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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Rails?
- - By MimmoO Date 2010-01-09 17:55
What about rails for engines? i got this idea when i thought about to model a railroad station. in CR, the engines were more like cars, they didnt need rails to drive.
imo its a bit too unrealistic, even for clonk. therefore, the speed of a steamengine is, compared to the normal walking speed of a clonk, maybe as fast as a bike.

any suggestions?
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-09 18:02
We would have to think about how to make the steam engine any useful then. Right now, the only use I could think of would be as a scenario goal (build railroad tracks from A to B, sort of like the telegraph goal in Western).
Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-01-09 18:09 Edited 2010-01-09 18:36
yes, even in CR it was rather unuseful, due to the ability to be only able to drive left and right. if there was any acclivity(?),  the engine had problems. and once if telt down, you hardly get it up again. for elevators, it is to wide...
maybe those rails could have even unrealistic forms like a verry big rise from 100% (=45°) and more, as in a rollercoaster.

Edit: Attached a photomontage how it could look like. the rails could be build as the loam bridges are now.
while those tracks are build, a script tracks the way, so the engine can follow it easily. when a part of the track is destroyed, the engine cannot pas that part, or just fall down.
if you for example have two horizontal roads next to each other, and the upper one ends, the engine simply falls down on the lower one.
all this together could make a nice railroad-system. of course there must be a limit to the angle when the rails are build, as there is for digging.  the number of waggons/ weight of the objects in the waggons.
this would also force to improve engines, if this was possible. this could also be usefull if you dont have an elevator and there a lower placed mine.
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-09 20:00
But you need to build that. And to build those tracks, you need to get there.
Parent - By MimmoO Date 2010-01-09 23:41
if we use the same system as the loam has atm, only with longer time/length, if works fine for those "short" distances
Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-01-11 10:45
I fully support this idea, but IMO there should be some limits:
Specific segments must be:
A) Placed at most lets say - 250 pixels from a clonk.
B) Placed at angle of 0 to 30 degrees from last segment.
C) Each vertex (connection to next segment) must have a support (column(wooden, or metal) built down to the ground), that can be destroyed, this would involve (probably)quite easy stress calculation, or simply segments would collapse under train, when they have no support.

Also we could have second train, that works w/o railroads, but is slower and weaker.
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Parent - By Enrique [de] Date 2010-01-12 16:52
Maximum would be 30°, i guess.
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Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-01-09 18:11
another idea (i made another branch for this). we could also use those raisl for lorrys aswell.
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-09 18:41
Then we need to ability to board lorries for great roller coasters!
Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-01-09 18:42
yes.
edit: wait, no. lorries cant climb the first hill of a rollercoaster theyselves :(
Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-01-10 00:35
Well, then we need rail pieces with the special ability of pulling lorries. Forget the steam engine!
Parent - - By Nachtschatten Date 2010-01-09 20:02 Edited 2010-01-09 20:10

> in CR, the engines were more like cars, they didnt need rails to drive.
> imo its a bit too unrealistic


No, it's not. Steam-powered road vehicles actually exist in reality.

> What about rails for engines? i got this idea when i thought about to model a railroad station.


Let me chime in with my experiences from my (discontinued) Wild West train project.
The Wild West train featured a big steam locomotive, which was a lot faster than the traditional steam engine, was able to pull more than one waggon, and needed rails to drive on.
The rails worked similar to the bridge segments, with two differences: 1) They had no solid mask, so they were no obstacle for Clonks and other vehicles, and 2) it was possible to rotate them, so that a train was able to climb slopes.

The pros:

  • Rails allow trains to pass mine entrances and elevators without falling down the shaft. And since they have no solid mask, the shaft remains accessible for Clonks.

  • As the locomotive stops driving when not on rails, trains only drive exactly where you want them to. That a train takes "the wrong turn" and is lost (e.g. by falling off a cliff) doesn't happen. At least not unless your railway happens to have a dead end exacly there.



The cons:

  • On the other hand, building a railway from A to B is tiresome: Even though the rail segments were relatively wide, building a whole way piece by piece takes a lot of time. This is a very repetitive and unchallenging task, and as such, not much fun. (This also applies when the rails are built similar to loam bridges.)

  • You can't simply board your train and explore unknown territory. This makes the locomotive relatively unattractive in the early game, and degrades the trains to supporting you "in the background"* later on. You can't take your shiny new train with you on your exploration trip, or it slows you down severely, in the case that you carry rail segments with you.
    *support in the background would, for example, be bringing you new supplies to your mine and taking minerals you mined with it back to your main base. While automating that task already is a great help, using steam trains for that is really a waste. A simpler pneumatic tubes-style system could handle that, trains have a lot more potential.



In summary, I suggest not making rails mandatory. Instead, perhaps they could be a means of bridging gaps (like elevator shafts) only where necessary. Driving on rails might have a higher priority than driving on ground: When there is a railway slip road ("Schienen-Auffahrt"), a steam engine would start driving on rails, but drive on ground where no railway is available. I also highly recommend not giving the rails solid masks. Being able to pass through them makes them a lot more useful.
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-01-10 00:39

>On the other hand, building a railway from A to B is tiresome: Even though the rail segments were relatively wide, building a whole way piece by piece takes a lot of time. This is a very repetitive and unchallenging task, and as such, not much fun. (This also applies when the rails are built similar to loam bridges.)


And if it would be enough to have one clonk touching the rail at any point to select and continue building on one endpoint?
Parent - - By Nachtschatten Date 2010-01-10 09:18
Hehe, there actually was a similar suggestion to "grow" your railway: Connect a new segment to either end of the rail, and "shift it through", so that the segment gets added to the other end. Including a nice shifting animation, and the ability to set the segment's rotation.

Pro: You wouldn't have to travel to the far end of your tracks just to add a new segment, and you could bridge gaps a lot easier this way. So there's some added comfort. On the other hand, it could unbalance the gameplay, because getting from cliff to cliff is no challenge any more. Apart from that, the "piece by piece" building approach could still get tedious. But as I never implemented this method, it's not tested, and I can't say for certain.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-10 15:12
How about the track is built by the train itself (on which one can either stand and grab or enter). On the end of the railroad, the clonk can open a construction menu inside the train, choosing the next element. The material needed for construction has to be put into the train (or one of it's lorries).
Parent - By Enrique [de] Date 2010-01-12 16:57
I agree to this idea. That you can walk through this rails makes it possible to create a giant underground ("Förderstation") base, where gold at the bottom can be taken over lorries up to the base by lorries and rails without being unable to work in this "mine" (You walk down through flints, but them into lorries, and watch them moving upwards on rails).

I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-09 20:27 Edited 2010-01-10 00:07
I don't see why trains need to be remaked for OC in the first place. While trains with tracks sound like a fun idea, they resulted to be a unhelpful from the beginning. Most reasons were written by Nachtschatten just now. I can think of many other possibilites for stuff that helps with explorating and developing ("erschließen") terrain, making transport of materials easier.
One thing that just came to my mind is a sling-shot with an opening like e.g. the foundry that catapultates the thrown in material automatically to a given location (e.g. another slingshot etc). I am sure we can think of many other possibilities, perhaps based on the new control with the mouse.

Why does it have to be a train?
Or better question:
Why first think of the object and then think of how we make it (come hell or high water) useful?

Edit:
My intention is not to spoil a possibly fruitful discussion. I can think of scenarios where it might be really cool and fun to have to build a train route from one end to the other (as the goal). I basically want to underline that the "Ich will ein Kran!" (I want a crane) perspective of designing a playable object pack is the wrong end to start a design process.
Parent - By Atomclonk [de] Date 2010-01-10 02:14

>"Ich will ein Kran!" [...] the wrong end to start a design process.


"Ich will Schienen!" :C
You perhaps all know the "Bauklotz-pack", where you have blocks you can harden, so they get a solid-mask and this gives the possibility to build castles in your own way or something like that. This pack is still really popular, even it is totaly useless for "efficient" playing. I would like to race down a railroad with my big steam machine... Some smooth physics and effects... oh yeah. Then you can say: "Hey guys, I've made a map with hills and cliffs where we can build some awesome railroad!" - "Oh yeah, I'm in!"
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Parent - - By Railon [se] Date 2011-02-13 16:10 Edited 2011-02-13 16:13
Hmm... maybe slingshots that work like the barrel cannons in Donkey kong, or maybe if you could make wind-tunnels that slowly transport items (nachtshatten have already spoken about pneumatic tubes?)
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2011-02-13 16:31

> barrel cannons in Donkey kong


As in: they float in the air?
Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-02-13 19:10
No. They stand on the ground, you walk towards them and when you come close, they just shoot you anywhere you don't want to be.
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Rails?

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