![[fr]](/mwf/flags/fr.png "France")
(As we are going to a full settlement release from what I've heard, I want to pass my ideas to make Clonk a bit more "younger" in the settlement category)First, we are gonna review the construction in Clonk Rage :
- A clonk uses a construction kit to land a building sign
- This sign is affected by gravity, that means if you dig most of the dirt under it, the whole construction will fall down like it was some wood plank tipping over
- You need to put the ressources directly by "grabbing" the building
- After X % of the ressources have been put in, the Clonk will enter a building phase
- This building phase is the building "appearing" from nothing and building up to the top
This system is not broken at all, but I feel it getting a bit old, and now that we are using a better engine, I thought about a new building system :
- A clonk uses a construction kit (yet again), we can make it a bit nicer, like slighty opened with some visible blueprints protuding out of it
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/cgp24.jpg/
- Again, you will need ressources to build, but instead of them being magically thrown in the building, they are landed in the building "inventory", and appear in front of the building site. That means you can put all the ressources yourself and then build after. I'll get back to this "building inventory" story later
- Once enough ressources are stocked up, some are consumed to create a "building phase", there can be as much building phases in a building than the creator wants
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/buildingphase16.jpg/
For what is of the transition, we can just assume it appears out of nowhere (I'm hammering air for 10 seconds and a wood frame appears !)
The first is used after getting Wood from a sawmill, you will need to take it to a Carpentry. Once there, simply ask your Clonk to cut Wood into Wood Planks (note that the Carpentry will allow you to cut absolutely everything made from Wood, so you will need it more than just for one recipe). For one block of Wood, you will have 1 Wood Planks (there's alot of losses)
To get your Stone cut into Stone Bricks, you will need to get in your Workshop, there you will be able to cut Stone into Stone Bricks, you will need 3 Stone to make one Stone Brick (however the Stone Brick object looks like a stack of 3 bricks made out of Stone). Note that if you don't have enough Stone to finish the Stone Brick you are working on, the production will stop and the remaining Stone will be put in the Building Inventory
Talking about this, all the production and all the stuff the building is given is put and stays in the Building Inventory, it has 10 slots, and each slot can stockpile up to 10 units of any block, for example a Foundry can hold 30 units of Coal, 30 units of Ore and still have enough space for 40 more Ore, however it can't hold 11 different materials
For what is of the Physics, a building should never have any. The building has foundations, and all the damage done to them is dealt to the building itself. That means that the foundations will never break as long as the building is still holding up. Once the building is totally destroyed, the foundations are destroyed after some more damage
That was my idea on building something, and how to make it nicer
![[ie]](/mwf/flags/ie.png "Ireland")
Heya and thanks for sharing your ideas :)Since these are mere ideas, please consider posting them in "Feedback and Ideas" next time!
Okay, let's start with a little feedback at your feedback. A few things you've written are outdated in respect of the current development.
> A clonk uses a construction kit (yet again), we can make it a bit nicer, like slighty opened with some visible blueprints protuding out of it
Having an extra 'dummy' object just to start a construction side is no longer the way we want to go. And it is a weird thing to actually consume tools on your building. There's already a hammer in the repository. This is the tool to start your construction with. Otherwise when designing a building you always have to calculate the costs/material for a conkit too when it comes to balancing. If you think buildings are too easy to construct, let them need more material instead of inserting such an object.
> Again, you will need ressources to build, but instead of them being magically thrown in the building, they are landed in the building "inventory", and appear in front of the building site.
This is a nice idea but sadly nothing to discuss now. We don't have any sophisticated menu handling yet but we have a well thought-out concept here. As you can see, construction sides are already mentioned there.
> Once enough ressources are stocked up, some are consumed to create a "building phase", there can be as much building phases in a building than the creator wants
Agreed on the phases. But bear in mind that this topic is about modeling and designing and makes it harder to actually model a building. However, I think modelers will agree and try do something like this.
> Once there, simply ask your Clonk to cut Wood into Wood Planks
> To get your Stone cut into Stone Bricks, you will need to get in your Workshop, there you will be able to cut Stone into Stone Bricks
I don't really like the idea of having intermediate steps between gathering the resources (chopping trees in the saw mill, mining stones). You certainly add a step that is realistic but first of all you have to look if it's more fun to do this. This is a step of carrying your useless stuff (wood, rock) from point A to point B to get the useful stuff (planks, bricks). Since you definitely will have a tools workshop to cut stones it's just a time consuming task. And a task you have to do a lot because planks and bricks will be the basic materials.
The carpentry will be a single purpose building, just for producing planks and again an annoying step. Also you make having it mandatory for the player in order to construct his settlement. The player will always have to construct it. When giving the player starting material you have a provide him with exactly the amount of planks and bricks he'll need to construct a workshop and a carpentry. Since this step will always be the same you can place the buildings for the player and spare him the time.
> (note that the Carpentry will allow you to cut absolutely everything made from Wood, so you will need it more than just for one recipe)
Granted, planks may be used for barrels and lorries (I hardly can think of other existing objects made from planks). But wood serves this purpose as well.
> For one block of Wood, you will have 1 Wood Planks (there's alot of losses)
> you will need 3 Stone to make one Stone Brick
If all this is just to make constructing more costly, you can leave out the refining and just increase the amount of wood / stones needed for a single building. That's a matter of balancing.
> That means that the foundations will never break as long as the building is still holding up.
Somewhat agreed. Depens on the actual design of the buildings.
Ok, I was already not sure about this story of adding one new step like Wood-Planks and Stone-Stone Bricks, guess I'll trash itI think the Carpentry is a building make to "extend" the number of buildings that one can put in his settlement. You can use it for Furniture, you can need it for Decoration, that kind of stuff. If we trash the idea of Planks, we can use Wood for that anyway
For the menu things, I'm gonna add my idea on this topic
![[ua]](/mwf/flags/ua.png "Ukraine")
> The carpentry will be a single purpose building, just for producing planks and again an annoying step. Also you make having it mandatory for the player in order to construct his settlement. The player will always have to construct it. When giving the player starting material you have a provide him with exactly the amount of planks and bricks he'll need to construct a workshop and a carpentry. Since this step will always be the same you can place the buildings for the player and spare him the time.
That fact made me think about one rather sad issue.
In CR one could build his whole settlement having only 1 hut and soime gold at the start (Most of the starting building materials couyld be bought right away). Now in OC as the trading system is not yet implemented, player will always have to have some starting amount of material to build his... sawmill to start wood production. And if he accidentialy spares that amount on some other building, his entire settlement will be screwed up. And if scenario designer decides not to give this starting amount...
That leads us to the situation where player will always have either some amount of wood or the sawmill at the beginning of EACH settlement scenario.
Maybe we can think of the way to acquire some wood EVEN in the situation when player starts with 0 amount and no sawmill at his disposal. (Maybe some wood planks lying around or plants which can be chopped to get building material right away).
I think that is a valid issueMaybe starting any settlement scenario with a prebuilt Sawmill and Wood House
![[gb]](/mwf/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Well, to be fair, even with gold you can get into situations where you don't have enough gold anymore to buy the stuff you need for the sawmill. You are only truly able to bootstrap yourself out of everything once you have access to gold. Which is one of the reasons why I want raw gold nuggets to be sell-able!
Apart from that, in my proposal the solution is easy: You just buy the buildings directly. Note my proposed menu showing a price for buildings: That's how much it should cost to create the building just from gold. That's roughly equivalent to what we had in CR - minus having to buy the intermediate raw materials. That means your "bootstrap kit" is a flag, a hammer, and access to enough money/gold to get going.
Apart from that, in my proposal the solution is easy: You just buy the buildings directly. Note my proposed menu showing a price for buildings: That's how much it should cost to create the building just from gold. That's roughly equivalent to what we had in CR - minus having to buy the intermediate raw materials. That means your "bootstrap kit" is a flag, a hammer, and access to enough money/gold to get going.
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
One could be able to produce wood with the axe only. For fine-cut timber maybe needed by later buildings, one does need the sawmill. How about that?
![[at]](/mwf/flags/at.png "Austria")
I'd just make using an axe uber slow, you need an axe to chop a tree anyway. Then you can either use it to cut the tree into wood pieces, which will feel like forever, or you can use a sawmill to make quick work of it.
![[ca]](/mwf/flags/ca.png "Canada")
>I'd just make using an axe uber slow,
I don't think making it tedious is a good balancing idea. Tedium is not fun. Rather it should be a lossy process (only gets 1 wood per tree instead of the normal 3, for example).
Edit: Though presumably it could also be slightly slower, but relying entirely on player boredom to create the need for a sawmill is a bad idea
Like the idea about less effective + somewhat slower. Definitely the lack of the sawmill won't be so catastrophical
Well, that doesn't strictly solve the problem. You'd start the player with a flag, a hammer and an axe instead of a flag, a hammer and a sawmill.
>You'd start the player with a flag, a hammer and an axe...
By the way, are you assuming all clonks start with a shovel by default? Otherwise, he can't dig out gold chunks. And how does the clonk sell gold chunks?
>Well, that doesn't strictly solve the problem.
I'd think starting the player with a set of tools instead of prebuilt buildings is a lot more 'clean' for scenario design.
I kind of assumed that you'd have a shovel, yes. Selling is done at the flag.
And well, how would you define "clean"? I don't really see the elegance in spawning the Clonk with the backpack already filled with all sorts of tools.
And well, how would you define "clean"? I don't really see the elegance in spawning the Clonk with the backpack already filled with all sorts of tools.
As Peter said, the gold you start with spent on the wrong stuff and your settlement is as well screwed up. We can't get rid of giving the player something at the beginning.If we want to say "take this and you can do everything" is has to be everything he will need to produce wood, rock and to build. If the axe becomes a slow wood producing tool (by slashing at chopped trees), the startup set for the player would be the following: a hammer, a shovel, a pickaxe and an axe. In that case we don't need a stationary constructing right from the beginning.
>We can't get rid of giving the player something at the beginning.
Pre-determined conkits. Instead of needing a conkit to construct a building, we turn them into a whole pre-determined building - inclusively ressources. You give the player a sawmill-conkit at the start, and he can build his sawmill without having to worry about the starting-ressources! >:D
Fair point. Hm, random idea: Could we make unpowered buildings still work, but just 10 times slower or something? Then a stand-alone sawmill wouldn't be so utterly useless. You could make it chew on some trees while you are working on setting up proper energy supply.
Use Clonk-power. (It is like hamster power with the exception of...)
> a hammer, a shovel, a pickaxe and an axe
Hm, you're right in that you'd hate not to have access to those in some way. But I still would like to keep the possibility of deciding to not go with, say, a shovel. How about we make tools purchasable at the flag? Then we could reduce all that down to just a flag.
Yes, buying and selling is a good way to bail out of the restrictions. The flag could just have a special settlement starting options whereby it sells you these 4 tools once for free. You just have to give the player a flag then.
Why for free? I was aiming to make a proper early-game decision out of it: Buy a hammer, then a sawmill? Or an axe to get going for cheaper? That might depend on how many trees you see around or how likely you are to stay in place.
Well, yes if that works out. I just fear that we're ending up with everyone giving the player enough money to buy these four tools anyway :)
I see that starting requirements discussion got popular. But what do you think of the general idea of adding "build phases" ?
Well, that particular feature has been proposed a number of times already over the history of Clonk. From my point of view, its main problem has always been that nobody wanted to make the graphics for build phases.
Guess making graphics are a bit annoying, but honestly people should follow if this was the way to make buildingsI think making building phases takes a lot of time compared to just giving one gif and let it build, but it's worth it
Since this a project based on voluntariness there isn't really a way to force such things on people. Creating the 3D model is a tough task in itself.
What about gradual transition from wireframe model to fully rendered model?At least can work as a placeholder for some time...
Hm, I don't know if this is such a good idea.My proposition would be: Have some scaffolding outlining the building site. Then the building is drawn from bottom to top (Just as in CR). When the building is completed scaffolding collapses in a puff of smoke.
Clonk Mars had building animations. But I don't think they were worth the effort.
Obsection!
There was a GWE package of Zeratul if someone knows it, it had really really well done animation in GWE Style.
http://www.ccan.de/cgi-bin/ccan/ccan-view.pl?a=view&i=2324 - the best I've seen so far, it was this detailed that I just watched the buildings grow all the time.
http://www.ccan.de/cgi-bin/ccan/ccan-view.pl?a=view&i=2324 - the best I've seen so far, it was this detailed that I just watched the buildings grow all the time.
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