Even though the current controls are a big improvement we can think about some more fine-tuning. As Zapper already mentioned in his spotlight video the only thing which is worse compared to the old controls is quickly switching between items, e.g. from sword to shield. I currently see three important use cases for quick switching:
* from sword to shield
* from throwing or shooting to windbag (increase the speed of a projectile)
* from throwing to tele glove (throw an item and move it to where you want)
Currently the quick switch always switches to the previously selected item which you can then use. I am a fan of the throw + windbag combo and instead of quick switch I always press the number key of the windbag instead of Q (quick switch). This is sufficient for throwing, but to slow for the bow or javelins typically.
Therefore I propose Q to do the following: with Q + # key you can select your quick switch slot quickly (set it to the shield on a respawn for example). Then pressing Q switches to the selected slot and uses that item directly. So after the switch Q acts as the left mouse button effectively. This way I imagine you can switch and use much more quickly and reliably.
Opinions? Disadvantages? Anything unclear?
* from sword to shield
* from throwing or shooting to windbag (increase the speed of a projectile)
* from throwing to tele glove (throw an item and move it to where you want)
Currently the quick switch always switches to the previously selected item which you can then use. I am a fan of the throw + windbag combo and instead of quick switch I always press the number key of the windbag instead of Q (quick switch). This is sufficient for throwing, but to slow for the bow or javelins typically.
Therefore I propose Q to do the following: with Q + # key you can select your quick switch slot quickly (set it to the shield on a respawn for example). Then pressing Q switches to the selected slot and uses that item directly. So after the switch Q acts as the left mouse button effectively. This way I imagine you can switch and use much more quickly and reliably.
Opinions? Disadvantages? Anything unclear?
![[at]](/mwf/flags/at.png "Austria")
Would really like to have that. Currently its quite annoying that you still have to press the left mouse button to activate the shield after quickswitching to it.
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
Sounds like a good idea that's definitely worth a try.Would it then always act as leftclick (CON_Use) or, say for rocks and flints, default to CON_Throw (rightclick) if the object cannot be used?
PS: Hmmm, one thing is still a bit unclear.You select an item by [Hold Q], [Press #], [Release Q].
You use an item by [Hold Q] <using> [Release Q].
How do these two cases differ? How do the controls know that I don't want to reassign Q but USE the item?
Another proposal:
To put an item on Q, you do the sequence [Hold #], [Hit Q], [Release #].
That would imply that you do the normal item selection with [Hold #][Release #] (currently it's on key-down).
PPS: and should Q only remember the slot or also the ID?To rephrase it:
Say you put Q on <use shield>. Then you lose your shield. You die. Respawn and select another shield (in another slot).
Would Q then still use the shield or would it not do anything (in case the slot is empty) or would it use the new item in the slot?
I'd say it should probably remember the item type rather than then slot number. No?
For now we can try with the slot number, since that is easier to implement I suppose.
The item type is also hard to consistently communicate to the player.
The item type is also hard to consistently communicate to the player.
>The item type is also hard to consistently communicate to the player.
It would somehow need to be communicated to the player anyway. I guess the standard version would just show a little 'Q' somewhere in the item slot. The 'advanced' version would not do much more: the Q would just move around depending on what item is in which slot.
![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
It sounds like exactly what we had with the two-handed system, except now you use Q instead of the right mouse button.
Yes, but is that negative? Currently Q represents one of the number keys between 1 to 5, and does not have a big use. This new assignment would at least make the combo's work and lead to more advanced gameplay in principle.
That's why I suggested that the button should remember an object ID instead.Then one really annoying part about the two-hand-system would fall away: having to consistently rearrange your hands (e.g. when you pick up stuff, scroll through your inventory (i.e. accidentally select the right-mouse item with the left-mouse), respawn, etc.)
What would happen if I have a shield before respawn and a windbag after the respawn, then would the Q slot be nil?
Yes, Q would not be bound to a slot - instead, e.g., next to the inventory a little "Q: Use Shield" would be shown. That also means that if you lose your shield, Q will do nothing.Which also means that you will NOT have to reassign Q to the shield once you get a new one. In most rounds [citation needed], you'll want it bound to one thing anyway (i.e. shield, club, shovel) even if you put away your shovel for a second or died and did not yet aquire a new shield.
I'd prefer that. I'm no fan of us deciding what would be the best Q choice for a player after respawn.
Well, the Q-slot would not jump around, because Q would not be set to a slot. Q would explicitely be set to Use Shield.On the other hand, it would jump around if you had collected a shield and Q-ed it (say, in the last slot) and then respawned with a shield in the first slot and Q would no longer point to your shield. THEN it would jump around just as much.
Instead of the ID, it could also be slot one and Q+Slot number switches items with slot one. We could also offer extra hotkeys (but default unassigned) to do the same quick-use on other slots. Then Marky would effectively have his suggestion implemented (except the key would be "Q" instead of "Alt+1")
Throw-launching an item with the club is another thing that has become more annoying.Generally, I feel encumbered by the strict separation between [Throw] and [Use]. When I try to use a projectile in succession with a usable weapon, I often find myself throwing my sword away and trying to use the flint.
For good old flints and rocks and other items without a tool use, throwing them with [Use] would feel very natural.
But I'm not sure whether to apply the system to all items without a use option (including wood etc), or limit it to the more typical weapons. The latter could cause confusion about what's considered a weapon...
Either way, I do see a potential problem with that approach: there'd always be an inconsistency between different throwing weapons, because some of them have another [Use] (igniting iron bombs etc), so "Use a throwing weapon to launch it" still wouldn't be a universal pattern.
That said, it feels weird that javelins distinguish between "attack throw" (use) and "throw throw".
![[ch]](/mwf/flags/ch.png "Switzerland")
I agree, it is definitly not intuitive. I also quite often throw my item away: such as: metal bridges, javelins, windbags. However I think, it comes with some time. But i have to say, in CR such mistakes never happend to me (i never threw away a construction kit or bread, instead of using it
> i never threw away a construction kit or bread, instead of using it
I'm curious. Why didn't you press the throw button in CR but do so in OC? Just to understand why pressing this button in OC is more tempting. It serves no other purpose than throwing things away so why the mental connection with 'using' things?
Pressing double-dig feels very different to me than pressing throw, compared to left-click and right-click. Not sure if it's just double-press vs single-press. My Clonk Rage learning phase has been so long ago that I can't remember how often I mixed up the Throw and Dig buttons. But I suspect the one-handed nature of CR helps because it gives you a very clear sense of left and right.
I also would say double dig is clearly something different than just one throw. And at least double dig instead of throw would have done nothing with quite some items such as the spear for example. And by the way I usually even used items via the context menu(which would be context-throw (as that could be done while tumbling).
And as I mentioned in the dual-wield post of mine, you can try the only-key "throw" by playing this knueppeln stuff, where you release different spells on Q, E or R button respectively. A confusion there never occured to me, but confusing mouse throw and use happens regularily to me :-(
And as I mentioned in the dual-wield post of mine, you can try the only-key "throw" by playing this knueppeln stuff, where you release different spells on Q, E or R button respectively. A confusion there never occured to me, but confusing mouse throw and use happens regularily to me :-(
Yeah, I have played Knüppeln. ;) But it's a very bad example to base gameplay decisions on because it's not near the real gameplay. You don't need to throw things in Knüppeln.
But throwing exploding magic balls or just normal flints with Q is not a big difference.
Well, one interacts with your inventory and the other doesn't...?
Yes of course in one case you empty your inventory and in the other not (similar to some sort of magic scroll which never dissappears when throwing it away), but I would find it quite intuitive. I think in Minecraft Q is used the same way.
I have never played Minecraft. Is throwing a mechanic that is similarily important to how it's in Clonk?E.g. in Terraria you throw stuff around a lot less - mainly only to get rid of it or for some special items (e.g. torches). But you usually don't carefully aim and throw stuff to mine, or throw rocks to kill enemies or throw stuff to move them closer to your production facility (because you can just carry a bazillion items, unlike in Clonk).
No, I don't think that throwing stuff away, especially aiming is that important in these games, but Q feels quite intuitive.This discussion is in my opinion basically only about wether you prefer Q or right mouse button to throw stuff around.
And for me the right mouse button is dangerously near to the left mouse button.
>This discussion is in my opinion basically only about wether you prefer Q or right mouse button to throw stuff around.
>And for me the right mouse button is dangerously near to the left mouse button
Well, if that really is just what the discussion is about, then you could just select another button for throwing in the options. If that doesn't work (and I think it doesn't at the moment?), then it's a case for the bugtracker. Not for a forum discussion.
Well, it is not only the Q vs right click (which is not changeable (yet?)). It is also all the the point to get the sword+shield thing back. Anyway, I probably could live with the advanced Q(uickswitch) idea of Maikel, when Q is automatically activating/using the certain item, and is also shown on the clonk et cetera!
No, the real difference are the situations in which you throw things, the application of throwing, the precision necessary and so on.Are you really implying that Knüppeln with its major changes in controls is anywhere near the gameplay of a settlement game?
>Are you really implying that Knüppeln with its major changes in controls is anywhere near the gameplay of a settlement game?
No, but wether you press Q or the right mouse button to throw stuff away does not make that big difference, since you can't control the throwing power of your clonk. And aiming is still done with the mouse.
It's only somewhere safe, away from the left mouse button to prevent people like me to accidentally throw away essential stuff.
That's quite alright if you deem Q the better throwing key. I still don't understand why this solution isn't acceptable to you or anyone else who thinks the same.
I don't remember Maikels solution, but if it was about Q + Number to assign one Quickuse Item/Slot to immediately use it when pressing Q, I would be fine with that. Rebinding the key from Q to right mouse button manually is not a problem.I just wondered wether it would be (in standard key binding)more intuitive to use the mouse only for aiming and using (normal item and quickuse assigned item/slot) and put throwing on the Q button.
But that is a point where everyone has another opinion.
>> prevent people like me to accidentally throw away essential stuff.
Playing a couple of rounds yesterday I saw this happenening 3 times in 5 minutes playing Brunnen with 4people. kenny dumped his javelin, K-Pone threw his Bow (however here it may have been on purpose (no ammunition?!), and I once again threw my shield arround. I would call that quite frequent.
I also do not see the real difference between aiming with the mouse + press Q and aiming with the mouse + klick right? Knüppeln was just an example where this kind of control set up is already using keys instead of mouse buttons. And aiming there is also very important, maybe even harder than in classic OC (distances longer, more and quicker movements).
Furthermore I wonder how much you really need to throw items arround. In current melees, very few time you throw stones. More frequent is the bomb, but here the relevance timing is much higher than aiming (which is not limited when throw is on Q, anyway). In settlement rounds i would even claim that dynamite and dynamite boxes are more often used for mining than throwing flints very accurate. I admit I quite have some doubts about the claimed extreme importance of throwing in OC at all costs, and I also do not understand why throwing on Q (or any other easy accessible key) would reduce the ability of aiming/throwing quickly.
But as I said in a reply somewhere here already: when I can swap my right mouse button with Q, and the additional features of Maikels idea are going to happen, I get most things I wanted.
Furthermore I wonder how much you really need to throw items arround. In current melees, very few time you throw stones. More frequent is the bomb, but here the relevance timing is much higher than aiming (which is not limited when throw is on Q, anyway). In settlement rounds i would even claim that dynamite and dynamite boxes are more often used for mining than throwing flints very accurate. I admit I quite have some doubts about the claimed extreme importance of throwing in OC at all costs, and I also do not understand why throwing on Q (or any other easy accessible key) would reduce the ability of aiming/throwing quickly.
But as I said in a reply somewhere here already: when I can swap my right mouse button with Q, and the additional features of Maikels idea are going to happen, I get most things I wanted.
What about having to press e.g. Strg+mouse button to throw things away? Then the chance of throwing the wrong stuff away would be reduced, and right mouse button would be free for a second item functionality (for example when having equipped a sword together with a shield, right mouse button while having sword selected could immediately use the shield).
>What about having to press e.g. Strg+mouse button to throw things away?
What would be the advantage and it which situations would that advantage show?
We have two kinds of items right now, usable and non-usable items. And we have two main actions that you do to handle those: either use them or throw them away. Those are the most important things you can do with items. And as such, they should be the easiest to access (e.g. reduce the amount of keys necessary to execute those actions).
If we would allow a secondary use, we would either completely throw away a button for 99% of the use-cases or we would force developers to invent a secondary use for every item - even if it might be detrimental for the gameplay.
Here is a comment from me on that issue from 2012.
>Then the chance of throwing the wrong stuff away would be reduced
It's two completely different buttons right now. I don't think we can reduce it more.
So if we want to argue in that direction, I think we (you) should first clear out why we need to "free" the right mouse button and why we need secondary functions for most of the items.
Exactly this! The right mouse button has a very prominent use case which is throwing. We designed all items to have a single use, but such that some of them can be combined and lead to good combo's: sword + shield, throw + club, bow&arrow + windbag. It's just that we need to make these combo's easier to use again.
>What would be the advantage and it which situations would that advantage show?
E.g. for futuristic weapons with 2 different firemodes.
Furthermore when using left/right mouse button for different items, you can activate both of them much quicker. When no activation is available, e.g. rock or wood, the could be thrown away with mouse and strg+mouse.
But otherwise i agree with you. Throw is used much more often than secondary activation modes.
Perhaps I just need more practice to stop throwing away sword, shield, spear etc.
(Because in CR it was not possible to throw away e.g. bow, spear and two-hander without doubledown-throw. Some kind of small barrier against accidentally throwing them away.)
Some other things regarding inventory management:
I don't know if it already exists, but a way to reorder the stuff in the inventory slots would be nice.
Also I don't understand why you can select empty slots while scrolling with the mouse wheel instead of only switching to slots with stuff und don't allow scrolling while you only have one item.
Perhaps it comes with the experience, but in melees, especially in time-critical situations I often select the wrong items or empty slots when using the mousewheel.
Other things I miss at the moment is an intuitive and effective fast switch between 2-3 selectable items (not necssarily between the last two items you selected) and the nice look of showing e.g. the shield together with the sword. (Like the knight back in CR)
Thinking about CR, it had definitely a good and simple way of handling multiple items. You have one main slot and scroll through them with a keyboard button. That would be a good solution for OC, too.
That exists. It's the mouse wheel.I actually re-assigned the control to a key for me because I don't have a wheel.
With the mouse wheel it's actually easy to accidantally skip multiple slots. Hitting a keyboard key is more accurate than the mouse wheel. But I don't like to remember slots and use the numberkeys to access items. I didn't know you could reassign the mousewheel, that sounds like a good solution to me. What I also like about CR is the display of items. It has the items in a queue, rather than a hand icon that always selects the wrong slots.
There are basically three main differences between CR and OC inventory handling right now:1. CR doesn't have empty slots.
2. CR stacks multiple items of the same type.
3. OC allows you to switch through your inventory backwards. (If you don't need that, you can bind "forward inventory switch" to a keyboard button and have exactly the same behavior as CR.)
I feel like OC would benefit from #1. One of the core mechanics of the older Clonk titles is to throw rocks and other items at each other. This is still very relevant in OC, but it's a lot harder to do. In older Clonk titles, you could just spam the "Throw"-button: The Clonk would automatically empty his inventory and even automatically pick up additional items from the surroundings to throw. In OC, this doesn't work. After throwing a single item, you're left with an empty inventory slot. Quickly picking up items is very easy now by rapidly pressing Shift, this will however distribute the items over the other inventory slots. So OC requires you to juggle three things: Throw with Right Click, Pick Up with Shift, checking inventory slots by taking the eyes off the battle and switching to the right item to throw with the scroll wheel.
#2 makes inventory space less obvious ("Why can't I pick up another item now? Oh, I have three rocks."), and counting five items at a glance usually isn't an issue.
What if the inventory auto-switched to items of the same type when you throw something away?That would make the handling similar to the old stack system, without the problematic sides of having stackable items.
It'd either switch to a slot with the same kind of item in it, or move the other item into the old slot. The latter case would be more convenient to use with the mouse wheel/switch button.
This automatic switching should not affect the stored quickswitch slot.
This would be very advantageous in the heat of battle, and make inventory handling feel more familiar to CR players.
There's probably situations (mainly during settling) where you don't need this, but even in this case it won't be annoying since it leaves your quickswitch slot intact.
Yes, auto-selecting the next item would be nice in melee situations. Throwing three flints at an opponent is relatively difficult right now.On the other hand, auto-switching to the next item would make "throw away stuff to collect something else" needlessly difficult.
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