This thread I started for discussions on balancing with heavy resources, please share your opinion, I'll try to update this first post to what we have agreed so far, for now it's just part of my personal taste.
Basic Resources
First I will list what are the basic resources in the game and how to get them.
* Log (comes from cutting the tree)
* Planks (from using the sawmill on trees or logs)
* Rock (directly from mining)
* Metal (produced from Ore and Coal in the foundry)
* Firestone (directly from mining)
We can already learn from this that metal and planks are hard to produce and take some more steps, so we should not require to much of those for a basic structure or item. Rocks are pretty much abundant in all scenarios and are easy to come by, same holds for logs, if the scenario is designed correctly. However carrying too much of these around is also quite a pain, so we want to prevent that for the basic buildings as well since the player won't have good transportation routes or methods right from the start of constructing a settlement.
Advanced Resources
* Seeds (from cutting grain, hard to obtain)
* Cloth (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
* Rope (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
Balancing
I will divide all the ingame objects in six categories, basic items, advanced items, basic vehicles, advanced vehicle, basic structures, advanced structures. All of these basic categories are needed to build up your settlement and should be in my opinion easy to construct. The advanced stuff can be much harder since those objects also give a higher reward.
Notes:
* We don't have a production method for Cloth yet, so for now 1x Cloth can be replaced with 2x Planks.
* Same holds for Rope: 1x Rope can be replaced by 2x Planks.
Basic Items
* Shovel: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Axe: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Hammer: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Pickaxe: 1x Planks, 1x Metal (this is a more advanced item and needs planks, does this make sense to the player?)
* Loam: 1x Water, 1x Earth (this needs to be improved, remove bucket somehow)
* Barrel: 2x Planks (basic liquid transportation, but also more advanced, thus planks)
* TODO: explosives, foodstuff
Basic Vehicles
* Lorry: 1x Log, 1x Metal
Basic Structures
* Flagpole: 1x Log, 1x Metal (Alternatively also 2x Log)
* Foundry: 1x Log, 2x Rock (is underground usually, so logs might be harder to find)
* Sawmill: 1x Log, 1x Rock (is above ground usually, so rock might be harder to find)
* WindGenerator: 2x Log, 1x Metal
* SteamEngine: 4x Rock, 2x Metal (is powerful so might be a bit more expensive)
* Elevator: 2x Log, 1x Metal
* ToolsWorkshop: 2x Log, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* ChemicalLab: 2x Log, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* Chest: 1x Log (basic storage, could also be some other building, but should be cheap)
Advanced Items
* MetalBarrel: 2x Metal
* Ropeladder: 1x Rope + 1x Planks
* Wallkit: 2x Metal
* Sickle: 1x Planks, 1x Metal
* TODO: weapons, explosives, foodstuff
Advanced Vehicles
* Catapult: 3x Log, 1x Metal
* Cannon: 1x Planks, 3x Metal
* Airship: 2x Planks, 2x Metal, 1x Cloth (1x Cloth can be replaced by Planks while it is still unaiva
* Airplane: 4x Planks, 4x Metal
Advanced Structures
* Pump: 1x Metal, 2x Rock (the pipes also need one metal each, so keep metal costs low)
* Compensator: 1x Metal, 1x Coal
* Windmill: 2x Planks, 2x Rock
* Kitchen: 2x Planks, 2x Rock
* Loom: 2x Planks, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* Armory: 2x Planks, 1x Metal, 3x Rock
* InventorsLab: 2x Planks, 3x Metal, 2x Rock
* Shipyard: 2x Planks, 2x Metal, 2x Rock
This is just a short summary of what I think is good, I will update it later for all ingame items/resources, let me know what in your opinion is missing or should be differently.
Basic Resources
First I will list what are the basic resources in the game and how to get them.
* Log (comes from cutting the tree)
* Planks (from using the sawmill on trees or logs)
* Rock (directly from mining)
* Metal (produced from Ore and Coal in the foundry)
* Firestone (directly from mining)
We can already learn from this that metal and planks are hard to produce and take some more steps, so we should not require to much of those for a basic structure or item. Rocks are pretty much abundant in all scenarios and are easy to come by, same holds for logs, if the scenario is designed correctly. However carrying too much of these around is also quite a pain, so we want to prevent that for the basic buildings as well since the player won't have good transportation routes or methods right from the start of constructing a settlement.
Advanced Resources
* Seeds (from cutting grain, hard to obtain)
* Cloth (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
* Rope (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
Balancing
I will divide all the ingame objects in six categories, basic items, advanced items, basic vehicles, advanced vehicle, basic structures, advanced structures. All of these basic categories are needed to build up your settlement and should be in my opinion easy to construct. The advanced stuff can be much harder since those objects also give a higher reward.
Notes:
* We don't have a production method for Cloth yet, so for now 1x Cloth can be replaced with 2x Planks.
* Same holds for Rope: 1x Rope can be replaced by 2x Planks.
Basic Items
* Shovel: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Axe: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Hammer: 1x Log, 1x Metal
* Pickaxe: 1x Planks, 1x Metal (this is a more advanced item and needs planks, does this make sense to the player?)
* Loam: 1x Water, 1x Earth (this needs to be improved, remove bucket somehow)
* Barrel: 2x Planks (basic liquid transportation, but also more advanced, thus planks)
* TODO: explosives, foodstuff
Basic Vehicles
* Lorry: 1x Log, 1x Metal
Basic Structures
* Flagpole: 1x Log, 1x Metal (Alternatively also 2x Log)
* Foundry: 1x Log, 2x Rock (is underground usually, so logs might be harder to find)
* Sawmill: 1x Log, 1x Rock (is above ground usually, so rock might be harder to find)
* WindGenerator: 2x Log, 1x Metal
* SteamEngine: 4x Rock, 2x Metal (is powerful so might be a bit more expensive)
* Elevator: 2x Log, 1x Metal
* ToolsWorkshop: 2x Log, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* ChemicalLab: 2x Log, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* Chest: 1x Log (basic storage, could also be some other building, but should be cheap)
Advanced Items
* MetalBarrel: 2x Metal
* Ropeladder: 1x Rope + 1x Planks
* Wallkit: 2x Metal
* Sickle: 1x Planks, 1x Metal
* TODO: weapons, explosives, foodstuff
Advanced Vehicles
* Catapult: 3x Log, 1x Metal
* Cannon: 1x Planks, 3x Metal
* Airship: 2x Planks, 2x Metal, 1x Cloth (1x Cloth can be replaced by Planks while it is still unaiva
* Airplane: 4x Planks, 4x Metal
Advanced Structures
* Pump: 1x Metal, 2x Rock (the pipes also need one metal each, so keep metal costs low)
* Compensator: 1x Metal, 1x Coal
* Windmill: 2x Planks, 2x Rock
* Kitchen: 2x Planks, 2x Rock
* Loom: 2x Planks, 1x Metal, 1x Rock
* Armory: 2x Planks, 1x Metal, 3x Rock
* InventorsLab: 2x Planks, 3x Metal, 2x Rock
* Shipyard: 2x Planks, 2x Metal, 2x Rock
This is just a short summary of what I think is good, I will update it later for all ingame items/resources, let me know what in your opinion is missing or should be differently.
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
>* Loam: 1x Water, 1x Earth (this needs to be improved, remove bucket somehow)
I think loam is actually advanced, because you don't need it for a basic settlement - it's only a convenience tool like the pickaxe!
I have no problem with loam needing a bucket.
Currently we always spawn the player with shovel+hatchet+hammer. Is that necessary? Could we find a clever setup of required materials that starting a settlement only requires, say, a hammer?
It is not the problem that it needs the bucket, in my opinion the bucket is just very annoying to use, you always are unsure whether you have enough earth pixels... Not like the barrel which takes up to 300 Pixels and you only need 60 of those, so you don't always have to hope you got enough of them.
Well, how would you manage without a shovel? I don't really have a problem with spawning these three items.
Well, how would you manage without a shovel? I don't really have a problem with spawning these three items.
The bucket is made to be non-exploitable (not possible to create earth with it). Thus it's a bit annoying to fill it with such a small amount.We could redesign it. What about having the bucket in the inventory while digging fills it automatically? We could store much more pixels in there.
>We could redesign it. What about having the bucket in the inventory while digging fills it automatically? We could store much more pixels in there.
Yes! but why not use the barrel for that?
> Could we find a clever setup of required materials that starting a settlement only requires, say, a hammer? .
Wouldn't that lead to the player always building the same starting buildings to produce the missing tools? And if you screw up (build the wrong building), you have to start the scenario all over.
> I think loam is actually advanced
Loam is very advanced, as having lots of loam also allows you to reach almost every location reliably.
For example, in Gem Grabbers, there's lots of interesting options to travel between islands: Catapult, Rockets, Balloon, Airship, Plane, Grapple Bow, Flintjumps, (potentially: Scaffolds, Bridge Segments),...however, all these methods are trumped in simplicity and versatility by just building tons of loam.
At the moment, this is "balanced" by making loam very annoying to produce. If it's made easier, we'd need additional changes to Gem Grabbers (and Skylands).
I agree that loam is versatile and allows you to do a lot and set up a good infrastructure, but that is what we need as well for a faster build up of your settlement. The thing we want to overcome is repeating stuff in my opinion, and loam is the perfect tool to smooth ways for lorries, especially since we don't have earth anymore, we could also think about reintroducing earth chunks. And producing loam is the most annoying activity in OC at the moment in my opinion, it should rather be simple and consume more materials than be complicated but cheap.
I'd then rather make loam scarce by it's water consumption (barrels could absorb 400 pixels, loam requires 100 pixels) and reduce the amount of water in a skylands scenario.
I'd then rather make loam scarce by it's water consumption (barrels could absorb 400 pixels, loam requires 100 pixels) and reduce the amount of water in a skylands scenario.
![[at]](/mwf/flags/at.png "Austria")
>* Cloth (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
>* Rope (made in the loom, this is hard to obtain)
>* We don't have a production method for Cloth yet, so for now 1x Cloth can be replaced with 2x Planks.
>* Same holds for Rope: 1x Rope can be replaced by 2x Planks.
Suggestion: Plant Fibres from Vines, like it's in Starbound
I'd like that, though at the moment we don't have vines yet.
Also I don't recall what was the original idea, hunting wipfs or cotton plants? Anyways it's not bad to have multiple production mechanisms for rope, so that one can always produce it in any environment (jungle->vines, arctic->seals, regular->wipfs,cotton).
Also I don't recall what was the original idea, hunting wipfs or cotton plants? Anyways it's not bad to have multiple production mechanisms for rope, so that one can always produce it in any environment (jungle->vines, arctic->seals, regular->wipfs,cotton).
>Chest: 2x Log (basic storage, could also be some other building, but should be cheap)
Should be 1x Log imo.
Agreed, since an enemy can easily open it, so the storage is not even safe. Also the amount of items is limited to 25, which seems reasonable.
>since an enemy can easily open it, so the storage is not even safe.
To change that would be a one-liner, though. What's the intention?
I'd say an enemy shouldn't be able to open it.
Do flags prevent enemies from accessing a chemical plant's contents?
This is planned and in my opinion extremely necessary if you want to have the slightest chance of making "settlement melees" or "base melees" work.As I said here in more detail: the fun part about a melee is not trying to ruin the enemies' settlement in the most sneaky ways, but it's the player-versus-player-combat, which we should endorse.
![[gb]](/mwf/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
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