- I don't like any of the char designs -Probably out of nostalgia but not having the oldschool clonks available is a really bad move.
- I prefer the old music which is also missing.
- Everything looks dark and depressing when you enter the earth, the fog of war has become very annoying.
- I liked the classic control with mouse support which is also not available anymore.
- I was shocked that the buildtime and the clonks building the buildings is gone, this is a mayor mistake.
- Going 3D was big mistake, it's way too hard to create content now. Before you just opened a clonk object and repainted the spritesheet in paint, copied some code and changed it a bit to create a new object in a couple of minutes. Stuff was intuitive, now people have to be pretty much gamedevs to create content. The content that was made by casuals in clonk will be completely missing in open clonk. Not many will learn 3D modeling.
- Using space for talking and grabbing things is just horrible, you try to grab something and instead get a 3 minute conversation you've already gone trough. That can't be canceled (at least not with the Esc key which is the intuitive choice)
- To many HUD stuff that obstructs the view, if something is attacking you and you need to put something away quickly and take something out and then attack the hud stuff obstructs the view. The old slim clonk menus were there for a reason.
- The new melee is bad it might be better for a action oriented gameplay but it's destroying the old n' fun gameplay.
- But the most hardcore change that makes me not want to play the game is: Controlling several clonks at the same time is what made clonk to be clonk and it's gone. I don't even need to have more than one clonk now other than having them on standby somewhere.
Letting one clonk dig some of them build, a couple go into a fight and switching trough them and managing all of them yourself was what made clonk fun. I'm sorry to say this but open clonk is not clonk anymore it's become some kind of 2D minecraft or terraria ish.
I'm not sure if the new clonk you created is popular but I personally don't have fun playing it
> but I personally don't have fun playing it
Sorry to hear that but I guess there is nothing we can do about it. The things you listed (or called 'mistakes') are very obvious differences from older clonk titles and distinct design choices.
OC never tried and never will try to emulate the older clonk titles (well, someone tries). It is a different game by now. If you cannot take it just like that and rather want to stick to older clonk titles, I guess Clonk Rage is the game you are looking for.
>- Going 3D was big mistake, it's way too hard to create content now. Before you just opened a clonk object and repainted the spritesheet in paint, copied some code and changed it a bit to create a new object in a couple of minutes. Stuff was intuitive, now people have to be pretty much gamedevs to create content. The content that was made by casuals in clonk will be completely missing in open clonk. Not many will learn 3D modeling.
This is true, but can probably be tackled by an object pack that contains a lot of additional objects for scenario building purposes. Mainly decoration, but maybe more. This way developers can use, tweak or change certain objects according to their needs. Also with a current big emphasis on the new editors, developing (non graphical) content will become easier than ever before.
>- Using space for talking and grabbing things is just horrible, you try to grab something and instead get a 3 minute conversation you've already gone trough. That can't be canceled (at least not with the Esc key which is the intuitive choice)
I think I reported this as well, it could/should be on someones todo list.
>- But the most hardcore change that makes me not want to play the game is: Controlling several clonks at the same time is what made clonk to be clonk and it's gone. I don't even need to have more than one clonk now other than having them on standby somewhere.
I miss multiple Clonk management as well, hope we will at some point at least get some minor KI tasks like chopping tree, wood or using an elevator.
Apart from that you should be aware that there went a lot of time, playing and developing experience in most of the other stuff you have mentioned like the design, controls, music, fog of war and the fighting system. In particular the settlement aspect of the game should more or less still have a very familiar ring to it. For me settling in OC feels practically like settling in CR with some added features.
>I was mainly playing clonk4 and planet but I haven't played in a while. My cousin that played clonk4 and planet with me for years told me to try out open clonk. So I did and I've got some BIG issues with the game.
>I'm not sure if the new clonk you created is popular but I personally don't have fun playing it
It sounds like what you want could be Clonk Rage? Have you tried it? It is still actively played on clonkspot.
Don't misunderstand me OC looks like it has potential but it still feels very rough and unfinished. It's a bit hard to swallow if you have played the old clonk a lot, so having some classic features/ambience would make the transition easier.
Object pack would be nice but if you want ppl to create 3D simply it'll have to be like playing with lego.
Some more stuff:
- Buckets should be able to hold liquids, sand etc. too (bucket 50 Water & barrel 200)
- Earthballs should be collectable without buckets again
- RMB to fill the Lorry with what you got on hand if the lorry is grabbed (it's much faster and intuitive than using the E-Key menu)
- Option to rotate grabbed objects because they tend to get stuck a lot
- Digging very slowly without shovel (earth only) would be nice (esp. for survival style levels)
- Button press to snap direction for building loam straight
- Barrel is missing when swimming (its there when climbing on the back)
- Water shouldn't remove lava it should make stone out of it
- Barrels should be able to have a lid so they don't spill all the time
- Using the sawmill should not give much more wood it should be just faster and maybe give +1 wood compared to using the axe
- Torches should also be usable like the lamp not just on walls just make them illuminate less than the lamp to make them different
- Backpack item to hold a bit more items
- Since the melee is more action oriented I suggest you make LMB left arm RMB right arm. Split the items into one hand and 2 hand itmes. This would enable the use of sword and shield for knights. And open up a bunch of options for hazard cowboys etc.
>- RMB to fill the Lorry with what you got on hand if the lorry is grabbed (it's much faster and intuitive than using the E-Key menu)
This def. deserves a donation! Do you take donations? I mean the OC project in general.
> That donation page looks more like the core devs throw together some $$$ to buy some stuff.
Yes that's what we did. But it can be used for anything Openclonk-related. Doesn't have to be for music.
I don't think we have enough to pay anyone to do reasonable work though. The hourly wage of many OC-developers may be higher than what we have on the account. One idea would be to finish and polish the editor and than start a competition using the money as price fund. Either giving the money directly or e.g. 3D-printing a clonk model as a prize.
Do you have another concrete feature idea that could be bought in from donation money?
If the community is too small the ammount might not be large enough. But it could still be used as a reward for solving some of the major problems.
>could be fixed by hiring a professional that is good with physics/math/particles
Mhhh, if we just had a smart Phd in particle physics in our team...
No, really, I don't think math will ever be a problem with our setup :D
> hire developers to code the hard stuff/
Nah, this won't work. OpenClonk does not run on money. One could show his gratitude by donating, but I very much doubt that it would speed up development in any way. See Sven2.
this point is also interesting for me. i think throwing and using items are more important, since weapons are "use" anyway. but it's annoying you need to switch uncomfortably between sword/axe and shield. my idea would be using middle mouse botton just for the shield and leave the use/throw on LMB RMB as it is
OC was never meant to be the next version of CR. In the beginning of the development we sat together and thought about what was fun about Clonk and what was holding it back (as you probably know it was a niche game, only known around Germany). And even while some things we did might seem rude to very nostalgic people who spent a lot of their childhood with Clonk and basically have the Clonk4 control scheme in their blood (like myself *cough*), we deemed them necessary to make sure Clonk wouldn't die and would be able to reach new players that it didn't reach before.
One example is the new controls - convincing new people to try out Clonk was pretty tough, because most new players needed around 15 minutes before they were able to dig straight lines; and I am not even talking about stuff like double-dig to chop trees while carrying a loam (hint: didn't work) or having to press down-down-left-throw for some moves.
OC now has a control scheme that (even while not perfect) most people are already familiar to. You can basically put someone in front of OC, say "okay, you walk with WASD and aim with mouse" and they will be able to play (most of) the game. We thought this was really, really necessary if we want to get Clonk playable by more players.
The 3D graphics are similar - sure, they might not (yet) have the same charme as carefully drawn 2D sprites and they might be a bit harder to create for very new artists, but for medium or experienced artists they are actually easier! (And yes, I also sat down and pixeled together new animations for ye olde-school Clonk back then). One hint towards that change was that basically all bigger CR packs already used 3D modelling.
And other than that, it was a necessity because we were/are just a bunch of hobbyist game developers and for us, using 3D models actually made OpenClonk possible. Imagine we had a hand-drawn Clonk sprite (and only one person could actually draw new animations), if the person decided to quit work on OC, we would never get new animations. It's a different story for models. Most people can add new animations to existing 3D models if they invest just a bit of time.
On top of that, it allowed us to use fluent animations (e.g. when aiming) - unlike in CR where you had e.g. just 7 fixed aiming angles.
Making new skins for the Clonk is easier now, I'd argue, because you just have to draw one graphics file (the texture). I can remember at least one contributed RPG/adventure where the author drew a lot of new skins.
So much for a few of the points. Most other reasons are similar: either appeal to new players or making developement easier and faster. Or, of course, licensing reasons (e.g. with the old music).
>I was shocked that the buildtime and the clonks building the buildings is gone, this is a mayor mistake.
Could you explain why? This really, really sounds suspiciously like 99% nostalgia and 1% hot air. Sure, I remember my good old childhood, too. And waiting for your Clonks to finish a big castle was a part of that.
But do you really think it adds additionally gameplay value (as in "increasing fun and reducing frustration") for new players that are not mainly driven by their nostalgia? :)
I agree that the classic control was hard to use it's ok to change it, I'd still like the walk and dig until I stop you function. That is what made it possible to control multiple clonks at the same time.
If you want more/younger players then you need to rename open clonk. When I tried to introduce clonk to other players that's pretty much what I got a lot: Clonk? Whats that sound stupid.
Then there was always a split, some loved it most didn't like it at all. If open clonk isn't intended to be rages update make it more appealing to the newer gen by changing it more drastically.
Add in a real fighting system (attacking blocking, spells, effects etc.), item-slots (head body etc.) and make it more 2D rpg like. Create more action, that way you'll get players. Otherwise it's only the ones that like clonk anyway.
I always had fun designing my Castle by building it out of its parts. Make the building more fun and players won't mind building. Gathering resources and building is pretty much what the game is about. The most fun about clonk was gathering and building your base and then defending it and attacking the other players with everything you build. Or one team defended a caste and the others tried to get in. Every level was different it was even fun just to do survival stuff with the Eskimo pack.
Best would be a lot of AI features that let you command your clonks to gather, build, defend, attack etc., that way the player can choose if they want to gather/build or concentrate on battling and let the AI do the stuff they deem boring.
If I remember correctly that was kind of possible in newer clonk versions. You doubleclicked on an item and the clonk walked/dug there automatically.
- Loam can still be build into a wall, bridge etc. but metal can't, this is kinda stange. Either you let players build things like that with loam, stone , metal etc. or remove it completely and let the players build walls and bridges like the other buildings.
- Using up and down to rotate grabbed objects doesn't always work that is why I thought it was completely missing.
- OC feels much slower than Clonk
An idea you can think about: Loam stays formable / builds in the direction you point to or you freely draw it on screen near your clonk, stone becomes bricks like, wood: planks, metal: bars etc.. Building a house would create outlines where you then place/draw in the different materials. Like a construct out of 3 wood planks and then place stones as walls etc. The player uses the mouse to place and A and D key to rotate the planks, bricks etc. The more complex a building is the more a player needs to place like that. If the player does not want to do that he can just command a clonk to build it. Letting the AI build would be slower but the player could do other stuff with another clonk.
You could even completely throw out the old building style and let the players design their own buildings Terraria style. Sure it would change open clonk drastically but if you really try to get away from the traditional clonk and get more players that would be one way to make the game more interesting.
To me open clonk seems to want to go into a different direction but kind of hasn't. The art style has become more realistic with male, female, beards, glasses etc. and the dark underground. But it's still cutesy which doesn't work if you go for a more mature look. You either have to create atmosphere like minecraft does or go cutesy both generally doesn't work. The old clonk was all bright and cute, the music was light, even the gameplay was cute. You had those small human looking thingies that threw stuff at each other and even if you used a blood and gore addon it was still adorable seeing the clonks fall all over the place.
Throwing stuff to make clonks fall all over the place was kind of clonks thing but in my opinion it was also the main reason a lot of people didn't like playing it.
My suggestion for further development is to either go for a more mature look and gameplay (no more clonks falling around like crazy, only when they are hit with something really heavy) this would also mean renaming the game but keeping clonks basics: gathering, building, fighting
Stick with the cute clonk style. That would mean going back a bit to the classic looks and gameplay. I'm not talking about the controls: Less FOW / more of the map to see, faster movement, throwing the shit out of other clonks by being able to throw what you pick up faster.
Currently OC pace is kinda slowish which isn't necessarily bad but it really depends on in which direction you are trying to go with it. Slower games often go for using tactics / mindgaming like Dark Souls does. The classic clonk was more of an fast paced game like the old arcade games were. (If you ignore the build time of things.) Now with the disability to play all clonks at the same time and having 5 items and going trough them with the mousewheel or number keys has made it slow compared to the old clonk. The AI in some levels seems to throw things like in the classic clonk though.
>- Throwing soil balls is also missing, that was really important to fill in holes unstuck other clonks etc.
Yes, material objects like snowballs and earth chunks are still in but were disabled because they were spawning non-stop during digging since the digging is very different compared to CR and there is no "dig materials out mode". Pressing Double Mouse or Mouse + Right Mouse could trigger that mode but that secondary item usage would only exist for the shovel then. The bucket is there as a replacement/compensation. I think we should consider bringing normal chunks back somehow. Besides shovel and axe?, any other item that provides such an easy and basic thing is a bit annoying. I never use it even though I would like to use earth. And especially, it kills Minor Melee because you cant hurt anyone with the bucket.
>- OC feels much slower than Clonk
Might be the deceleration topic again. You can also feel it when you jump on a lower wall, then your Clonk will slide down the wall instead of just grabbing the wall. And when you turn around, your Clonk needs to brake etc.
Ort you could change the stupid bucket a bit. If you hold a bucket while digging, it fills with earth / sand / snow chunks. Let's say up to five. You can throw them one by one by clicking while bucket in hand. As a bonus this would integrate well with the new liquid objects wich Marky did.
> If you hold a bucket while digging, it fills with earth / sand / snow chunks
This is how the bucket currently works (maybe not in the last release, I forgot). The only difference would be that you can throw earth content objects individually.
Btw: I think you can use the mouse wheel to cycle through the inventory, just like in Clonk Rage.
I have a big problem with the way OC currently manages items. It's really bad if you have tools, weapons etc. together with the throwables, you always throw the wrong things and it's impossible to quickly pick up something and throw it.
>You could even completely throw out the old building style and let the players design their own buildings Terraria style. Sure it would change open clonk drastically but if you really try to get away from the traditional clonk and get more players that would be one way to make the game more interesting.
That's actually something that was long planned. The idea was to replace the old CR castles with something that you could draw/build more freely so that you could build a huge castle around your buildings. That's actually part of why you cannot enter buildings anymore: they are basically just "workstations" inside a huge castle!
It's just that noone had time to tackle that yet :)
>Throwing stuff to make clonks fall all over the place was kind of clonks thing but in my opinion it was also the main reason a lot of people didn't like playing it.
That's an important point. The controls in OC sometimes still feel a bit... mushy? You can still get stuck or stumble over small parts of the landscape which makes the controls feel weird. But I don't think there is an easy way to solve it (Terraria "solved" it by making the landscape consist of straight blocks and therefore has less edges..) - I don't think that disabling tumbling would help a lot. Someone would have to sit down and change/fix how movement is done.
>The art style has become more realistic with male, female, beards, glasses etc. and the dark underground. But it's still cutesy which doesn't work if you go for a more mature look.
Imo the art style has come a long way and looks really good now. Something that kind of doesn't fit are the buildings... they are not comicy enough. But sadly we are usually short on people who want to make new graphics :(
Composition screenshot: http://forum.openclonk.org/attach_show.pl?aid=2455
Screenshot thread: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=3208;pg=1
>Currently OC pace is kinda slowish which isn't necessarily bad but it really depends on in which direction you are trying to go with it
I would actually say it's faster than CR - but it's waaaay slower than it could be. Especially compared to stuff like Knüppeln.c4f. I think that could be helped a lot by redoing the movement, too. But I don't really have any precise ideas about what to change.. (except for "MAKE IT BETTER!").
PS: One thing: I don't think the general look is about to change EVER. We would need a lot more active graphic designers for that :)
>Loam can still be build into a wall, bridge etc. but metal can't, this is kinda stange. Either you let players build things like that with loam, stone , metal etc. or remove it completely and let the players build walls and bridges like the other buildings.
You can build wallkits from metal. I don't think being able to build stuff out of loam implies that a player needs to be able to build stuff out of metal (except for nostalgic CR people, of course). I, for one, think it's okay that way. With metal, you could ruin the landscape pretty quickly. Now you can give players all the metal they need (e.g. for construction) but still restrict the amount of metal "bridges" by disallowing wall kits (or making them harder to get).
It would be best if you implement that Krita style of taking donations then and hire artists with that money.
But before you do that you need to have an Art Style that is then used troughout the whole game.
I'm guessing the materials are still 2D is that correct? That is kind of what rubs me the wrong way it looks like you have 3D and 2D mixed together.
Do you use 3D animations and put them on spritesheets or is the engine 3D capable?
The current art style looks very thrown together, but since you lack artists that is understandable. I'm guessing you're trying to go the Cute Action path for open clonk then.
Let me play a bit longer maybe I'll figure something out about the movement.
> It would be best if you implement that Krita style of taking donations then and hire artists with that money.
I don't think so. We are not a company and not commercially active. This is a hobbyist project, from a hobbyist team. Maybe you got that wrong. Money makes everything more complicated.
> Do you use 3D animations and put them on spritesheets or is the engine 3D capable?
It's 3D capable, using the Ogre mesh format.
> Only way to get faster than that using one clonk would be to make a "pick a up all items from the ground" button.
The E menu does have tabs for "Surrounding". If you select that and a lorry on the other side and press the "transfer all" buttons in the middle, you get exactly that: Pick up all items from the ground.
>Only way to get faster than that using one clonk would be to make a "pick a up all items from the ground" button
It's Shift+W :)
I've tried using shift + w with the lorry grabbed and it doesn't work, it only puts stuff on hand. I still have to open the E menu or put in the stuff with rmb + mousewheel.
Shift + S to put everything down would nice. Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.
>I also dislike the F key as menu key, every game uses the ESC key as menu key
Yes, redoing the escape menu (which just SUCKS) has been an open issue for a long time as well :I
>I've tried using shift + w with the lorry grabbed and it doesn't work, it only puts stuff on hand. I still have to open the E menu or put in the stuff with rmb + mousewheel.
>Shift + S to put everything down would nice. Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.
Hmm, that's actually a good point. When grabbing a container, should collected items go into that container in general? (So, also with normal Shift collection?)
Also, Shift+S is currently needed to abort picking up. In case you decide you don't want to pick up anything (you can select an item to pick up with Shift+A/D btw)
>Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.
Done. All Shift collection goes into the lorry now.
-the Basement should be called basis or foundation most people use the therm basement as in cellar. I also suggest you change that into a player chosen size (start and endpoint with mouse) and adjust the stones needed depending on the chosen size. It could work as a wall then too depending on how you build it.
I'm not a fan of overly complicated games, simplicity is important. So try to make as less items as possible. I kind of like the items like the pickaxe, shovel and hammer. But even minecraft lets you punch earth tress etc. Tools should help you do you task and in some cases be a must, but not one tool for every task that overcomplicates the game unnecessarily.
- Clonks are carrying around barrels as if they weigh nothing, the old classic barrel were more like buckets but the new ones are huge they should slow down a clonk.
- Items should not be autocreated one should have to dedicate a clonk to do that task.
- Construction of simple tools should not need electricity they should be created in a forge that uses wood or coal. The workshop should create them faster and more complex tools.
The sawmill looks very complex so why not make the player create the sawblade and cogs in the workshop.
- The elevator takes up too much space, I've always build 2 adjacent to each other because of clonks nature to get clonks stuck.
- Before Using elevators ladders would be a nice build that doesn't require electricity.
> Clonks are carrying around barrels as if they weigh nothing, the old classic barrel were more like buckets but the new ones are huge they should slow down a clonk.
How would this improve the fun you have playing the game? Especially since you yourself stated that OC feels more slow (something I personally disagree with). But how is it more fun to run slower in general?
> Resources for the sawmill should include metal
Why exactly? Because in reality you'd need metal? This also is a deliberate design choice, so you are not forced to construct a foundry evertime single time before you can construct a sawmill.
Using tools to make wood/planks should come first the sawmill should be a faster alternative.
The reason terraria and mincraft have a big fanbase is the construction part. I was in the impression open clonk strives to get more modern and get a bigger playerbase so focusing more on the building part and giving the players more creative freedom in doing so is pretty much the only way to go. OR like I said go back to the roots and stay with the small fanbase.
The problem I currently see is that OC core stuff is lacking and that there are not many players so there isn't that much player content either. It's also hard to build a player base nowdays since there is flood of games. So the only way I see OC succeeding is getting everything that was good from the old clonk and adding things that make it even better. The state OC is currently in the gameplay is not even near classic clonk in any way.
>The same why the lorry gets heavy and hard to push: Realism.
"Realism" alone is not a good reason in game design most of the time. We should only add things that make the game more fun to the players. In "reality" you would never be able to 'hangle' on a ceiling - are you saying we should throw that out, too?
Oh, and you would not be able to dig tunnels.
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