Not logged inOpenClonk Forum
Up Topic Development / Art Workshop / Stuff to do..
- - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-23 11:27
Hi there,

I'd like to do some Clonk related artwork again. I would want it to be something that is actually needed, so I figured I just ask.
So, any need for concepts or graphics of any kind? I'd be happy to help.
I can do concept sketches, illustrations and vector drawings. You can search the forums for some stuff I did some time ago. I can model too, but I'd prefer to team up with someone.


Parent - - By Nachtfalter [de] Date 2013-08-24 17:16
Welcome back! :)
I'm also a bit interested in building some models from cool sketches.
Parent - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-27 02:08
Yay, that would be cool!
Parent - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-25 23:57 Edited 2013-08-26 19:19
What i would find important: artworks/ideas and/or models for

A modular castle conceptidea (I am sure you can find some Ideas and concepts already here in the forum, but no artwork ideas are there yet. The main idea is to be able to cover the buildings with some sort of sourounding wall/roofs. In clonk rage it looked like that:
There already were ideas to add an outsideview, but maybe you have a nice idea how to make that not looking to bunker-like/box-like, but more castle like. I thougt about adding randomly lots of different castle-typical elements as you can find loads of in here:

a nicer blacksmith... maybe?
a nicer alchemistry-"lab"?
a battery building
animals (should be very agile, ability to fly, teleport, or whatever, to make sure they wont stuck to easily in the weird landscapes)
Parent - - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-26 17:49
And I am wondering, why there is no easy findable list what graphics are needed most. The heared about a lack of guys who can create graphics quite often, but to get an answer for "which graphics do you need" seems to be hard, I don't understand this.
I really really strongly recommend to improve the communication between the scripting guys and the graphic creators. Because of the reason I was somehow really frustrated of this, I decided to work only on what I am personally most interested in and for what I imagine it could be nice to have. Of course I allways have to hope that someone's there who implements the stuff in the game. In generall I don't think it is a good "method".
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-08-26 20:09

> And I am wondering, why there is no easy findable list what graphics are needed most.

Because that depends on two things: The current state of development (and what's the next release goal) and someone having insight into the repository and what is done right now. Currently, there's a development low, so chances are, there's no one having this information ready. For me, it'll be at least until November till I can rejoin development. But the low activity in the forum/chat/repository speaks for itself. Dunno about the time you got frustated though.
But at least since February there's a sticky in here and yep, most of the stuff is still not done.

Anyway, with no development ongoing, there's also no need for new objects, really. We need new ideas first and then someone willing to manage development. It's always nice when someone picks up the ideas already lying around (you mentioned them in your other posting: castle parts, animals, plants) but right now there's no guarantee this will be the stuff that gets picked first when something's about to be done. But the ideas are ready for sketching all the same, yes.

There's also the stuff you mentioned that could benefit from a new model, the armory and the chemical lab. I would add the loom (as mentioned in the sticky) but I think that's it. I'd remove the battery / compensator from the list. We already have some cool designs imho. Including you, three people worked on that. Sadly enough, none of them ever supplied the model just screenshots. So nothing to implement there :( the scripting done for that part. It happens kinda often that some nice screenshots are shown but a model gets never posted. Afterwards people are fooled into thinking this model's done when it isn't.

Speaking of the lack of graphic guys: Maybe it's just bad timing, people missing each other. Often we set certain release deadlines and then try to code our way in to catch the date (because afterwards all the coders, like right now, are otherwise occupied). Often then, graphics are needed quickly and no one's there to do them. The last release attempt more or less failed because some vital parts of the planned stuff (finishing up production lines e.g.) wasn't ready (like the loom, cotton).
In the end, what would be really cool was someone who really knows his way around with texturing. Someone who'd redo all the textures and unify them and give them that sparkly extra look it's still missing. If someone like that is around, he never showed it...
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2013-08-26 20:35
I still think we could make a release with the current dev state. Sure some stuff is unfinished, but compared to the last release there were some huge improvements.

Not sure if this helps spark interest, but at least it will bring everyone to the same state.
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2013-08-27 11:07
I don't know, we would need to do some playtesting before though.

Also I'd rather have the new controls working and have them tested on a large scale after.

I agree with you that a lot of content is missed out by the release players, but I think most people are playing the snapshots anyway, as I learned yesterday while playing.
Parent - By Mortimer [de] Date 2013-08-27 12:29
Count me in. The last few days, I noticed that OC in its current state is actually fun to play ;D
Parent - - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-27 16:10

>Because that depends on two things

I see, Of cours I also know, that the time of the most involved developers is very limited right know. It was very cool that they(and you) postet these circumstances somewhere in this forum. So that was really transparent. And I did not really expect great improvements now.
But anyway I am still missing some easier insights, espacially for small expansions, like a single new object or whatever. It sometimes works fine in private(like the Water animals and decoration stuff, created by Matthi and Zapper) but I think there are more guys around who would enjoy to create such small things, instead of beeing part of the big game-developer team. But this is just a thought, and I do not have a great solution to solve this problem.

>It happens kinda often that some nice screenshots are shown but a model gets never posted. Afterwards people are fooled into thinking this model's done when it isn't

It is true. for me, it is just the thing, that I tried these crazy Repository-tools and programs, but I simply do not get along with them :-( . Maybe I am not the only one the reason could be the benefit for graphic creators by having access on the repos is quite low, normally there are no multiple guys working on the same model like I imagine it happens with scripts and stuff(?).
So for example I simply sent the animalmodel, I created to Sven2 directly via mail. And right know, Sven is not here for some weeks.

Maybe a better alternative would be to attach the model files directly to the specific forum post. So if somebody disappears mysteriosly there is still a version for further developement.

>I'd remove the battery / compensator

Then I would specify this: there was the idea to replace the battery acid tank-whatever thing with some sort of more likely solid battery structure. I tried out some stuff, but was not really satisfied I am still working on it. But maybe Fungiform has a nice idea for this thing too.

>Speaking of the lack of graphic guys: Maybe it's just bad timing, people missing each other.

Maybe this is it. you mentioned the loom/cotton. I heared about some ideas, but could not find a thread like "we need really really need a model for a loom" or whatever. Maybe you should keep in mind, that I am not allways reading all threads as carefully as it would be helpfull. So in such cases some more clear request threads would help :-)? Of course it is not really fair, that I am expecting or demanding that you guys write a request thread just because I am to lazy/to stupid to find my way here.

And anyway, somehowe the cooperation still seemed to work. Just look on what already was achieved here, which is really great. Just let's improve this
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-27 16:45
I think many of the graphics get buried in discussions.
Speaking of tools: wouldn't it be possible to have an editable wiki page for each object? Changes could be uploaded there, discussion can take place in the background and all in all keeping track and organization would be easier...

we could have lists of requests, ideas, references, concepts and all the objects in their various states.
Parent - - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-27 17:42 Edited 2013-08-27 17:47
editable lists in the Wiki would be very nice.

But actually, I think it does not matter, what sort of thing we use, this forum, the wiki, whatever...

I guess, to work together on one model, this repositorystuff is designed for exactly such tasks. But still I do not like these crazy programs althought there are loads of tutorials and whatever.
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-27 19:14
I think it actually could matter. in the forum everything is stretched out and results are not together but mixed with discussion.
Parent - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-27 20:34
Parent - - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-28 14:07
There is a technical problem though. The wiki was once editable for all (that registered) but we had a massive spam problem, even with captcha and all so I had to turn registration off. Now I have to register everyone who wants to edit the wiki manually.
Parent - - By ala [nl] Date 2013-08-28 17:20
Cool flags, are you on a world trip :)?
Parent - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-29 13:36
No, just SEA :-). In one month, there will be a new flag - Red Blue ° White.
Parent - - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-28 22:09
Oh too bad :(
So Repository is the right one for this job, even though I do not like to use it.
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-28 23:44
For my liking I'd rather prefer a less technical and more graphical tool.
Most of the time it would be most helpful to have all graphics that have been done to a topic in one place. Like a page where you can see the concepts first and then pictures of a model and alternatives of it.
Also, it would be nice to be able to connect random reference pictures to an topic. e.g. I did research for the loom but I don't want to disturb a running thread and its not important enough to make a new one, so a place to put the links would be cool.

Thats why I had the idea of the wiki even though a friend pointed out that wikis can also have a strange syntax and stuff.. still I like the idea to have everything graphics related to one object in one place: status, work done, to do stuff, references, further ideas, color schemes and the like + a link to the repository
Parent - - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-29 13:45
Well, keeping the resources in a git resource repository is not something that cannot be changed. Other artists (namely: Matthi) also complained about this situation. It is just the current organisation.

The wiki, however is IMO not the right place for storing the data. Perhaps for keeping the "status, work done, todo stuff" but not the data: (Like Git,) Wikis are not built for that kind of stuff. It is really uncomfortable to manage the data there.

Matthi once suggested Dropbox or something similar (and forum for todo,status,work done etc.). Since we are an open source project, perhaps there is "something similar" available for us at no cost. Or perhaps an SVN? It might be worth the effort to research what other (open source) project use to manage their resources.
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-29 14:12
For sure I think we should store the actual models we create in the repository. I'm more concerned about pictures of the model and concepts for an overview.

Hm, yesterday I asked a friend who is actually working in a game company. They had a wiki before but now they are using google docs for everything. Wiki is better for onganisation but docs has the advantage of a WYSIWYG editor..

so, I think raw data storage should be on repository and we have some documentation/collection, so you can basically see the status of everything and start working without bothering with the rep. only when something is finished you need to put it there or find someone who can.
Parent - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-29 14:40
On the wikipedia they just introduced a WYSIWYG editor ("beta"). They use MediaWiki. We use MediaWiki as well. Perhaps this is included in the newest release or something. However, I can only update the wiki in 2 months or so since I am currently travelling.
Parent - By Nachtfalter [de] Date 2013-08-27 17:04

>So in such cases some more clear request threads would help :-)?

Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-08-27 22:41

> Maybe a better alternative would be to attach the model files directly to the specific forum post.

That's definitely more desirable than not having the model somewhere ;) Actually, I do often keep those (forum) posted models in mind and search for them in case I'm about to implement stuff.

> So in such cases some more clear request threads would help

Right you are. I'll try to respect that in the future.
Parent - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-28 22:12

>That's definitely more desirable than not having the model somewhere ;)


>I'll try to respect that in the future.


Nice done.
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-26 22:09
actually at the moment I am tinkering about methods to improve the tools and methods here in the graphics section. Its not that refined that I would post it here yet but I'm very interested in giving the Art team a boost and bring more stuff into the game.
I actually felt the same frustration and confusion coming to the OC art development. I think we have all the talent and work power here if we manage to organize our workflow a bit better.

Actually I don't think it is a good Idea to develop the graphics one by one. In this case style, proportions and color will vary on each object and be mostly influenced by personal taste of a single artist.
We should try to define steps for the art development and push the core objects together through each of these steps. Though that might imply that for some time we wont have a steady flow of new graphics.
I understand that it is important that we have new stuff to show in each release, but now that we already have some game content its maybe a good idea to spent some time to organize graphics creation an think of a better way for the artists to work together. I would be happy to spent time on that.
Parent - - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-27 02:41
That is a marvellous idea. There hasn't been any development of art department organization since the early days of development.

There is only that wiki page (and the linked pages from there) on it and that's it. The reason might well be that we had a very active artist, Ringwaul, who basically defined most of the style because most of the stuff is from him. Now, he is absent for almost two years(?).

What is definitely missing is some "color palette" that includes the different wood, metal, brass, thatch, screws and nails, ... etc textures that should be used on all the models. Apart from making the buildings fit better together, it would also improve the texturing progress.

The proportions part I personally don't weight so important because openclonk buildings do not have entrances, thus no storeys.

Given that you develop the concept on your own, I want you to bear in mind that many of the current structures have been made by the same person and the others have been made to fit to them by discussion in the forum. Thus, most of the artwork already follows a common style. Not based on clearly defined development steps but still common informal understandings what fits into our style and what not.

Or shortly: I fear that a new development concept will topple over lots of work that has already been done and in the end, we have only generated a new construction site where nobody is working on.

So what I would like to see is a development concept that generates as less as possible new work for stuff that has already been done. I'm not talking about resizing models, this is done quickly. I am talking about re-texturing but especially about remodelling. I don't know if this was your intention at all, but I want to mention it just in case.

Anyway, would you like write access to the Wiki?
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2013-08-27 11:30

> color palette

After looking at all the buildings/objects ingame, I'm not sure about our colors anymore. Have a look yourself:

(Yes, it's already set against a dark background, but not an unusual one. Also, night skies would look similar as well.)

Looking at this picture, I think that the colors of wood and metal are incredibly dull. Things that use brighter or more saturated colors immediately stick out like a sore thumb (Tree! Berry-Bushes!)
The wood-browns just mix into the shingle-browns, clay-browns or rope-browns; But whats even worse, it often blends perfectly into the landscape. The only really nice wood color is the one of the pickaxe there, which has a nice red tint to it.
Same for metal - I just sampled a few colors from that image; every metal surface is almost 100% gray, little to no variations in R, G or B.

Another thing that sticks out is the detail density in the textures. Some textures are so realistic that its features just clutter on those small objects (Elevator wooden beams, armory roof). Others are some indistinct, dull blur (airship workshop). I'd actually propose hand-drawn textures once again, but I wouldn't know the right person for the job... :)


I think putting the "wrong" buildings next to each other really looks odd. Just take a look at the kitchen (far left) and the armory next to it. Or compare it to the catapult. Some proportions really seem off there.

So, I'm not sure if we can reach a really nice and consistent look without redoing some stuff. I think the ideal approach would be to draw and color(!) every building before creating new graphics or making changes to textures and models. Not sure if it is possible though.
Parent - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-27 14:44 Edited 2013-08-27 15:13
I think something like this is very useful.
There should be alway an easily accessible picture like this with all the objects side by side.
We could also provide jpeg's in which a finished object can be placed to see if brightness values are ok (small picture of landscape with sky and dirt in back)

Even better would be to have all graphics as png's with transparency. Then you could prototype visuals in Gimp/Photoshop by manually arranging everything without bothering with the problem to get your stuff into the game for testing...
Parent - - By Fungiform Date 2013-08-27 14:32 Edited 2013-08-27 15:12
First of all I don't want to topple over any of the work that has been done.
I just think many things are much faster and fun if there is a plan.
When its clear what Objects are needed, its easy to make concept drawings for everything in one run.
If there are approved concepts, its easy to model after them.
If we have a set of textures, its not a big deal to apply them.

I think what is more of a problem is that we don't want to rely on ONE artist and his style. We want a good way to do graphics now and everyone else later should be able to make graphics for their stuff as easily.
How can we do that? Give some hints on proportion, materials, style elements etc.
I don't see what sense it makes to have a door look different in every building. Clonks most likely have their way in building doors, the graphics could show that and it gets easy for us because we design it once and use it then or make variations of it. That is one real advantage of 3d models. In old clonk days you always had to cut and paste graphics parts from the sawmill or something... 
Same for Textures. Why should wood look different in every place we have. For now clonks chop down those fir trees. So the wood they use is probably fir. Yes we want it to have a kludgy look but that doesn't mean its random...

So the idea would be:
1. to have references for general style elements
2. think of defining elements for each building we want (sawmill -> saw blade, woodlogs ; smith -> anvil, coal pile, hammer )
3. combine these to concepts

over time we can fine tune the symbolics for the buildings and even make different economic branches easier to identify. e.g. all energy buildings share a specific element (maybe the generator in a nice clockpunk style)
All in all it will be easy to derive building version with the stuff in a hut or in a machine-like frame or integrated into castle parts...

I also don't see what we have to loose. We have the stuff we have and whatever we do can just help to get people excited to join. We should expose as many tasks as possible so people get inspired and start doing stuff...
Parent - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-27 16:34
I like the idea of using "samples"
Besides the idea of the door, I am thinking of a general texured model for wooden beams. They are used a lot as columns for the buildings roofs or whatever.
Some kind of database with all such standard elements would be great.
Parent - - By pluto [de] Date 2013-08-27 16:25
Great Idea. I allways searched the artists guide page for any comments about color/textures/whatever. This really is missing. So a color pallete( already mentioned by Newton) could be a big help.

>Actually I don't think it is a good Idea to develop the graphics one by one. In this case style, proportions and color will vary on each object and be mostly influenced by personal taste of a single artist.

Maybe you are right with that, but still, i really like to be able to create the way I want. Getting some feedback in the forum works nearly allways very good. Looking at the picture some posts below, I am surprised that the buildings still fit somehow together. Of course it is not really good, but I thought it is worse, than it actually is.
Parent - By Newton [vn] Date 2013-08-28 14:16
Template textures and model parts could/would go into the resources repository like everything else so that they can easily be modified with version control etc. Of course, the files can be linked in the wiki, that's no problem.
Up Topic Development / Art Workshop / Stuff to do..

Powered by mwForum 2.29.7 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill