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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Inventory control revised
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- - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-25 21:14
The currently implemented inventory system turned out to be a bit confusing. You need to click back and forth between slots a lot and it's hard to recognize which item is currently on the left/right hand. I propose the following changes:

  • The item slots accessible by left and right mouse button ("left hand" and "right hand") should not switch position. Instead, items switch between item slots.

  • If you left-click an item slot, that item switches into your left hand. Consequently, left-clicking on your left hand item slot does nothing

  • If you right-click an item slot, that item switches into your right hand. Consequently, right-clicking on your right hand item slot does nothing

  • Pressing a number key (1, 2 or 3) is the same as pressing the left mouse buttonon the respective slot. This means that pressing "1" does nothing

  • There is currently no hotkey to switch an item into your right hand. Maybe Shift+Number? Move Clonk selection to F keys?
Reply
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-25 23:28
How would you switch these items with gamepad control where you obviously neither have hotkeys nor the mouse?
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-25 23:29
I guess you'd have only one "Hand" and shoulder buttons cycle through inventory?
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-25 23:47
Mh, assume that there are enough buttons on the gamepad for both hands (We dont need to disable the gamepad users more than needed ;-)). How could that work then?

Perhaps:
L - switch 1 and 2
R - switch 2 and 3
Problem: Works only with 3 inventory slots.
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Parent - - By Ape [fi] Date 2010-01-26 15:13
Why would we even need more than three slots? Slots 1 and 3 would be the slots for hands (left and right hand) and the middle one would be for a backpack. If we wanted to be able to carry more than three items, we would make the backpack slot stackable. That means that it would hold an arbitrary number of items that you could scroll through.

Two item slot swap buttons (and a backpack scroll button if wanted) would be also enough for the mouse+keyboard control system. You could also swap the items between left and right hand by pressing LRL or RLR. I think the correct keys for the swap buttons (L and R as Newton said) would be 1 (left <-> backpack) and 2 (right <-> backpack). Of course it should be still possible to drag the items visually.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-01-26 15:51

>Why would we even need more than three slots?


Imo we should not restrict possible future expansion packs for OC to only having three slots already
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Parent - By Ape [fi] Date 2010-01-27 06:51
I think we can restrict the expansion packs to two hands and a backpack. That doesn't limit the amount of items you can carry. And of course expansion packs might improve the use of the backpack slot if needed.
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Parent - By Carli [de] Date 2010-01-27 09:39
left click on a backpack item=choose for left slot
right click on a backpack item=choose for right slot
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-01-26 22:02
L - shift, but preserve right hand
R - shift, but preserve left hand

Exactly the same with 3 slots, but working with more.
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-01-27 01:03
Super Pause! Why don't we have that in Clonk?
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Parent - - By Kohlrabi [de] Date 2010-01-27 00:17
Modern gamepads have 4 shoulder buttons, let's label them L1, L2, R1, R2. With that, we find an easy and intuitive way to swap items in up to 5 inventory slots:

L1: swap 1 and 2
L2: swap 2 and 3
R1: swap 3 and 4
R2: swap 4 and 5

For example, with a short combination we can easily swap items in slot 1 and 5, by just pressing L1, L2, R1, R2, R1, L2, L1.
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-01-27 01:00
The 'static hand slots' sounds basic at first, but just seems to complicate and confuse things further. However, you're right about shoulder buttons.

>For example, with a short combination we can easily swap items in slot 1 and 5, by just pressing L1, L2, R1, R2, R1, L2, L1.


To a newbie, this sounds like advanced calculus. Movable hands in the inventory makes a lot more sense, because you're just grabbing different things from your 'backpack'. From my perspective, all 'static hands' item-shift-button-arrangements sound much more confusing than just moving the hands around.

For instance;

L1: Shift left hand right
L2: Shift left hand left
R1: Shift right hand right
R2: Shift right hand left
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Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-01-27 01:20
Although I'm quite certain Kohlrabis posting wasn't much more sincere than my link above, I appreciate shifting hands over shifting items as well. Also works if there is only one button (and thus only one direction to shift) per hand. Of course, really big inventories would take longer to cycle through then, but that isn't any different from as it is in CR.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-27 13:30
Caesars solution is already OK. Any others?
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-01-26 22:04
I'd prefer shift for right hand. Sounds obvious.
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Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-01-27 02:01
I consider the "left hand" and "right hand" slots not actual slots, but just "markers" without any function in the HUD - whereas items are interactive elements, for you can click on them and drag them into menus.
In terms of usability, it is generally considered a good idea to keep the interactive elements in their place (unless the user changes something explicitely, like dragging gold into a sell menu).
I don't think shifting around the whole or even just parts of his inventory, just because he wants to select something, could be the intention of the player.
Of course it's necessary to provide a good visual representation of your hand-"slots". I suggest rather working on a different visual approach than erasing the (IMO important) advantage of not having to worry about item positions.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-27 04:43
And what would that be?
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Parent - By Anonymous [pl] Date 2010-01-27 10:24
I really like this idea, sorry if I'm repeating someone's words, but we could do it so:
Left Hand Slot and Right Hand Slot for items usable by left/right clicking, and a third slot for anything, usually a backpack/bag that can prove few additional slots, so player can have Sword and Shield in his hands, and backack with other items inside, which are not detected by scripts as direct contents of clonk, so like with magic system - player holds a staff in one hand, magic orb in second hand to supply mana AND few crystals in his/hers backpack. This way instead of switching which slot is used by LBM/RBM he just swaps his Left/Right hand slot item with items in his backpack. Items like swords could be stored in backpack slot using sheate, well, something like that would be good imo. :P
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-27 10:54 Edited 2010-01-27 10:56
Problem is, "interactive elements" change already. You collect items, use them, throw them away, etc. With the current system, both items AND hand slots change. This is awkward.

Imo, the hand markers are fine. It's not really a visual problem. Have you played with the current system?
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Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-01-27 14:57
They should only change when you want them to - that's what I meant by "explicit changes". Of course I want an item to show up in my inventory as soon as I pick it up, and it also shouldn't surprise me that my item is gone once I sell it or throw it away. However, I don't expect the item order to change. If I can select an specific item by pressing 3, why would that change, unless I drag that item into another slot?
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-01-27 15:29
Well, it doesn't surprise me if my item order changes because I pulled an item out of my backpack. It does, however, surprise me a lot if suddenly my left hand is on the right item and my right hand is on the left item. It feels like I had crossed my arms somehow. Again, coming from practical game experience, it's just awkward if both hand order and item order change frequently.

I could understand the metaphor of hands on items if items didn't change much. That is, e.g., you have a bow, a shovel and a magic staff and you switch them like you would on a toolbar. However, that is not the actual game experience right now. The actual gameplay is that you have a permanent tool (either the shovel or mb the Jar of Winds) usually put permanently on the right button, plus regular items you collect and use on the left button. The regular items are always a mess, because you have to coordinate item slots and hand positions.
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Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2010-01-28 16:00 Edited 2010-01-28 16:11
That's why I suggested to have the left hand fixed on slot 1 (and switch inventory places around accordingly) while the right hand wanders. It's some kind of compromise between the two schools "objects shouldn't move" and "hands shouldn't move". But I'm also not convinced that this will be any easier to understand.

Let's just limit the Clonk to two slots and be done with it, shall we? ;P

Addendum

Something along that line of thought could be to split the slots into one "tool" and a number of "general" slots. Activating a "tool" currently residing in the "general" slot makes it the new active tool. A tool would be something like a showel, a shield (not the sword, tools = "passive objects") or a mage's wand. We could even make that decide the Clonk type. General slots don't move, but we have a marker showing the active one. Objects stack like in CR (!!).

That could be easier to explain than the whole left hand / right hand confusion. No idea if that was proposed before.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-01-28 16:48

>A tool would be something like a showel, a shield (not the sword, tools = "passive objects") or a mage's wand


But you use a shield liike you use a sword. And you use a wand or a shovel actively as well. I don't think you can say "this is active and that is passive" that easy
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Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2010-01-28 21:09
Yes, I know, that term was badly chosen. The reasoning behind that was that you might want to guard yourself against something (is something like that present in the current concept?) while, say, building a loam bridge. Whereas you would not want to build a loam bridge while attacking someone.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-28 21:14
You can only use one item at a time. Clicking the other use button while using the first item cancels the use of the first item.
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-01-30 04:14

>That could be easier to explain than the whole left hand / right hand confusion. No idea if that was proposed before.


Just played a few parkours with my friend who just played OpenClonk for the first time, and he got the hang of it in about 10 seconds. It's not really difficult to learn; maybe just difficult to explain.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-27 19:02
Your theoretic explanation is convincing and I value your opinion because you are studying in that area. However before you allowed to voice any opinion, you must compile the game and play a bit yourself :-P
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-01-27 13:32
I also want to note that if we change this system, the metaphor of click = (de)select, hotkey X = select X is destroyed. Then, there would be a special control for inventory and it might be confusing that the "hands" are removed from the inventory when the clonk pushes something.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-01-27 13:48
Just for completeness: I like that
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-03-09 18:36
I think this discussion died out with the general agreement of only using two inventory slots. However, as Asmageddon has pointed out this is not the best solution for parkours (or other scenarios where you only have one clonk). I think the current system is good for rounds where you have more than one clonk, because you can have clonks with specialties (miner clonk, sword & shield clonk, etc.). However, for parkours you very often start with two items (shovel and jar of winds or some such) which are both very useful to completing the parkour. If you want loam or dynamite, you have to throw one of you items away.

If we had a proper backpack system (may have already been suggested) it would be possible to set any number of items for a clonk, so we could have 3 items in parkours (and other single clonk scenarios) and 2 items in other scenarios.

The way I would suggested a 'backpack' system to work would be this:
  • Normally a clonk has two slots

  • If the clonk is able to carry three items or more, a third slot is created between the first and second

  • By pressing an inventory button, the middle slot expands up to show all contents (if you can carry more than 3 items) in a vertical row

  • On release of the inventory button, the selected item in the expanded list moves to the first empty slot. If there are no empty slots, you could switch items between backpack-to-hand by pressing left or right use buttons. So if you pressed right, the backpack item would switch into your right hand and your held object would switch into your backpack slot.


    • Currently it seems the inventory system is not compatible with >2 items, so I think we need a solution for >=3 items per clonk.
    Reply
    Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-03-09 18:56
    Suggest implementing backpack as a wearable object =)
    Reply
    Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-03-09 22:17 Edited 2010-03-09 22:36
    There's a backpack at ccan, search for "rucksack" there.
    Reply
    Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-03-09 22:34
    I highly doubt if it is neccesary... we're using a bit different inventory system here, so it would ptobably not be too much of a help.
    Reply
    Parent - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-03-09 22:37
    Ehh, i just thought you guys might want something to start with.
    Reply
    Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-03-09 22:37
    I once suggested to have L and R hand slots, and a third one in which can be a backpack or anything else. Backpack just adds a new slot/two in which are it's contents, that can be switched to L/R hand for usage.
    Reply
    Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Inventory control revised
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