![[nl]](/mwf/flags/nl.png "Netherlands")
I don't know if this idea is even possible engine-wise, but I'll talk about it anyway.
Right now the implementation of water in Clonk is as follows. Each and every droplet of water is a pixel. While this may seem very realistic, it lacks realistic physics. And thus the watery pixels just become sort of like... quicksand...
Have you ever dig a tunnel down, then up, then let the water come in, only to realize it doesn't go up at the bottom of the tunnel? That's not what happens in reallife. We should implement something like pressure. Is this even possible?
Also, when it rains, nearly everything gets under water. And it will never disappear. The engine should take into consideration that water can dry up and go back in the air and form clouds. Cloud forming shouldn't be necessary, but to keep the game fun and playable the water that falls down from rain should just aswell disappear again as time goes by. I never liked the fact that when I dug a tunnel in my base, and it rained just the minute before, the whole tunnel gets underwater and it's impossible to keep on digging unless you're going to use barrels to fix the mess. I would say that adds nothing to a nice gaming experience.
So what do you guys think?
Right now the implementation of water in Clonk is as follows. Each and every droplet of water is a pixel. While this may seem very realistic, it lacks realistic physics. And thus the watery pixels just become sort of like... quicksand...
Have you ever dig a tunnel down, then up, then let the water come in, only to realize it doesn't go up at the bottom of the tunnel? That's not what happens in reallife. We should implement something like pressure. Is this even possible?
Also, when it rains, nearly everything gets under water. And it will never disappear. The engine should take into consideration that water can dry up and go back in the air and form clouds. Cloud forming shouldn't be necessary, but to keep the game fun and playable the water that falls down from rain should just aswell disappear again as time goes by. I never liked the fact that when I dug a tunnel in my base, and it rained just the minute before, the whole tunnel gets underwater and it's impossible to keep on digging unless you're going to use barrels to fix the mess. I would say that adds nothing to a nice gaming experience.
So what do you guys think?
![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
> We should implement something like pressure. Is this even possible?
This has been discussed a few times before already. I think there have been some approaches, but nothing sustainable. I am aware that Peter has some (non-published?) code for this, but I don't how far this is or whether it will get into OC eventually.
> I would say that adds nothing to a nice gaming experience.
I would say that constructing your tunnels so that rain does not mess everything up is a nice challenge of the game. But it might actually become harder when handling pressure correctly.
>I would say that constructing your tunnels so that rain does not mess everything up is a nice challenge of the game. But it might actually become harder when handling pressure correctly.
So let's say you constructed your base inbetween two not-so-steep hills. The hills are not an obstacle for your clonks. But there is some difference in height. Now let's say it starts to rain. And let's say your exploring the area with a clonk, or maybe attacking another base. Your attention is not at your base. You return, only to see that your whole base is underwater. It has essentially become a lake. I've seen it happen countless times. All I'm trying to say is that rain has such a HUGE influence on gameplay that it isn't rain anymore, it's more like someone from above is pouring millions of gallons of water on the ground and it will never absorb back into the air, no matter how warm it is. The only thing you can hope for at that moment is that the water will turn into ice so you can "dig it away".
Who builds his base in a valley anyway, in a melee round? :P
I'd say it's your job to make sure your base is protected appropriately against rain, if you know that there is rain in the scenario. Whether there is is a decision of the scenario designer. You are right that the amount of rain in Clonk is not realistic; but it makes the game more fun to play (to me, for certain rounds, at least), and this is what a game should be about. I'm just worried that rain might have much fewer impact on gameplay with your idea, and it becomes a visual effect only. This can certainly be nice for some rounds (esp. ones where you would disable rain completely with the current system). So maybe it should be up to the scenario designer to choose. But then again, newcomers might be confused because rain persists in some scenarios but not in others...
I'd say it's your job to make sure your base is protected appropriately against rain, if you know that there is rain in the scenario. Whether there is is a decision of the scenario designer. You are right that the amount of rain in Clonk is not realistic; but it makes the game more fun to play (to me, for certain rounds, at least), and this is what a game should be about. I'm just worried that rain might have much fewer impact on gameplay with your idea, and it becomes a visual effect only. This can certainly be nice for some rounds (esp. ones where you would disable rain completely with the current system). So maybe it should be up to the scenario designer to choose. But then again, newcomers might be confused because rain persists in some scenarios but not in others...
![[ca]](/mwf/flags/ca.png "Canada")
Possibly there could be two seperate environment rules; Decorative Rain(dries up after a short time), and Persistant Rain(can rise water levels). Also, it would be very interesting if rain persisted based on volume (ie If it pools- it persists, if there are just individual drops on the ground or very small pools it dries up). Water behaves like this in PHUN, persisting based on volume.
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
> We should implement something like pressure. Is this even possible?
Possible, yes, but complicated in detail. As CK mentioned I have "a" solution in the works that I will finish eventually. Hopefully somewhere this year, if I find the time.
Concerning ways water disappearing: You really shouldn't look into real world mechanics, because water is even more annoying there. Once you are underground, you won't have any evaporation anymore - instead you have seepage. And then you quickly have aquifiers. Many real-world tunnels have to pump water all the time just to keep the underground water out.
That said, I'm actually somewhat a fan of adding seepage. I always objected to a few pixels of loam holding back kilometers of water pressure... But it would make life a lot harder for miners, that's for sure.
(And concerning evaporation - I think we already have something like that with the rule that holds sea levels constant.)
By Anonymous ![[lt]](/mwf/flags/lt.png "Lithuania")
Date 2009-08-01 16:37
Hello everyone,
the water system which is used in clonk rage is not realistic for sure. But using that system a player can create something like this what is realy cool and useful.
So we have to choose a spot between the realism and features not available on realistic water. I mean this underground water entrance would only be available if clonk would simulate not only water pressure but air pressure as well. And then things get very complicated, slow and TOO realistic. (:
the water system which is used in clonk rage is not realistic for sure. But using that system a player can create something like this what is realy cool and useful.
So we have to choose a spot between the realism and features not available on realistic water. I mean this underground water entrance would only be available if clonk would simulate not only water pressure but air pressure as well. And then things get very complicated, slow and TOO realistic. (:
I agree that ofcourse that "gameplay" should come before "realism" in Clonk but some extra refinements to the engine would make the world more alive.
Your picture is a perfect example of Clonk's water physics. xD I've always found the water physics in Clonk made it interesting to play with water, such as making u-bends and the like. Water pressure would be an interesting addition to the water physics; adding an extra challenge to creating bases under a lake or some-such. But, it remains to be seen whether someone decides to add it or not.
Yeah the thing is that you got to have a way of control over the elements, I like that. Too much realism is a problem for games at all, it 's the question if you really want it or better stay at good gameplay; I'd rather stay with the contemporary way.
Well, once we have water pressure, adding air pressure won't be that hard. And it might allow for new cool tricks like pushing water out of your mine by pumping air into it....
![[fi]](/mwf/flags/fi.png "Finland")
That would be really great. But is it too difficult to implement?
Well, if we have polygone landscape, it shouldn't bee that hard anymore, right?
It would be harder i think. How schould the water fit perfectly into the landscape?
When we want to do this, we have to use particle water and it is a very expensive effect.
When we want to do this, we have to use particle water and it is a very expensive effect.
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