
> Doesn't matter. The engine cuts away back-facing polygons automatically (->backface culling), it is not worth the time to bother cutting them away manually.
They'd still have to go through the engine internal mesh handling and probably some internal geometry processing in the driver before they get culled. I wonder if it would make sense for the engine to remove triangles in advance during loading if they're pointing away from the viewer and aren't part of an animation.
![[ca]](/mwf/flags/ca.png "Canada")
I generally do it simply so I have less to texture, thus enabling the front-side to have more detail for a smaller texture size. Also, it's less work. ;)
>If you succeed in luring your enemy into the base, he gets beaten to death without any chance which is plainly unfair. Also the practical invulnerability is bad.
Yeah, buildings are hard to destroy and you can hide in them. And that's why some people like to play basemelees a lot. But actually these people are a minorety. (Maybe because it is annoying for some people to have an enemy hide in his overpowered castle) Most people prefer fast rounds like minor melee. But there is one basemelee scenario a lot of people seem to play. I'm speaking about nothing less than OilWars. And in that scenario people build like 10 overpowered bunkers and a vast number of guard towers to defend theirselfs. Hm, you could say they play it because of the guns and rifles and all the technical stuff the EKE pack provides. but there are other scenarios included in that pack that feature all that stuff, but don't get played that often. Why do you think people like to play this scen? (Actually, I don't like it that much^^) Maybe just because it's a attrition warfare, but there are versions around with more and less money provided.
Hm, so basically what I want to say here is that it can be fun to have bases and buildings, depending on the scenario.
Also, here's another idea. Why not consider having other goals then just 'kill every enemy'? Maybe a race for ressources. E.g. the player with the most orechunks in his house wins. You could try to rob your enemy's base or mine. Or a goal called 'supremacy' where you have to own >50% of the landscape. Or 'who builds the most houses'?
>When you don't know where to go, you just stay with your clonks in the base. Again, very cheap for protection against ~everything (except the single, well targeted meteor that wipes out your home)
>You don't have such a crucial weak spot that'll burn away while you're not watching
With the crucial weak spot, you mean the houses? Your Clonks can burn to death, too when you are not watching and the buildings without doors can burn away, too.
Also, I would not say it's a cheap protection. You have to collect resources and build them, at least.^^ A cheap protection is, when the player just stands in a spot where they are unreachable for hazards, or builds a loam wall and hides behind it.
The 'shell' buildings are a smart idea I think. But the execution could be difficult. For one, if you want to have a building where you can fight in , it would have to be at least as big, so that you can jump aroud in it. And second, it would override all the reasons, why you don't want people to go into buildings. The protection would be there again, so you might as well have normal buildings with doors.
Hmm, I still think it would be nice to see your Clonks build a real village with all kinds of different houses, because... They deserve more than just a few shelters. Clonks are awesome, they settle in every corner of their clonk planet, have airships and submarines. Therefore they sould know how to build proper houses with roofes and doors, they are great craftsmen after all!^^
>The tier 1 sawmill will produce wood which is often then just fine and exactly what you need. You won't build tier 2 if the building is just "more efficient" as long as the efficiancy isn't needed.
That's why higher tiers should produce different materials (e.g. the wooden planks, that could be needed to get a blimp), wich would make the prodution chains longer and the game more interesting.
>Also, it kind of shifts the focus of the player away from the important part (reaching the scenario goal) to the less important part (constructing buildings that support you in reaching the goal)
Wowow stop! :D I don't think that's a bad thing. Have you never played a settlement scenario where you enjoyed settling and building stuff more than reaching the goal. I did. I often caught myself delaying the completion of the round by figuring out the most difficult way to archieve the goal, just because it was fun to build stuff. I often did all kinds of stuff in settle rounds that had nothing to do with the goal. 'Because I could, and it was free.' :) Just look at all the big settlement screenshots in the Clonk Center. I even startet settlement rounds with no specific goal, just to build stuff and then after 16 hours look at it and think about what more I could do.
>There isn't even thinking involved. I can't optimise my network or something, I just start the line whereever and that's it. A stupid no-brainer.
You are right there, the only thinking process in the old clonk I can think of is to decide wich building to choose when you want to connect a new building. (Because you will run wild when you realise the windmill that had 15 lines connected to it just got destroyed by a S2 comet!^^)
But anyway, just because it's a nobrainer shouldn't make it obsolete. You could say the same thing about bringing 5 rocks to a construction site. No thinking involved, either. But these things are just part of the game and power lines should be, too.
Solutions for the 'no thinking' could also be achieved. Maybe allow the line to only have 5 kinks, or a limited range. Or introduce power loss over far distances. Maybe you would have to have some relays, crafted in the workshop inbetween then.
>Moreover, if you do not have the luxury of possessing a second clonk (because he died or you're just at the beginning of the game), basically the construction phase is like someone stepping next to you and just pausing the game for 10 seconds. You do nothing else than staring at the screen. Even the "but I have two clonks" argument isn't too good because it still is arbitrarily forcing you to do something else and wait.
Having the building build itself in 2 seconds doesn't just look right. Even if you just have to stand 5 seconds hammering, it would help I think. To deepen the game and give you the feeling of creating something. Even if it costs 5 seconds of the play time. Is there actually a 'construction A.I.' planned? You know like in CR, where the Clonk can automatically carry the material to the construction site and build it? If not, you can just say carrying the objects to the site, is a waste of gameplay time, too.
Okay, I'm done.^^
Oh and thanks for the explaination of the controls!^^
> Hm, so basically what I want to say here is that it can be fun to have bases and buildings, depending on the scenario.
You mentioned Oilwars. That's a third party scenario (aka not in the original pack) and that's fine. On the development side, there are still entrances possible. So a pack like EKE could easily make buildings with entrances if wanted.
> With the crucial weak spot, you mean the houses?
Exactly. Because usually all your clonks are in there and catch fire when the house burns down. Without this central spot it's less likely your clonks will stand in the same place.
> Also, I would not say it's a cheap protection. You have to collect resources and build them, at least.
Well, no. You start with a base ;)
> A cheap protection is, when the player just stands in a spot where they are unreachable for hazards, or builds a loam wall and hides behind it.
This was always possible in CR but never came close to getting a major settlement tactic. This alone tells me it can't be that appealing ;)
> Hmm, I still think it would be nice to see your Clonks build a real village with all kinds of different houses, because...
I don't think that'll happen any soon. We're struggling to get at least models done for the buildings we want to make, so don't expect variations and stuff in the near future.
> That's why higher tiers should produce different materials (e.g. the wooden planks, that could be needed to get a blimp), wich would make the prodution chains longer and the game more interesting.
Yes, I got that. Especially the blimp will get harder to produce because of the planned cotton production. Apart from that the doctrine is: Keep it simple. Everything else is stuff for a custom object pack someone can make ;)
Hi, thanks for the feedback! :)Additionally to what Clonkonaut said:
>> doors and advanced buildings
Like Clonkonaut said: "basier" looking bases are just not part of the first release. There were thoughts and discussions about using ClonkRage-castle-part-style buildings to build a nicer base. That means: A base looks a lot less like a cluster of disconnected stands if they are contained in a nice, homely castle :)
That castle would also provide the shelter for your Clonks.
>> electricity and line kits
First of all: The flag is your "base" - if you think that way it makes more sense: Buildings in your base belong to you and can share electricity. Buildings outside your base are just some random constructions in the landscape ;)
The linekits are gone because of two main reasons:
- They were not really intuitive and easy-to-handle in ClonkRage: Sure, it's easy enough to connect two buildings. But if you have twenty buildings interconnected and your windmill (which connects to 15 of them) is hit by a meteor you are in quite a trouble: You have to re-do all the line stuff. And for that you have to remember what the windmill connected too. Yes, there would have been other possibilities to solve that. They would have made the line stuff even more unintuitive, though.
- Lines are pretty cool. They allow a player to do stuff that is visible and has some effect. See pipes: You can do with them whatever you want, pump liquid from A to B and back. With electric lines you could not do something like that: You had to connect A to B and that was it. No thinking involved, no creativity involved, nothing.
So we'd rather have those cool lines for something the player can actually design and construct, instead of using them as just another resource where no thinking is involved :)
>> selling at the flag
True, that was more a we-need-something-quick solution. And it worked a lot better when you couldn't construct anything out of gold :)
>So we'd rather have those cool lines for something the player can actually design and construct, instead of using them as just another resource where no thinking is involved :)
But having electrical lines connect two buildings doesn't exclude having other cool lines to play around with.
![[gb]](/mwf/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
> So I built a windmill right next to it.
Hm, I imagined this to actually work, via a special case essentially saying that windmills also power the immediate surroundings, even without a flag present. No idea whether that's easy to do with the current code base, though.
> When throwing away an item, the hand (selection indicator) should go to the next occupied spot.
Edit: And not wanting to complicate an already over-discussed issue, but this sounds pretty sensible to me too. Not necessarily exactly like this, but couldn't the rocks at least "stack"? Maybe that could even be a bit more intelligent, so when you throw a flint you get other throwable weapons in order of "likeness"...
If you do this you always run the risk of people not knowing that they could use flags to propagate energy at all. Then they'll end up building extra windmills beside every single building.
>that's easy to do with the current code base, though.
I am not just saying this because it is probably not easy: I don't know whether that's a good idea :)
Reasoning being that you don't want to the player to get into the habit of building settlements without flags?
Yes, basically.For me the notion is "hey, this here is your base. Rather build stuff in it, will you".
Maybe even show a warning when building outside your base radius ("You are constructing outside of your base. This building won't have access to electricity!").
I think it's more about hinting the player at how electricity works here. I doubt we'll get more gameplay benefits from being able to solely power with generators (without bases).
>For example the windmill. (the electrical one) Turn it 45° and let the rotors and let them point into the players camera. Or even better when the wind turns, the whole 'head' of the building turns. There are windmills that do that irl, too.
Hey, nice idea! By the way, the buildings area already placed in random degrees facing the screen, so if you build several windmills, they all are visible from a little different direction.
>the buildings area already placed in random degrees facing the screen, so if you build several windmills, they all are visible from a little different direction.
Oh, I didn't notice that. Maybe because it didn't happen too often for me in the game, that it's requried to have that many windmills, in a so early release. There isn't just a lot to build yet.^^
Also what are your thoughts about the vanishing point? Is it possible to implement? I think it would make everything look more plastic and dynamic.
![[at]](/mwf/flags/at.png "Austria")
> [Controls Stuff]
I guess I'm kinda the responsible guy for the current controls and UI. We've already put quite some work into better controls.. but I fully agree that they still suck sometimes. ;) (and some things are hard to communicate)
Check out http://blog.openclonk.org/2012/03/shiny-new-controlsui/ and http://blog.openclonk.org/2012/05/carry-heavy-and-construction-sites/ for some info to the actual controls. http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Controls has all the key-combinations listed up, but everything of that is also doable by simply clicking on the stuff with the mouse! (for example the lorry/foundry thingies)
Furthermore we got more stuff planned/in discussion: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=2483 (involvement/discussion is welcome ;))
As you might notice that thread already is about a month old, but I stil plan on working on that. I just don't have time/motivation for it at the moment, with a month of work and a bachelor project to code at the moment.
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