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- - By Andriel Date 2012-10-08 21:28 Edited 2012-10-09 17:56
Shortly beforehand, I'm using the development snapshot: 2012-10-05 19:03 (a3e88790084d).
Hallo,
I'd like to give some feedback about things I noticed today testing things out a bit:

1.Tutorial 04 - Melee Weapons: Check out the stone gates, some of them are positioned badly and don't open.

2.Mount Brame: Intro is completely broken. I tested it ten times and Ruth just didn't manage to throw me down the hillside. Also the clonk does not move properly to his destination at the hilleside, it kind of gets stuck. (Just a sidenote, it would be nice if the script checked how many players are participating so Ruth talks to you in the right person.)

3.Shiver Peak: There are six chests on the ground at the beginning and one is in the ceiling. I just wanted to ask if that is intended because it looks a little bit strange.

Now some general notes:
1.Really important: Firestones should always be collected automatically. I died so often just because my clonk didn't collect a firestone while digging. I also don't understand why you often collect coal, gold and other stuff automatically and sometimes not.

2.Using the pickaxe is currently quiet a pain, because there always remain tiny bits of material which you can't remove with the pickaxe. These chunks sometimes make it impossible to actually get through your pickaxed tunnel and are very annoying.

3.Zooming works really well, whether I zoom completely out or completely in, I have constant 40 FPS. With one exception, the axe. I don't know if it is just my sytem, but I really don't think so. Anyway, if I play in default zoom and chop down a tree, everything is fine. But when I zoom in and chop down a tree, there is a massive performance loss (only 17 FPS). I have no idea what could cause this, because all the other tools work fine at any zoom level. Maybe somebody could test this out to see if I'm the only one experiencing this.

4.The teleglove is awesome.

5.If I ALT-TAB out of the game and reenter, I can still see the windows bar above OpenClonk. I guess this happens because I have a rather uncommon setup. I'm using a 23.6" TV as a monitor, resolution is 1768x992, and I have my windows bar attached to the left side of the screen. Also, when I first downloaded and started the development snapshot, exactly the same happened to me as described by Zapper here. (I also had the same solution.)

6.Here I'm a little uncertain because I don't really know what was going on. This is what happened: I created the first player and named him Andriel. I played a bit. I created a second player for testing purposes, named him Clonk, changed the colour, the style and the controls (to gamepad). I played some Back to the Rocks scenarios with both players enabled. Then I got an Assertion failed error (Unfortunately I didn't write it down, just clicked ignore and went back to the game). Suddenly, the player "Clonk" was deleted, but when I tried to create a new player with the same name, it said "Name is already used".

7."Choose style" in the create new player dialogue doesn't seem to work properly, e.g. I picked the Clonk with shield and sword but actually got the steampunk women ingame.

And finally a few feature wishes:
1.What would be ultracool (but in fact completely unimportant) is a big 3D preview of the Clonk style in the new player dialogue instead of the tiny pictures which are currently there.

2.In my opinion a very important feature is to be able to go backwards with your shield pointing forward. This game is a perfect example of how I imagine shield use to be in OpenClonk (It's also a wonderful game).

3.Some audio feedback if you hit an opponent (or a friend) with your sword would be nice.
Reply
Parent - By Maikel Date 2012-10-08 22:02
Thanks, fixed 1., some of the other stuff is already on someone's todo list but will take longer ;)
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-08 22:07
Hello and thanks for your feedback :)

Here are some remarks:

> Really important: Firestones should always be collected automatically.


That indeed is a problem. I don't think the pickup rules aren't really getting through to the player. Just to clear this up: You will never automatically pick something up except at least one of your hand slots (so left and right click binding) is empty. Unfortunately, the usual case is you having two items selected so the firestone will always drop down. The 'right' way to dig would be to select the shovel and one empty slot.

> I also don't understand why you often collect coal, gold and other stuff automatically and sometimes not.


No rule without exceptions (and sadly another thing that's not explained in a proper way): You never pick up something except when having an empty slot selected. But you can pick up stuff into not selected slots by pressing a directional key that's heading 'into a wall' i.e. when standing on the ground press down, when scaling on a wall press left or right and when hanging from the ceiling press up. As you don't know about this (and are never told) you might get confused into thinking these are random pickups.

> But when I zoom in and chop down a tree, there is a massive performance loss (only 17 FPS).


Can you just zoom into a tree (without the axe)? Trees are more probable for causing this.

> What would be ultracool (but in fact completely unimportant) is a big 3D preview of the Clonk style in the new player dialogue instead of the tiny pictures which are currently there.


Yes, that's on the 'cool but not important stuff' todo list already ;)

> Some audio feedback if you hit an opponent (or a friend) with your sword would be nice.


Strange. There is (or at least should be) a nice and satisfying hit sound.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-10-09 07:45

>That indeed is a problem. I don't think the pickup rules aren't really getting through to the player. Just to clear this up: You will never automatically pick something up except at least one of your hand slots (so left and right click binding) is empty. [...] The 'right' way to dig would be to select the shovel and one empty slot.


Which does not help at all when you dig through f.e. ice, sand,... as ice chunks will pop into your hand as soon as you free up your slot. Does it happen in earth/sand too?
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-09 10:12
One remark here: since boni implemented one-hand-controls in the controls branch, we could think about a solution without an empty other hand.
I believe that can turn out more intuitive and clean than anything we could hack around the two hands.
Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-10-09 10:22
"Hold collect button"!!!
Doubt it'd make it in the release though.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-09 10:52
More like right-click the loam ;)
Or just automatically collect falling(!) objects into backpack while digging. And call it reflexes.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-09 10:25

> Does it happen in earth/sand too?


No. I switched that off when I made the bucket.
Reply
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-10-09 13:25
Oh, nevermind then.
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2012-10-09 14:01 Edited 2012-10-09 19:24
>Can you just zoom into a tree (without the axe)? Trees are more probable for causing this.
Okay, I just tried this, so it's definitely not the axe but the trees. At max zoom I only get 10 FPS in the small forest in "Crash Landing" (11 trees)! Is this supposed to be changed? Ain't trees just trunk + textured planes?

>Strange. There is (or at least should be) a nice and satisfying hit sound.
Ok, if I turn up the speakers, I think I can hear something, but the "sword hitting metal" sound is way louder. This sound is played like always when you hit something but often does not fit. For example when you strike the straw men or an enemy.
Reply
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2012-10-09 17:01
Cool, so now I am not the only one :D ck!!!

Can you give some details about your graphics card (driver version) and settings (AA, resolution)?

It seems to be more pronounced on better graphic cards and higher settings, here is the bug report:

http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=732
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2012-10-09 18:38
GPU: nvidia Geforce GTX 560Ti
Driver version: 306.23
AA: At the time of the report it was 16x, but I noticed that there is no performance loss in "Crash Landing" with AA turned off (40FPS) and a lot with 32x AA (10FPS)
Resolution: 1768x992 (native)
As Renderer, I use OpenGL, because both "DirectX" and "DirectX Sowtware" are greyed out (I don't know why).
This problem seems to be associated strongly with the Anti Aliasing. Maybe there is some sort of Transparency-AA going on?
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Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2012-10-09 18:47

> This problem seems to be associated strongly with the Anti Aliasing. Maybe there is some sort of Transparency-AA going on?


Maikel, didn't we find out that this is not related to Anti Aliasing with the tests that you did?
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Parent - By Maikel Date 2012-10-09 19:04
Don't know anymore to be honest.
Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-10-10 15:08

>> This problem seems to be associated strongly with the Anti Aliasing. Maybe there is some sort of Transparency-AA going on?
>Maikel, didn't we find out that this is not related to Anti Aliasing with the tests that you did?


Iirc you can turn that stuff on and off in the driver. So SOMEBODY with a Gtx 560Ti could test that. *coughcough*
Parent - By Andriel Date 2012-10-10 18:50 Edited 2012-10-10 18:54
Okay, I did some tests:
First I turned on everything I found in the driver settings, AA, Transparency-AA, AF... But it had no noticable impact on performance or graphics. (Maybe because I use "OpenGL"?) Then I went to the ingame settings: I turned AA to 32x - 10 FPS in the forest. AA off - 40 FPS.
I also tried out things like 16 bit graphics, disabling multimedia timer or "Shaders", but nothing changed. Of course decreasing the resolution helps: 32x AA + 720x576 = 40 FPS (very blurry), 15 FPS at 1600x900. (Every resolution between didn'work: "Error changing resolution: Der Vorgang wurde erfolgreich beendet." (Although I set the language to english!))
Looks like Anti-Aliasing is the only setting that really changes performance in forests...
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Parent - - By Anonymous [nl] Date 2012-10-09 18:28
Random person here.

    > I also don't understand why you often collect coal, gold and other stuff automatically and sometimes not.

No rule without exceptions (and sadly another thing that's not explained in a proper way): You never pick up something except when having an empty slot selected. But you can pick up stuff into not selected slots by pressing a directional key that's heading 'into a wall' i.e. when standing on the ground press down, when scaling on a wall press left or right and when hanging from the ceiling press up. As you don't know about this (and are never told) you might get confused into thinking these are random pickups.

Right now, whenever I jump, I collect whatever is at my feet. So, pressing up always picks up stuff for me, not just when hanging.
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-09 20:55
Hm, you're right. It's bugged now so that every direction press triggers the pickup.
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-10-10 15:10
According to the controls it has always been like that. I haven't changed that. :I
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-10-10 15:20
There is no special logic that checks the direction and procedure. Collect just has a lower priority than the movement and jump controls, so if they are successfull (=do something), collect won't be triggered. Exception is the gamepad controls that do have jump on a different button than <up>. When using the gamepad, one should be able to collect stuff while standing when pressing up.
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-10-10 15:37
Just checked, according to the script it's shouldn't happen. However I just discovered that Collect and Jump have the same priority, I guess that's the reason. *fix*
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-08 22:52
Thanks for the feedback!

>2.In my opinion a very important feature is to be able to go backwards with your shield pointing forward. This game is a perfect example of how I imagine shield use to be in OpenClonk (It's also a wonderful game).


Yes, thanks for reminding. I really have to finally implement that :)

Always great to have someone give so much feedback. Feel free to always rant here about everything that doesn't feel right about the game!

PS: I'll probably test/fix/reply tomorrow again
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-14 18:45

>Yes, thanks for reminding. I really have to finally implement that :)


Walking backwards with the shield is possible now
Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-10-09 12:18

> 1.Really important: Firestones should always be collected automatically. I died so often just because my clonk didn't collect a firestone while digging. I also don't understand why you often collect coal, gold and other stuff automatically and sometimes not.


I think it's fine and part of the game that you have to be careful when digging out firestones. I always dig until I almost got it, then I scale to the wall and collect it sideways. Only thing I think could be improved is the collection radius (See also #810)
- - By Andriel Date 2012-10-09 17:53
Some other things I just noticed:
1. I just spent some hours trying to hunt what I thought was a very strange jumping bug, until I realized it was kind of a jump strike down sword special attack happening when you press the mouse button near your clonk. This, together with the "pick up stuff with directional key" thing really should be explained properly in the tutorials.

2. Tutorial 1: When he explains the inventory system, the arrows still point where the old inventory was. (at the bottom)

3. The grappling hook is currently no fun at all to use. First, the hook should be pulled back in quiet a bit faster so you can shoot at the ceiling, swing, pull the rope back in and quickly shoot again. Also, swinging around feels unsatisfactory because the swinging range is to low. This game is a perfect example of how I imagine grappling hook use to be in OpenClonk (It's also a wonderful game).

Some notes on carry heavy objects:

1. The boompack attaches at a wrong position. (Which looks actually quiet funny)

2. Carrying heavy objects should have a greater impact on agility. Furthermore, you shouldn't be able to throw it as fast and as far as a little rock for example. (Of course it would be especially nice to have a different, more fitting animation for throwing heavy objects) Generally, the clonk should be more cumbersome in dealing with heavy objects.

3. In some animations (like swimming, tumbling ...) heavy objects are not attached. For swimming, it would be nice to have the clonk holding e.g. a barrel with his hands and just paddling with his feet.

4. It took me a while to figure out how to use a gunpowder barrel on a cannon to "fuel" it. This should be either easier or just well explained. (In the second tutorial - multiple clonks)

5. The cannon should show how much gunpowder is left somewhere.

6. The cannon debug messages need to be removed.

Now some more general things:

1. Currently it happens a bit to often that if you run up a hill and jump, the clonk does some funky backflips(also known as the tumble action)

2. Is it (or will it be) possible to control multiple clonks at once like in CR?

3. This might seem trivial but it should be very easy to change: In my opinion the wood chipping particles live to short. If you're chopping a tree they appear and almost immediately fade out.

4. I don't understand what the energy bars at energy producers and consumers want to tell me...

5. What does look bad at the moment are burning objects like trees and clonks because a)the flame often doesn't fit their shape and b)there are ~no burned versions of them. This needs to change in the future but I'm sure it will.

6. Smoke goes through materials. I don't know if that is intended, but what I always liked in CR was the smoke from, for example, an underground foundry which wafted through the abandoned mine, immersing everything in a mysterious shimmer...*atmosphere* (I would really like to see this effect even stronger in OC than in CR)
That's it for now. (I hope this is more readable now, I will also edit the first post)
Reply
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-10 07:17

>1. I just spent some hours trying to hunt what I thought was a very strange jumping bug, until I realized it was kind of a jump strike down sword special attack happening when you press the mouse button near your clonk. This, together with the "pick up stuff with directional key" thing really should be explained properly in the tutorials.


This is on my todo to implement some more visual/audio effect for this attack, so that it doesn't feel like a bug :x

>2. Is it (or will it be) possible to control multiple clonks at once like in CR?


Probably not - even in CR your additional Clonks often got stuck because of the weak pathfinding - and the OC pathfinding can not yet cope with the control-while-jumping and other stuff

>4. I don't understand what the energy bars at energy producers and consumers want to tell me...


Mh, that's especially interesting for me. What did you think they meant (before I give the solution)? And what was the most non-understandable part about it?

To the rest:
Those are great points to be fixed this weekend, now was a good time for reporting them :)
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2012-10-10 13:12
>Mh, that's especially interesting for me. What did you think they meant (before I give the solution)? And what was the most non-understandable part about it?
First I built a flagpole and a windgenerator. A bar showed up at the windgenerator and I thought:"Ah, ok, now the windgenerator is producing energy and the bar shows me how much!".
Then I built an elevator. After five minutes, I figured out that I need to use the mouse to dig down. I then drove around a bit and noticed that the bars are showing me how much(?) energy the elevator is consuming (Which I think would be a bit unnecessary).
Then I built a chemlab, and produced dynamite, this process needs energy and there was a bar at the chemlab now. The windgenerator produced ~half the max energy, but my chemlab didn't work, to little energy. Then I noticed that there was a full bar at the elevator all the time, like it would consume energy(bug?). It looked like the elevator was "stealing" the chemlabs energy. That was the most non-understandable part.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-10 21:00
I guess I understand the confusion now
In /theory/ the elevator should stop consuming energy if another building needs it, but there might be a bug of course.
For clarity the elevator should be changed to never need energy when not used, you are right there.

>showing me how much(?) energy the elevator is consuming (Which I think would be a bit unnecessary).


I decided to keep that in to give the player a feeling of how much energy things need and produce - if the wind generator produces three bars of energy and the workshop needs four, it won't work (and the player knows how much is missing).
Also it makes building a steam engine a lot more impressive :)

Mh, the elevator should show the energy bar only when it is constructed at the moment, did it show the energy all the time?
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2012-10-11 05:56

> Mh, the elevator should show the energy bar only when it is constructed at the moment, did it show the energy all the time?


It showed it when it was constructed. Then, when I drove around, the windgenerator stopped rotating, it showed up, when the generator resumed rotating, it showed up. I didn't care about it when I built the chemlab so I can't tell you anything about that. When I tried to produce something, the bar shortly showed up and disappeared all the time. (I think it was green)
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-11 06:57
Mh, yes. The energy bar showing up another time when the building goes from not-enough-power to enough-power was intended. Could be that this is too annoying, but I am not sure
- - By Andriel Date 2012-10-10 14:52
More feedback!
I just played a round of gold rush and noticed some things:
1. It began to rain, but the raindrops neither came from "above the sky"(like in CR), nor fell out of clouds. It looked like they should fall out of clouds, just that there were no clouds where there should have been some. (The rain came out of nowhere)

2. It is nice that some trees are in the foreground and some are in the background, but if you chop down a foreground tree, the clonk just hacks the air behind the tree. A good solution would be to "mirror" the animation so that the clonk hacks from behind.

3. If you stand in front of eleven or more interactable objects (like sproutberry bushes) the interaction bar at the bottom counts: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 [NO SYMBOL] [NO SYMBOL] .... Maybe there shouldn't be displayed more than ten objects at the same time.

4. I just wanted to mention that if you follow your "lots of, but small veins" policy, it is hard to find a place for an elevator where you can dig more than 1m down. If that's intended, just ignore this point.

5. If you drive up and down with the elevator, the lever in the cabin does not move. (And it looks very 2D)

6. I don't like the elevator sound. (especially start and stop) There should be more "shshshshshshsh" and less "bumm kracks engine die".

7. The elevator should be better animated. The winch should actually rotate, and if the elevator moves, the rope shouldn't just be a distorted piece of half-transparency.

8. An idea: A base melee mode where the enemy has to chop down your flag pole! (and vice versa)

9. If you zoom around, the moon and the stars move too, which is cool. But they move very strangely. Try zooming out and in and watch the moon and the stars. They perform kind of a bow, and if you zoom in to close, they suddenly disappear.

10. I think being able to climb under water is very annoying, because:
       -It causes bugs
       -You can climb under water but neither hangle nor dig?
       -It makes navigation in narrow canals very difficult because the clonk always starts to climb and therefore often gets stuck.

11. If you place a building (sketch), the sketch doesn't change the environment, but if you put all the material into it and it starts building itself, it suddenly terraforms itself a flat "basement" ground and you could get stuck. (See this bug)

12. The chemlab looks very unfinished, the pipes in the background look 2D, so does the valve and I don't what the white thing to the left should be. Also, the glass bowl looks like metal. Ain't there transparent textures in the engine? (If this sounds unfriendly, I'm sorry)

13. I produced dynamite in "Gold Rush" and threw it, I heard the "shshsh" but there was no explosion sound. (I also threw flints, they had a sound) However, when I tried it in another scenario, there was an explosion sound.
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-10-10 15:18 Edited 2012-10-10 15:44

>3. If you stand in front of eleven or more interactable objects (like sproutberry bushes) the interaction bar at the bottom counts: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 [NO SYMBOL] [NO SYMBOL] .... Maybe there shouldn't be displayed more than ten objects at the same time.


Done. However, that usually ~never happens under normal circumstances, luckily. :)

>5. If you drive up and down with the elevator, the lever in the cabin does not move. (And it looks very 2D)


The elevator case actually IS 2D. ;)

>11. If you place a building (sketch), the sketch doesn't change the environment, but if you put all the material into it and it starts building itself, it suddenly terraforms itself a flat "basement" ground and you could get stuck. (See this bug)


This is intended, as you can also remove the construction sites. Only when the building process is "decided" (as in all material is there) it terraforms the landscape. The beeing stuck part is a bug, of course.
Parent - By Andriel Date 2012-10-10 18:36
>Done. However, that usually ~never happens under normal circumstances, luckily. :)
This happened to me in a regular round "Gold Rush" with ten sproutberry bushes and an elevator cabin. Probably a replication bug?
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2012-10-11 10:39

>The elevator case actually IS 2D. ;)


Elevator case should be 3D, unless someone changed it. Animating the winch would not be hard; I'll do that, but someone may have to go in and script the animation in after. :/
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 10:49

> but someone may have to go in and script the animation


Shouldn't be the problem.
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2012-10-11 12:45
Done. The cable may pose a bit of a problem; I would suggest turning the whole thing solid grey. While this would remove some nice detail, it would make it 'blend' properly into the 2D cable (would also need to be painted solid grey), and it wouldn't require fiddly texture scrolling.

Currently the 2D cable texture stretches and doesn't look quite right alongside the 3D cable due to that.
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 12:51

> I would suggest turning the whole thing solid grey.


Agreed.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-10-11 16:40
Oh, please not! I spend some time to make the texture wrap over the rope in a way that it is not distorted!

Isn't there a way to make the solid grey cable textured instead?
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 17:06

> Isn't there a way to make the solid grey cable textured instead?


No, I don't think so. Except someone does something with the engine so it's possible to have infinitely stretched objects with a texture.
The current cable (like the old elevator from CR) uses FacetTargetStretch (ActMap entry). Maybe someone could do this but it's some work for just a little effect.
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Parent - - By Andriel Date 2012-10-11 17:24
Why don't just use a real rope attached  to cabin and elevator? Then you even had a nice "cabin swinging in the wind" effect when building the elevator at a cliff.
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 18:39
We don't have a real rope. And don't bother mentioning the thing the grappling hook uses. That's not a real rope and will never work like one ;)
And effects like "swinging in the wind" don't come for free. We don't have a physics engine so I'd be horrible to script something like that.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-10-11 18:48

>We don't have a real rope.


That is not quite true. We have the rope from the grappler. Does that have a texture?
If so, one could link the elevator case visually(!! don't use the rope physics yet) with such a rope
Parent - By Andriel Date 2012-10-11 19:16

>Does that have a texture?


It has.
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 21:31
Yeah, the grappling rope works with hundreds of overlays (and of course it's not quite exact since it's limited to the tile size).
I don't really feel like adapting that code.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-10-11 19:33
Shouldnt be too hard to implement a FacetTargetTile property
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2012-10-11 21:31
I guess there's time till Monday ;)
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2012-10-12 02:02
We'd also need a way to animate the 3D cable texture properly. The texture scrolling animation the foundry utilizes wouldn't exactly work in this situation, because it is either 'on' or 'off', and cannot be paused/resumed in the middle of the animation. ck might have a solution for this.

In preparation for that, I could separate the cable texture from the elevator texture to allow scrolling.

>Shouldnt be too hard to implement a FacetTargetTile property


Wouldn't this then allow tileable backgrounds (as objects, separate from skyBack)? ie: x-tiling mountains which are drawn above stars/moon etc.
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Parent - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2012-10-12 10:14

> ck might have a solution for this.


You can have each frame of the animation as a separate material and then switch between them with SetMeshMaterial(). Not very elegant, but should work with what is currently available... I guess I could also easily add a function to start/stop/(re)set/whatever the texture animation state of a (sub)mesh. Let's see what we can do this weekend :)
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Parent - - By Maikel Date 2012-10-10 16:30
13. Also happens for me randomly, very annoying, terribly hard to trace down...
Parent - By Andriel Date 2012-10-10 18:36
Now it also happened with a firestone...
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