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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Further thoughts on inventory and controls
- - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-07-19 17:02

Further thoughts on inventory and controls



boni and I had a discussion about the inventory and interaction controls with the conclusion that the interface is currently still not intuitive and simple enough.
The main idea was to get rid of the two-hand-system (old thread from Matthias) and have the right-click for interaction with the landscape to increase analogy to the inventory interface.

The idea is now as follows:
You have one inventory object selected at all times - and you can use it like your are currently doing with [Left-Mouse-Button].
You can switch between your current and last used item via a hotkey (for example Q), which should make up for the sword-and-shield situation. (like the quickswitch CounterStrike and other ego-shooters have)
This also allows the inventory to be moved to the bottom of the screen, for better mapping with 1-9.

What to do with the right mouse button?
The right mouse button would replace the current interaction control (Space + Number).
Clicking would open a wheel-menu (similar to the old contents menu, more more into this direction) containing all actions that the Clonk can execute at the time (context sensitive like the actionbar: picking berries, grabbing a lorry, untowing from the rope tower, …).
Space would still be a quick-access key for interacting with lorry/chest etc - possibly not for more sophisticated actions like plucking berries, though.
Notice that the location where you click does not make any difference to what the menu contains (except from possibly a “show info for this object” entry). The middle of the menu opens at the mouse position though. This means you only have to click and drag the mouse a bit into a direction.

What to do with the hand animations we have?
Since there is the notion of a “last used object”, that object can be shown in the other hand and carried there leisurely.
When you use the “switch to last object” key, the idle hand would become active.
That would also make the shield-and-sword-situation more appealing visually (like it currently is).

This means we’d also implement an animation-layer for the hands into the animation system. As it is now, every weapon has to differentiate the hand it’s in and call the corresponding animation, which is really bothersome. In the future the weapon would just tell the animation-system to play the “SwordSlash” animation, and the animation-system would play the left or right hand animation for it, depending on the active hand.
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-19 17:12
TL;DR:
One hand-slot with quick-switch. Actionbar into wheel-selector-menu-thingie on rightclick. Inventory to the bottom, similar to oldschool Clonk. Space for quick-interaction stays.
Parent - - By Koronis [de] Date 2012-07-19 18:10
Glad you mention it :) . I think having the right-mouse button for interaction with the landscape is not really a good aim. It will probably lead to sth. similar to "hey I accidently hit my back mouse button when I wanted to click something in my browser". Namely, I wanted to hit sth. with my sword but got on the right-mouse button instead and it opens an interaction menu.
However, I think having one active slot instead of two is the way to go. To not lose the two-handedness I would propose a system where you could combine two objects to a double wielding object e.g.
have a sword (single wield = right mouse button)
have a shield (single wield = right mouse button)
combine it to sword and shield and define whats right and leftclick.
In combat that would mean you can make a sword and shield item by drag and drop and it will stay that way and can be accessed by pressing the item number.

For the space/interaction part: I think we should just make it space and let the circles appear next to the cursor as you proposed.
Are we planning for a ressource transfer tab and a production tab for buildings? if not  we could also let the e key be for ressource trading and space for general interaction(like grabbing, producing,...).

Just my thoughts.
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Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2012-07-19 18:24

>Namely, I wanted to hit sth. with my sword but got on the right-mouse button instead and it opens an interaction menu.


Yeah, thats not really worse than "I wanted to hit sth. with my sword but got on the right-mouse button instead and it threw my tera flint". Seriously: We just can't bend our interface design in weird ways just because there's the possibility of someone accidently hitting the wrong key. It's an error on the sensorimotor layer, its not our fault.

Actually, not having the same actions (both item use) on the mouse buttons will rather reduce the chance of doing it wrong: I can't mess up by getting the wrong item, because there is only one.
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Parent - - By Koronis [de] Date 2012-07-19 19:04
well I can certainly live with only one mouse button. I'm just wondering why we need two keys for the same action. If the keyboard is necessary anyway why make both ways possible? You wouldn't lay jump on space and on the right mouse button in a shooter, would you?
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-07-19 19:15

>I'm just wondering why we need two keys for the same action.


Because hitting "Space" does not have the same effect as hitting RMB (right mouse button).
[RMB] will open the context menu where you can select what you want.
[Space] instantly selects the first action that you would have in the menu. That would usually be grabbing the lorry you stand in front of or interacting with your building.
It is not a different key for the same action, but it is a shortcut key for an action that would otherwise require more time.

When you are comparing with shooters:
Think of the "Re-Buy Previous" in CS: yes, you could select your inventory manually again - this button just makes it faster.

[Also in any shooters I know I can assign at least two keys for any action ;)  ]
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-07-20 20:41
That'd make the right mouse button very~ unimportant. Most of the time, there will be only one thing to do at one location. (So space is enough). I think I wouldn't like that to have such a secondary (in terms of importance/frequency of use) button the the mouse.
Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-20 23:33
I'd use it more than the hammer on my right mouse button. The thing is, you effectively only use one slot, except in special combat situations.
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-07-21 08:57
Well, that pretty much sums it up: Two items on two mouse buttons are better for combat. Two actions for the same item on one mouse button are more useful for complicated or strategic things used in settlement.

Why not have both? I.e., you may set your hands on two different objects or the same objects. If they're on the same, you have quick access to an alternate option.
Parent - By Maikel Date 2012-07-21 08:58
Brilliant :)
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-07-21 10:11
-1
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-21 11:01 Edited 2012-07-21 14:05
Except everything I posted down below still stays the same.

Besides that, it seems like a useful solution. But hard to communicate to the player. Does this thing has 2 actions or one? What does which one do? etc.

Edit:
Personally, I don't think it's possible to create one control scheme that works for all occasions. I think it might be best to have a seperate control scheme for, for example, the Hazard clonk, that uses left and right mouse button to shoot stuff, or left for shooting and right click for grenades. It'd be only used by hazard-arena-scenarios or the Hazardclonk though. While this creates a bit of a knowledge hurdle ("oh, the controls work differently now?!") it limits this case to very specific scenarios. ("Oh, it's a hazard shooter, gotta use shooter controls").
What we need now is a good general purpose control scheme, that works for settlement and normal/minor melees (possibly during settlement scenarios).
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-07-21 12:54
The context menu would in most situations be currently less important than the left mouse button or the space bar, sure.

But I believe that it still would be something that could improve the user interaction and feeling of the controls a lot.

Not to say, that I would put certain actions in the context menu that are currently either impossible or hardly accessible:
That could for example be:
- Chopping a tree with the axe. This is an action that the Clonk executes, I don't get why you have to hold the button for that. (the strike would go to click)
- Taking your ammunition from a bow or switching ammo.
- Taking single sticks of dynamite out of a dynamite box (currently impossible, but was requested)

When we have more objects, use of the context menu will become a lot more frequent. And it would be nice to have a solution in place that scales well.
Another advantage of the context menu is that it can contain actions that are not obvious to players - for example taking dynamite from a dynamite box or change ammo of the bow.
The context menu would contain an iconic graphic and when you hover over it at least the name of the action. It would be the first place for new players to look if they think "How do I do that now?" - which would greatly increase accessibility.

Why I dislike two actions for one item on both mouse buttons:
1. the actions are most likely not clear for the player: when does an object have two ways to use it and when are they active? (hatchet: with tree in background)
2. developers might feel forced to implement two actions for items - see the sword example. I am deeply in doubt whether parry or another type of attack would be good for gameplay (and that is after having tried many iterations with how the sword works).
3. having two actions will either be the standard case (and players wonder why object X does not do anything on RMB) or the exception (in which case players do not even try RMB) - or it will leave players completely unsure about when an object has two actions.
4. in any case it will mean additional info in the HUD, which will also stay there when the player is more experienced and would not need that extra info.
5. at some point we will have items that might need three functions - or more (for example: a bow in front of a torch could have the additional option "incinerate arrows"). I like the idea of having a scaling solution from the beginning

Why I am against having the context menu on another button on the keyboard:
This is merely a "feeling" argument:
The workflow of using the context menu would be more cumbersome: It is a huge difference whether I click the RMB, move it into a direction and let go or whether I click Q, let Q go, move my mouse, click RMB, let RMB go. - Especially since it involves both hands.
Another argument would be that the mouse would be the tool for interaction: When the player wants to move around or manage his inventory he would use the keyboard while whenever he wants to interact with something, he would know that the mouse is what he is looking for.
As I said: that's just an argument about the general "feeling" of interaction, but I believe it's not an unimportant one, but one that could add a lot to the feeling you have when you play.

That the context menu on mouse click comes with a "info about this object"-entry which is dependend on mouse position (and which imo is needed in Clonk) goes without saying I guess.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-07-21 14:20

> It is a huge difference whether I click the RMB, move it into a direction and let go or whether I click Q, let Q go, move my mouse, click RMB, let RMB go. - Especially since it involves both hands.


I don't quite get why you'd want RMB to select stuff in the menu. Why isn't it "hit Q", "select with LMB"? Or even quicker: Hold Q, select by mouse movement / LMB. This kind of menu isn't unknown to the gaming world but even more it's often used in shooters where quick access counts: 1, 2

/e
Btw, my feeling would be that such a menu does not belong on a mouse button ;(
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Parent - - By Koronis [de] Date 2012-07-19 19:21
ah okay thanks I didn't get that. I like that. I would reverse it however. click for the context menu and space for the instant grabbing. Seems more intuitive? Not sure might just need testing.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-07-19 19:23

>click for the context menu and space for the instant grabbing


That's what I meant :)
Space instantly executes an action and RMB opens the menu
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-19 20:43

>click for the context menu and space for the instant grabbing. Seems more intuitive? Not sure might just need testing.


Actually space already does that now too.
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-19 20:57
I think this needs a bit more clarifying.
The main-motivation for the change from 2-hand to 1-hand-with-quickswitch is that it simply feels awkward as it is now. Managing 2 slots, where you have to switch often, is kinda weird. And most of the time you set item X on one slot and switch around the other a lot. The only advantage 2 hands has is in very few cases, like sword+shield. The quickswitch allows to use shield and sword, or other combinations, too. With the downside of 1 more button pressed.

The interaction-stuff to the right-mouse change has a few reasons:
1. We can put the inventory at the bottom. Mapping is important in UI-Design. Have you ever seen a game where 1-9 weren't aligned horizontally?
2. You don't have to figure out the right number and press a space+key combination anymore. Instead you just hold right mouse, move it into the direction of the picture you want, release. (or click a 2nd time) A nice side-effect is that this translates very well to gamepads too.
3. In a perfect world, you'd only need Space to interact. Most interactions like grabbing can be done by simply pressing space. The clonk should perform the most "obvious" action then. This not only introduces more clarity to what happens (space = first item in bar vs. "space does stuff I want"). In general you'll mostly use space, and use the right-click when you want to do something less common. (This includes having a lorry grabbed and trying to use a workshop)
(4. I can imagine that it's easier for people to think of space as "does stuff" and right click as "I interact with that stuff there")
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-07-21 12:01
Forget to reply yesterday, will do it now.

Matthi always stressed on how important the connection between mouse button and mouse position is. Opening of a menu is something completely irrelevant to the mouse position and there is no real need to not use a less important button - like Q.
If you really want to get rid of two items (which I support) then why not have two possible click actions for every object? The sword gets a parry feature on rightclick which - correctly timed - blocks an attack. If you carry a shield in another slot (or in your hotswitch slot), rightclick will use the shield to block.

There are more useful rightclick action which are very easy to come up with:
Axe: chopping on left, attacking on right
Bucket: The bucket has basically two behaviours: collect earth and drop earth. They cycle every click which is very bad because you can never be sure which state the bucket is on.
TeleGlove: Let rightclick push the lifted object away.
Bow/Musket: Rightclick changes ammunition type.
Shield: Rightclick could do a shield dash to topple over other clonks.
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Parent - By boni [at] Date 2012-07-21 13:42

> Opening of a menu is something completely irrelevant to the mouse position and there is no real need to not use a less important button - like Q.


The menu opens at the mouse position! *cough*
No, but really, it's all about the flow/feeling.

>Bucket: The bucket has basically two behaviours: collect earth and drop earth. They cycle every click which is very bad because you can never be sure which state the bucket is on.


Then the bucket needs a full-graphic. ;)
The examples you listed are mostly ones that alternate anyway. Having that on one button or two doesn't really matter, because in most cases one of the two wont do anything at all! I fully understand why alternating sucks, when you're never sure WHAT action will be performed. But this is better solved by giving the player easily readable information. (Hey, the bucket is overflowing it earth. It's probably full!)
Parent - By Koronis [de] Date 2012-07-21 12:11
Well to be fair the point was to create a user interface right where the mouse is. So that you would not need to move your mouse to a predefined location to select which item to interact with.
However I personally would prefer to have either different keys for that or just open the menu whenever there are two options to select. I do like the idea of having alternative actions for a sword etc. on the right mouse button. While I hate to parry hits with a sword I would enjoy having a fast and a slow attack for quick or damaging strikes for example. (parrying always makes me crazy but I don't really mind having it)
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-07-21 14:54
To quickly sum up what I discussed with boni just now:

Opening a menu on a mouse button (in a game) feels a bit awkward to me. Whereas opening it on a keyboard button is fine. Personally, I'd prefer having the menu on Q (or rather: hold Q and move the mouse on the icon you want to have, release Q to execute). It's not that important that my keyboard hand moves a finger. Leaving the movement buttons is fine because I don't need movement when I want to interact with stuff.
The problem with RMB is that this button is always mentally connected with the mouse position. We could easily have any button on the keyboard refer to the mouse position but the urge to do so is far stronger with the mouse buttons. By 'just' opening a menu on this button we rob ourselves of the great possibility to do something position related with this button.

It doesn't necessarily need to be another item based event. What about an object info? I rightclick on my buildings in the landscape to get the current energy and damage status. We always struggled to come up with a good solution on how to inform the player about stuff in a subtle way and always ended up with uncontrollable and spameous GUI flashings.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-07-21 15:24

>It doesn't necessarily need to be another item based event. What about an object info? I rightclick on my buildings in the landscape to get the current energy and damage status. We always struggled to come up with a good solution on how to inform the player about stuff in a subtle way and always ended up with uncontrollable and spameous GUI flashings.


This sounds better. Because, while I can live with having the context menu on a key (those were just "feeling" arguments), I would still be against having a second function etc. on right-mouse (see comment above).

Also, this would strip the need off of me to come up with a decent energy HUD ;)
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-07-21 15:56

> Also, this would strip the need off of me to come up with a decent energy HUD ;)


Yep. As long as it's player triggered, we can easily spam various information around, like energy, damage, production queue etc.
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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Further thoughts on inventory and controls

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