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Well, it is a good question. When in doubt, I'd vote having fewer objects, but look into richer ways of combining them. We could, for example, combine flints and arrows in the bow to make explosive arrows?
Alternatively, the building could have a special "modification" inventory slot that can take a number of different object types (or none), which when present give you variants e.g. on the "arrow" recipe. I don't think it would be too bad that you wouldn't be able to stockpile all different modification materials at the same time.
Alternatively, the building could have a special "modification" inventory slot that can take a number of different object types (or none), which when present give you variants e.g. on the "arrow" recipe. I don't think it would be too bad that you wouldn't be able to stockpile all different modification materials at the same time.
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>When in doubt, I'd vote having fewer objects, but look into richer ways of combining them. We could, for example, combine flints and arrows in the bow to make explosive arrows?
That doesn't sound bad.
Hammer: Combine Items (as opposed to "Construct Building"): Arrow+Flint -> Explosive Arrow
The only problem is probably when you want to automatize that. That probably needs another building ("Inventor's workshop"!) that really CAN store at least a few objects from every type
Hm, did you miss the "in the bow" part? :)
Not that your version is bad or anything, but what I meant would allow spontaneous recombination in the field. Brought flints, but the enemy has dug away the landscape so you can't reach the tower? Find a bow and arrows and deliver your payload by air.
The most problematic part would be how to select the combination material - but that choice problem we'd run into anyway once we have multiple arrow types. In the grand scheme, it might actually reduce interface complexity.
Not that your version is bad or anything, but what I meant would allow spontaneous recombination in the field. Brought flints, but the enemy has dug away the landscape so you can't reach the tower? Find a bow and arrows and deliver your payload by air.
The most problematic part would be how to select the combination material - but that choice problem we'd run into anyway once we have multiple arrow types. In the grand scheme, it might actually reduce interface complexity.
>Hm, did you miss the "in the bow" part? :)
No, I hoped I would get away with ignoring it :)
Even if it would need an additional menu somewhere it would work for the bow - in a way.
The crossbow and everything that uses arrows (defensive towers, traps, whatever) would have to copy that behavior and also provide the possibility to combine items.
It would not work for items that do not "belong" to other items. Let's say you could combine a rope and a spear to get a fishing rod.
Where would you place the "combine" menu for that? In the spear or in the rope?
And if you have to select two items to combine before combining them - what do you need the bow for?
It would of course work without a hammer and only with your hands, too - just place another entry in the context menu to combine stuff you have in your hand (was that what you wanted?).
But even carrying the hammer would not be too much with your 10 inventory slots! :)
> It would not work for items that do not "belong" to other items. Let's say you could combine a rope and a spear to get a fishing rod.
Is making fishing rods from rope and a spear a good idea? I would rather have them be made from rope and wood in a suitable production building.
I don't really have a strong argument why this sort of thing should have an obvious solution for every case you throw at it. But there's still enough room for working around the limitation that I think it is worth the easier interface.
And just for the record: I don't like giving this function to the hammer. The hammer already has enough functions. And why would you need a *hammer* to bind a rope to your spear (to use your slightly strange example)? I would rather prefer allowing the Clonk to do this without tools.
Could probably even share an interface with the "what kind of arrow do you want to fire?" stuff. Combine bow+flint -> bow that fires 10 exploding arrows, then reverts? One idea could be to have attachments to the backpack menu where there's a possible combination ("use this with the bow" / "combine this with the spear").
>in a suitable production building.
That would need a production building that already takes rope and wood - that's what I mean: We could end up having a seperate fishing-rod-production building (little bit exaggerated!) if we limit the materials a building can use
>And just for the record: I don't like giving this function to the hammer. The hammer already has enough functions. And why would you need a *hammer* to bind a rope to your spear (to use your slightly strange example)? I would rather prefer allowing the Clonk to do this without tools.
Nothing against that! I would like that too!
As long as you don't need the bow to build arrows ;)
>One idea could be to have attachments to the backpack menu where there's a possible combination ("use this with the bow" / "combine this with the spear").
That would work pretty well with the you-can-combine-everything-with-your-bare-hands.
Maybe two empty slots in the middle of the backpack where you can drag items into to see whether you can combine them? - trying to find out the combinations is half of the fun anyways ;)
> Maybe two empty slots in the middle of the backpack where you can drag items into to see whether you can combine them? - trying to find out the combinations is half of the fun anyways ;)
Ugh, sorry, no. You really want to do that in the heat of battle when you really need those fire arrows? Open backpack, select moss (or whatever), that's all it should take.
> Maybe two empty slots in the middle of the backpack where you can drag items into to see whether you can combine them? - trying to find out the combinations is half of the fun anyways ;)
Oh yeah: And whether or not that is a good thing is a question of whether or not the item in question is strategically important to have. Fishing rods are probably harmless enough that I wouldn't mind them springing to life from the first bush you encounter - but to build the ultramegaflint, you should probably first have to invest.
Also note that without a building, there wouldn't be a place to buy it :)
>but to build the ultramegaflint, you should probably first have to invest.
The supermegaflint probably has standard ingredients that you can produce it in the chemical lab anyway
>Also note that without a building, there wouldn't be a place to buy it :)
Inventor's Workshop! That would need to be able to store an "unlimited" amount of different materials, though - but at least it would be the only building!
>Open backpack, select moss (or whatever), that's all it should take.
When I open my backpack and select moss I want moss in my hand. :)
You would need another button for that in your system, I guess
>You really want to do that in the heat of battle when you really need those fire arrows?
While the heat of a battle might not the place to construct stuff anyway, I doubt that it would be slower than opening a menu in the bow (the functionality could not be put on "Fire") and selecting explosive arrows there.
Imagine you had a shortcut in the backpack for "move into combination slot" that you can hold down and then click on an item to mark it for crafting: experienced players could produce stuff out of their inventory in a split second
> You would need another button for that in your system, I guess
That's what I meant: Place a "combine" button next to the moss, like an arrow pointing to a bow icon, for example.
> I doubt that it would be slower than opening a menu in the bow (the functionality could not be put on "Fire") and selecting explosive arrows there.
What "it" are we talking about here? The combination menu would be as fast as that - and more general, as it could support more possibilities for "combinations" in case we need them.
> Imagine you had a shortcut in the backpack for "move into combination slot" that you can hold down and then click on an item to mark it for crafting: experienced players could produce stuff out of their inventory in a split second
Huh? I am sorry, but I completely fail to understand why you are such a fan of those slots. Drag&Drop counts as equivalent to two clicks in my book, so you are proposing to replace one click with four. I can't remember one game that I liked this type of interface in (the new Monkey Island games and Aquaria come to mind - hated it in both). Is there some upside here that I don't see?
I was still under the impression that you wanted a menu that you somehow open in the bow interface and that would allow you to select arrows and stuff.The Drag&Drop more or less just stood for: put it in the backpack and make it item independend!
I have nothing against replacing those two slots with a little sign "Mark for Combination" next to each backpack slot (and if you mark two or more items that you can combine, they will be combined).
At least that's how I understand what you want now - did I get you right?
As I understood it now it would be something similar to this:
?
Roughly, yes. Each slot should have buttons like "split" and/or "combine with"/"use with" for each object type in the backpack it can be combined with.
The advantage of a "use with" relation would be that we could put it just at one side (say, flints - "use with bow") so the target doesn't get too many icons.
The advantage of a "use with" relation would be that we could put it just at one side (say, flints - "use with bow") so the target doesn't get too many icons.
I thought you would just "mark" the items you want to combine :oOne click on the button next to the flint ("marked for combination") and one click on the button next to the arrowpack ("mark for combination").
That would be such a straight-forward interface!
The only disadvantage here would be that you could not have items that are combined out of three ingredients where two ingredients form another item themself. But I think we could survive that.
Nothing against a "Split" button though!
You could just take some standard materials and craft whatever you need on your way (disassembling your old items)!
No, I specifically meant a one-click interface. Note that if the bow was in your hands, you'd have to put it in the backpack, mark for combination, mark the flint for combination, and take it in the hand again. That's too complicated.
On top of that, having icons for possible "use with" relations wouldn't force the player to guess which combinations work.
On top of that, having icons for possible "use with" relations wouldn't force the player to guess which combinations work.
The combination symbols could also be next to the hand-slots while the backpack is open.As I got you now you would check for possible combinations when your backpack is open and only place symbols for these combinations next to the objects? (So the Flint would have a "Combine with Arrow to Explosive Arrow" and the arrow would have a "Combine with Flint to Explosive Arrow")?
That would also work and would be a little bit faster. It takes a bit from the "try everything and see what you can combine" - but it trades that for an easier interface. Nothing against that.
I still do not get what role the bow plays in the combination of Flint and Arrow, though :S
You want the combination button next to the bow? That would only work for the bow&arrow example. It would not work for any other item or even if you want to use Explosive Arrows with a crossbow (vehicle)
> The combination symbols could also be next to the hand-slots while the backpack is open.
Meaning half-way across the screen? :)
> So the Flint would have a "Combine with Arrow to Explosive Arrow" and the arrow would have a "Combine with Flint to Explosive Arrow"
Exactly, that's what I meant. Sorry that I forgot about the picture, that would probably have communicated it more quickly.
> I still do not get what role the bow plays in the combination of Flint and Arrow, though :S
Hm, the interplay between those objects is a bit complicated. But combining with arrows could work, too.
Here's a thought experiment: Let's say we start with a bow, 20 arrows, and a flint. One flint should be enough to make 10 exploding arrows here. We need a way to associate arrows with a bow, so I suppose you'd combine the bow with the arrows (probably even automatic once you try to shoot?). Now when you try to make exploding arrows, you'd have to combine them while in the bow. The best behavior would probably be to put 10 explosion arrows into the bow, and exit 10 normal arrows into the backpack, or drop them completely. Once you've shot the 10 exploding arrows, it would continue with the normal arrows from the backpack.
Modifying the bow instead to shoot 10 exploding arrows would solve the "drop normal arrows" issue, but wouldn't allow you to revert back to normal arrows if you want to do it (can't split of a half-used flint). Actually I think I like the arrow solution better.
"Per Anhalter durch die Galaxis" anyone? (I am speaking of the old Clonk scenario)
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