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- - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 13:56
I was mainly playing clonk4 and planet but I haven't played in a while. My cousin that played clonk4 and planet with me for years told me to try out open clonk. So I did and I've got some BIG issues with the game.

- I don't like any of the char designs -Probably out of nostalgia but not having the oldschool clonks available is a really bad move.
- I prefer the old music which is also missing.
- Everything looks dark and depressing when you enter the earth, the fog of war has become very annoying.
- I liked the classic control with mouse support which is also not available anymore.
- I was shocked that the buildtime and the clonks building the buildings is gone, this is a mayor mistake.
- Going 3D was big mistake, it's way too hard to create content now. Before you just opened a clonk object and repainted the spritesheet in paint, copied some code and changed it a bit to create a new object in a couple of minutes. Stuff was intuitive, now people have to be pretty much gamedevs to create content. The content that was made by casuals in clonk will be completely missing in open clonk. Not many will learn 3D modeling.

- Using space for talking and grabbing things is just horrible, you try to grab something and instead get a 3 minute conversation you've already gone trough. That can't be canceled (at least not with the Esc key which is the intuitive choice)
- To many HUD stuff that obstructs the view, if something is attacking you and you need to put something away quickly and take something out and then attack the hud stuff obstructs the view. The old slim clonk menus were there for a reason.
- The new melee is bad it might be better for a action oriented gameplay but it's destroying the old n' fun gameplay.

- But the most hardcore change that makes me not want to play the game is: Controlling several clonks at the same time is what made clonk to be clonk and it's gone. I don't even need to have more than one clonk now other than having them on standby somewhere.

Letting one clonk dig some of them build, a couple go into a fight and switching trough them and managing all of them yourself was what made clonk fun. I'm sorry to say this but open clonk is not clonk anymore it's become some kind of 2D minecraft or terraria ish.

I'm not sure if the new clonk you created is popular but I personally don't have fun playing it
Parent - By KKenny Date 2016-06-19 14:16 Edited 2016-06-19 18:00
You can still create objects using 2d sprites.. though it could be hard to match the style of the other objects(?).
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2016-06-19 15:20

> but I personally don't have fun playing it


Sorry to hear that but I guess there is nothing we can do about it. The things you listed (or called 'mistakes') are very obvious differences from older clonk titles and distinct design choices.
OC never tried and never will try to emulate the older clonk titles (well, someone tries). It is a different game by now. If you cannot take it just like that and rather want to stick to older clonk titles, I guess Clonk Rage is the game you are looking for.
Parent - - By ala [de] Date 2016-06-19 16:07

>- Going 3D was big mistake, it's way too hard to create content now. Before you just opened a clonk object and repainted the spritesheet in paint, copied some code and changed it a bit to create a new object in a couple of minutes. Stuff was intuitive, now people have to be pretty much gamedevs to create content. The content that was made by casuals in clonk will be completely missing in open clonk. Not many will learn 3D modeling.


This is true, but can probably be tackled by an object pack that contains a lot of additional objects for scenario building purposes. Mainly decoration, but maybe more. This way developers can use, tweak or change certain objects according to their needs. Also with a current big emphasis on the new editors, developing (non graphical) content will become easier than ever before.

>- Using space for talking and grabbing things is just horrible, you try to grab something and instead get a 3 minute conversation you've already gone trough. That can't be canceled (at least not with the Esc key which is the intuitive choice)


I think I reported this as well, it could/should be on someones todo list.

>- But the most hardcore change that makes me not want to play the game is: Controlling several clonks at the same time is what made clonk to be clonk and it's gone. I don't even need to have more than one clonk now other than having them on standby somewhere.


I miss multiple Clonk management as well, hope we will at some point at least get some minor KI tasks like chopping tree, wood or using an elevator.

------------

Apart from that you should be aware that there went a lot of time, playing and developing experience in most of the other stuff you have mentioned like the design, controls, music, fog of war and the fighting system. In particular the settlement aspect of the game should more or less still have a very familiar ring to it. For me settling in OC feels practically like settling in CR with some added features.

>I was mainly playing clonk4 and planet but I haven't played in a while. My cousin that played clonk4 and planet with me for years told me to try out open clonk. So I did and I've got some BIG issues with the game.
>I'm not sure if the new clonk you created is popular but I personally don't have fun playing it


It sounds like what you want could be Clonk Rage? Have you tried it? It is still actively played on clonkspot.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 18:33 Edited 2016-06-19 19:09
Yea I'd prefer rage but my cousin wants to play open clonk so I'll just have to make do with what's here.

Don't misunderstand me OC looks like it has potential but it still feels very rough and unfinished. It's a bit hard to swallow if you have played the old clonk a lot, so having some classic features/ambience would make the transition easier.

Object pack would be nice but if you want ppl to create 3D simply it'll have to be like playing with lego.

Some more stuff:

- Buckets should be able to hold liquids, sand etc. too (bucket 50 Water & barrel 200)
- Earthballs should be collectable without buckets again
- RMB to fill the Lorry with what you got on hand if the lorry is grabbed (it's much faster and intuitive than using the E-Key menu)
- Option to rotate grabbed objects because they tend to get stuck a lot
- Digging very slowly without shovel (earth only) would be nice (esp. for survival style levels)
- Button press to snap direction for building loam straight
- Barrel is missing when swimming (its there when climbing on the back)
- Water shouldn't remove lava it should make stone out of it
- Barrels should be able to have a lid so they don't spill all the time
- Using the sawmill should not give much more wood it should be just faster and maybe give +1 wood compared to using the axe
- Torches should also be usable like the lamp not just on walls just make them illuminate less than the lamp to make them different
- Backpack item to hold a bit more items

- Since the melee is more action oriented I suggest you make LMB left arm RMB right arm. Split the items into one hand and 2 hand itmes. This would enable the use of sword and shield for knights. And open up a bunch of options for hazard cowboys etc.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-19 19:24

>- RMB to fill the Lorry with what you got on hand if the lorry is grabbed (it's much faster and intuitive than using the E-Key menu)


done
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 20:06 Edited 2016-06-19 23:23
Wow that's fast o.O

This def. deserves a donation! Do you take donations? I mean the OC project in general.
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-06-19 23:31
I don't think so. But Nachtfalter keeps a donation account on clonkspot that we used to buy instrument for musicians before:

https://clonkspot.org/oc/ocaccount.htm
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 06:55
The Krita guys use Donations to hire developers to code the hard stuff/ what the community wants to have next. Krita is growing very fast lately thanks to that. Maybe a donation system like that would benefit open clonks development too. If I donate I kind of want to support the development and not some Musicians.  That donation page looks more like the core devs throw together some $$$ to buy some stuff. You should really consider creating a donation page in the menu, there are a lot of ppl that want to support projects like this, that can't actively develop it but want to support it somehow.
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-06-20 13:50

> That donation page looks more like the core devs throw together some $$$ to buy some stuff.


Yes that's what we did. But it can be used for anything Openclonk-related. Doesn't have to be for music.

I don't think we have enough to pay anyone to do reasonable work though. The hourly wage of many OC-developers may be higher than what we have on the account. One idea would be to finish and polish the editor and than start a competition using the money as price fund. Either giving the money directly or e.g. 3D-printing a clonk model as a prize.

Do you have another concrete feature idea that could be bought in from donation money?
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 14:24 Edited 2016-06-20 14:29
The missing AI features could be funded with donations.  Like stated further down the design could be redone with donation money. Maybe the mushiness/ getting stuck clonk has always suffered from when climbing jumping etc. could be fixed by hiring a professional that is good with physics/math/particles and whatnot. Any change that would mean a lot of work basically and the community chooses the priority by donating the needed ammount. Only problem would be finding the right guy for the right job.\

If the community is too small the ammount might not be large enough. But it could still be used as a reward for solving some of the major problems.
Parent - - By Marky [de] Date 2016-06-20 18:50
It's not as if the missing AI features are hard to implement, we just don't feel like it at the moment (or are implementing it in other packs, where there is no strict design goal - for example I am going to add this in the classic pack).
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 20:05
Yes but the problem I see with that is new players will play the standard scenarios first and that first impression pretty much decides if they stick with OC or move on. Putting all that work in custom scenarios won't get new players to play OC.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-20 20:30

>could be fixed by hiring a professional that is good with physics/math/particles


Mhhh, if we just had a smart Phd in particle physics in our team...

No, really, I don't think math will ever be a problem with our setup :D
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2016-06-20 15:27 Edited 2016-06-20 15:29
Yes yes, I will. I didn't get to that yet. But it would just link to https://clonkspot.org/oc/ocaccount.htm anyway.

> hire developers to code the hard stuff/


Nah, this won't work. OpenClonk does not run on money. One could show his gratitude by donating, but I very much doubt that it would speed up development in any way. See Sven2.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-06-19 20:15
"- Since the melee is more action oriented I suggest you make LMB left arm RMB right arm. Split the items into one hand and 2 hand itmes. This would enable the use of sword and shield for knights. Ond open up a bunch of options for hazard cowboys etc."

this point is also interesting for me. i think throwing and using items are more important, since weapons are "use" anyway. but it's annoying you need to switch uncomfortably between sword/axe and shield. my idea would be using middle mouse botton just for the shield and leave the use/throw on LMB RMB as it is
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 20:30 Edited 2016-06-20 06:57
If it was the old clonk I'd agree with the throwing. But now you have the e menu to drop and take all items so there is no need to throw in the items in the lorry or buildings anymore. In the old clonk you pretty much stood still and triggered throw until all items were in the lorry. You had your 5 clonks each carrying a stone or flint and let all of them throw their stuff at the same time or you had like 20 items under you and you threw a volley of items on your opponent. Throwing objects has become less important in OC, so using a key press to change into throw would be sufficient, like shift + LMB or RMB throw the item.
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-06-19 23:12

> Throwing objects has become less important in OC


Throwing objects is still very important in melees.
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 23:22
Guess I haven't played enough OC then.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-19 17:21
Hey, thanks for the feedback!

OC was never meant to be the next version of CR. In the beginning of the development we sat together and thought about what was fun about Clonk and what was holding it back (as you probably know it was a niche game, only known around Germany). And even while some things we did might seem rude to very nostalgic people who spent a lot of their childhood with Clonk and basically have the Clonk4 control scheme in their blood (like myself *cough*), we deemed them necessary to make sure Clonk wouldn't die and would be able to reach new players that it didn't reach before.
One example is the new controls - convincing new people to try out Clonk was pretty tough, because most new players needed around 15 minutes before they were able to dig straight lines; and I am not even talking about stuff like double-dig to chop trees while carrying a loam (hint: didn't work) or having to press down-down-left-throw for some moves.
OC now has a control scheme that (even while not perfect) most people are already familiar to. You can basically put someone in front of OC, say "okay, you walk with WASD and aim with mouse" and they will be able to play (most of) the game. We thought this was really, really necessary if we want to get Clonk playable by more players.

The 3D graphics are similar - sure, they might not (yet) have the same charme as carefully drawn 2D sprites and they might be a bit harder to create for very new artists, but for medium or experienced artists they are actually easier! (And yes, I also sat down and pixeled together new animations for ye olde-school Clonk back then). One hint towards that change was that basically all bigger CR packs already used 3D modelling.
And other than that, it was a necessity because we were/are just a bunch of hobbyist game developers and for us, using 3D models actually made OpenClonk possible. Imagine we had a hand-drawn Clonk sprite (and only one person could actually draw new animations), if the person decided to quit work on OC, we would never get new animations. It's a different story for models. Most people can add new animations to existing 3D models if they invest just a bit of time.
On top of that, it allowed us to use fluent animations (e.g. when aiming) - unlike in CR where you had e.g. just 7 fixed aiming angles.
Making new skins for the Clonk is easier now, I'd argue, because you just have to draw one graphics file (the texture). I can remember at least one contributed RPG/adventure where the author drew a lot of new skins.

So much for a few of the points. Most other reasons are similar: either appeal to new players or making developement easier and faster. Or, of course, licensing reasons (e.g. with the old music).

>I was shocked that the buildtime and the clonks building the buildings is gone, this is a mayor mistake.


Could you explain why? This really, really sounds suspiciously like 99% nostalgia and 1% hot air. Sure, I remember my good old childhood, too. And waiting for your Clonks to finish a big castle was a part of that.
But do you really think it adds additionally gameplay value (as in "increasing fun and reducing frustration") for new players that are not mainly driven by their nostalgia? :)

xoxo Zapper
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-19 18:49 Edited 2016-06-20 07:03
The way OC is currently played there pretty much is no need for multiple clonks. Building something costs time and resources even in real life and is present in pretty much every game. When you create stuff in the foundry it's also not instantly produced. Just having things pop up is boring and unrealistic. Players that don't like to wait for the buildings or items to finish wont play a game like clonk anyway or only play the action levels. I'd rather have the bucket become a container item for any object, have backpacks for 10+ items, be able to gather more in one go and then build the buildings with multiple clonks and spend some time building. If you deem the build time boring make a minigame out of it, if the player builds it directly.
I agree that the classic control was hard to use it's ok to change it, I'd still like the walk and dig until I stop you function. That is what made it possible to control multiple clonks at the same time.

If you want more/younger players then you need to rename open clonk. When I tried to introduce clonk to other players that's pretty much what I got a lot: Clonk? Whats that sound stupid.
Then there was always a split, some loved it most didn't like it at all. If open clonk isn't intended to be rages update make it more appealing to the newer gen by changing it more drastically.
Add in a real fighting system (attacking blocking, spells, effects etc.), item-slots (head body etc.) and make it more 2D rpg like. Create more action, that way you'll get players. Otherwise it's only the ones that like clonk anyway.

I always had fun designing my Castle by building it out of its parts. Make the building more fun and players won't mind building. Gathering resources and building is pretty much what the game is about. The most fun about clonk was gathering and building your base and then defending it and attacking the other players with everything you build. Or one team defended a caste and the others tried to get in. Every level was different it was even fun just to do survival stuff with the Eskimo pack.

Best would be a lot of AI features that let you command your clonks to gather, build, defend, attack etc., that way the player can choose if they want to gather/build or concentrate on battling and let the AI do the stuff they deem boring.
If I remember correctly that was kind of possible in newer clonk versions. You doubleclicked on an item and the clonk walked/dug there automatically.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 08:50 Edited 2016-06-20 09:54
- Throwing soil balls is also missing, that was really important to fill in holes unstuck other clonks etc.
- Loam can still be build into a wall, bridge etc. but metal can't, this is kinda stange. Either you let players build things like that with loam, stone , metal etc. or remove it completely and let the players build walls and bridges like the other buildings.
- Using up and down to rotate grabbed objects doesn't always work that is why I thought it was completely missing.
- OC feels much slower than Clonk

An idea you can think about: Loam stays formable / builds in the direction you point to or you freely draw it on screen near your clonk, stone becomes bricks like, wood: planks, metal: bars etc.. Building a house would create outlines where you then place/draw in the different materials. Like a construct out of 3 wood planks and then place stones as walls etc.  The player uses the mouse to place and A and D key to rotate the planks, bricks etc. The more complex a building is the more a player needs to place like that. If the player does not want to do that he can just command a clonk to build it. Letting the AI build would be slower but the player could do other stuff with another clonk.

You could even completely throw out the old building style and let the players design their own buildings Terraria style. Sure it would change open clonk drastically but if you really try to get away from the traditional clonk and get more players that would be one way to make the game more interesting.

To me open clonk seems to want to go into a different direction but kind of hasn't. The art style has become more realistic with male, female, beards, glasses etc. and the dark underground. But it's still cutesy which doesn't work if you go for a more mature look. You either have to create atmosphere like minecraft does or go cutesy both generally doesn't work. The old clonk was all bright and cute, the music was light, even the gameplay was cute. You had those small human looking thingies that threw stuff at each other and even if you used a blood and gore addon it was still adorable seeing the clonks fall all over the place.

Throwing stuff to make clonks fall all over the place was kind of clonks thing but in my opinion it was also the main reason a lot of people didn't like playing it.

My suggestion for further development is to either go for a more mature look and gameplay (no more clonks falling around like crazy, only when they are hit with something really heavy) this would also mean renaming the game but keeping clonks basics: gathering, building, fighting

OR

Stick with the cute clonk style. That would mean going back a bit to the classic looks and gameplay. I'm not talking about the controls: Less FOW / more of the map to see, faster movement, throwing the shit out of other clonks by being able to throw what you pick up faster.

Currently OC pace is kinda slowish which isn't necessarily bad but it really depends on in which direction you are trying to go with it. Slower games often go for using tactics / mindgaming  like Dark Souls does. The classic clonk was more of an fast paced game like the old arcade games were. (If you ignore the build time of things.) Now with the disability to play all clonks at the same time and having 5 items and going trough them with the mousewheel or number keys has made it slow compared to the old clonk. The AI in some levels seems to throw things like in the classic clonk though.
Parent - - By Armin [de] Date 2016-06-20 09:52

>- Throwing soil balls is also missing, that was really important to fill in holes unstuck other clonks etc.


Yes, material objects like snowballs and earth chunks are still in but were disabled because they were spawning non-stop during digging since the digging is very different compared to CR and there is no "dig materials out mode". Pressing Double Mouse or Mouse + Right Mouse could trigger that mode but that secondary item usage would only exist for the shovel then. The bucket is there as a replacement/compensation. I think we should consider bringing normal chunks back somehow. Besides shovel and axe?, any other item that provides such an easy and basic thing is a bit annoying. I never use it even though I would like to use earth. And especially, it kills Minor Melee because you cant hurt anyone with the bucket.

>- OC feels much slower than Clonk


Might be the deceleration topic again. You can also feel it when you jump on a lower wall, then your Clonk will slide down the wall instead of just grabbing the wall. And when you turn around, your Clonk needs to brake etc.
Parent - - By Pyrit Date 2016-06-20 11:21 Edited 2016-06-20 11:34
I once proposed a modifier button to change an item's mode. You could switch a shovel between normal dig mode and balls dig mode  (lolol).

Ort you could change the stupid bucket a bit. If you hold a bucket while digging, it fills with earth / sand / snow chunks. Let's say up to five. You can throw them one by one by clicking while bucket in hand. As a bonus this would integrate well with the new liquid objects wich Marky did.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2016-06-20 12:17

>  If you hold a bucket while digging, it fills with earth / sand / snow chunks


This is how the bucket currently works (maybe not in the last release, I forgot). The only difference would be that you can throw earth content objects individually.
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 13:46
@pyrit I completely agree with you.
Parent - - By Dmyst [nl] Date 2016-06-20 09:55
I just had an idea how to keep the 5 items and still be able to throw a lot of objects: Instead of switching the slot: always use/throw what is in slot 1 and by using the mousewheel and numberkeys the items are switched not the slots. Slots are filled from left to right so that the first slot always has an item.
Parent - By Pyrit Date 2016-06-20 11:27
That's pretty much how old clonk titles did it and it worked better than in OC imo. Getting rid of empty slots is a good thing imo.
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-06-20 14:23
I didn't like the CR system too much because items would jumble around whenever you switch. Right now if I put my shovel in slot 1 and my pickaxe in slot 2 I can always switch to these items with the same keys. In Clonk Rage, I would have to count slots first.

Btw: I think you can use the mouse wheel to cycle through the inventory, just like in Clonk Rage.
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 16:00
Then I suggest splitting items into different types and adding equipment slots for swords, tools, armor, shields etc. In the classic clonk there were never problems with throwing items around, because you could equip items and they thus got separated from the throwables.

I have a big problem with the way OC currently manages items. It's really bad if you have tools, weapons etc. together with the throwables, you always throw the wrong things and it's impossible to quickly pick up something and throw it.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-20 09:59

>You could even completely throw out the old building style and let the players design their own buildings Terraria style. Sure it would change open clonk drastically but if you really try to get away from the traditional clonk and get more players that would be one way to make the game more interesting.


That's actually something that was long planned. The idea was to replace the old CR castles with something that you could draw/build more freely so that you could build a huge castle around your buildings. That's actually part of why you cannot enter buildings anymore: they are basically just "workstations" inside a huge castle!
It's just that noone had time to tackle that yet :)

>Throwing stuff to make clonks fall all over the place was kind of clonks thing but in my opinion it was also the main reason a lot of people didn't like playing it.


That's an important point. The controls in OC sometimes still feel a bit... mushy? You can still get stuck or stumble over small parts of the landscape which makes the controls feel weird. But I don't think there is an easy way to solve it (Terraria "solved" it by making the landscape consist of straight blocks and therefore has less edges..) - I don't think that disabling tumbling would help a lot. Someone would have to sit down and change/fix how movement is done.

>The art style has become more realistic with male, female, beards, glasses etc. and the dark underground. But it's still cutesy which doesn't work if you go for a more mature look.


Imo the art style has come a long way and looks really good now. Something that kind of doesn't fit are the buildings... they are not comicy enough. But sadly we are usually short on people who want to make new graphics :(
Composition screenshot: http://forum.openclonk.org/attach_show.pl?aid=2455
Screenshot thread: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=3208;pg=1

>Currently OC pace is kinda slowish which isn't necessarily bad but it really depends on in which direction you are trying to go with it


I would actually say it's faster than CR - but it's waaaay slower than it could be. Especially compared to stuff like Kn├╝ppeln.c4f. I think that could be helped a lot by redoing the movement, too. But I don't really have any precise ideas about what to change.. (except for "MAKE IT BETTER!").

PS: One thing: I don't think the general look is about to change EVER. We would need a lot more active graphic designers for that :)

PPS:

>Loam can still be build into a wall, bridge etc. but metal can't, this is kinda stange. Either you let players build things like that with loam, stone , metal etc. or remove it completely and let the players build walls and bridges like the other buildings.


You can build wallkits from metal. I don't think being able to build stuff out of loam implies that a player needs to be able to build stuff out of metal (except for nostalgic CR people, of course). I, for one, think it's okay that way. With metal, you could ruin the landscape pretty quickly. Now you can give players all the metal they need (e.g. for construction) but still restrict the amount of metal "bridges" by disallowing wall kits (or making them harder to get).
Parent - - By Dmyst [nl] Date 2016-06-20 11:16
Lucky for you I know a bit of 3D Modeling but I'm not very reliable, since I suffer from chronic pain and can't work like others. That said I'd be able to do a thing or two but that's about it.

It would be best if you implement that Krita style of taking donations then and hire artists with that money.
But before you do that you need to have an Art Style that is then used troughout the whole game. 

I'm guessing the materials are still 2D is that correct? That is kind of what rubs me the wrong way it looks like you have 3D and 2D mixed together.
Do you use 3D animations and put them on spritesheets or is the engine 3D capable?

The current art style looks very thrown together, but since you lack artists that is understandable. I'm guessing you're trying to go the Cute Action path for open clonk then.

Let me play a bit longer maybe I'll figure something out about the movement.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2016-06-20 12:26

> It would be best if you implement that Krita style of taking donations then and hire artists with that money.


I don't think so. We are not a company and not commercially active. This is a hobbyist project, from a hobbyist team. Maybe you got that wrong. Money makes everything more complicated.

> Do you use 3D animations and put them on spritesheets or is the engine 3D capable?


It's 3D capable, using the Ogre mesh format.
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 13:04
Krita is a community based open source project so I don't see any difference. As stated earlier money was used to buy instruments for a musician, so open clonk pretty much already did what the krita guys are doing. Just not as intensive and not as big part of the development.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 13:32
After giving it more thought OC doesn't need to get faster as in faster walking clonks. It just needs that AI stuff back to split the workload on several clonks. In the classic you had your 5 to 10 clonks that you moved at the same time and let them throw stuff in the lorry. That was really fast way to collect, much faster than using the E menu in OC with one clonk. Only way to get faster than that using one clonk would be to make a "pick a up all items from the ground" button. Also opening and managing stuff in that big E menu kind of pauses the "action-flow".  In clonk classic you always threw everything around to manage it which is kind a monotonous task and I don't miss it but it was an ingame action. This is probably also a reason the game seems slower even though the menus are kinda practical. (I personally dislike them a lot because they are too big, obstruct the view and are not intuitive to use)
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2016-06-20 13:44

> Only way to get faster than that using one clonk would be to make a "pick a up all items from the ground" button.


The E menu does have tabs for "Surrounding". If you select that and a lorry on the other side and press the "transfer all" buttons in the middle, you get exactly that: Pick up all items from the ground.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 14:03
With button I mean a dedicated keyboard key. Currently you use the mouse to do that and it's slow. If it had a keyboard shortkey then pressing E "shortkey" E would be fairly fast too I guess.
Parent - By Mupf [de] Date 2016-06-20 14:18
It's still faster than in classic clonk if you have, lets say twice as much items as clonks to throw them.
Parent - By Sven2 Date 2016-06-20 14:20
Yes, the menus are still missing keyboard controls. That's supposed to be added at some point.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-20 20:33

>Only way to get faster than that using one clonk would be to make a "pick a up all items from the ground" button


It's Shift+W :)
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-21 08:32
It would be nice to have a list with all the controls and special stuff like that. It's not in the key config, if you hadn't told me I prob. wouldn't have learned that. You could go for player presses ESC and gets a menu where there is something like a command list. The list then is read from the keyconfig + the extra stuff like shift + w, rmb + grabbed lorry etc.. Or put everything in the key config and make it accessible ingame. I also dislike the F key as menu key, every game uses the ESC key as menu key. The Q E R F V X Z keys should be used for ingame realted stuff that needs fast access.

I've tried using shift + w with the lorry grabbed and it doesn't work, it only puts stuff on hand. I still have to open the E menu or put in the stuff with rmb + mousewheel.
Shift + S to put everything down would nice. Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-21 16:51

>I also dislike the F key as menu key, every game uses the ESC key as menu key


Yes, redoing the escape menu (which just SUCKS) has been an open issue for a long time as well :I

>I've tried using shift + w with the lorry grabbed and it doesn't work, it only puts stuff on hand. I still have to open the E menu or put in the stuff with rmb + mousewheel.
>Shift + S to put everything down would nice. Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.


Hmm, that's actually a good point. When grabbing a container, should collected items go into that container in general? (So, also with normal Shift collection?)
Also, Shift+S is currently needed to abort picking up. In case you decide you don't want to pick up anything (you can select an item to pick up with Shift+A/D btw)
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-22 08:54

>Maybe you can make it so that shift + w automatically puts everything inside a container that has been grabbed.


Done. All Shift collection goes into the lorry now.
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 11:45 Edited 2016-06-20 13:53
-Dug out flints should not be auto-collected since nothing else is. Players will learn to be careful with the flint material it also adds a bit of danger to digging them out.
-the Basement should be called basis or foundation most people use the therm basement as in cellar. I also suggest you change that into a player chosen size (start and endpoint with mouse) and adjust the stones needed depending on the chosen size. It could work as a wall then too depending on how you build it.

I'm not a fan of overly complicated games, simplicity is important. So try to make as less items as possible. I kind of like the items like the pickaxe, shovel and hammer. But even minecraft lets you punch earth tress etc. Tools should help you do you task and in some cases be a must, but not one tool for every task that overcomplicates the game unnecessarily.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 12:18 Edited 2016-06-20 13:34
- Resources for the sawmill should include metal
- Clonks are carrying around barrels as if they weigh nothing, the old classic barrel were more like buckets but the new ones are huge they should slow down a clonk.
- Items should not be autocreated one should have to dedicate a clonk to do that task.
- Construction of simple tools should not need electricity they should be created in a forge that uses wood or coal. The workshop should create them faster and more complex tools.

The sawmill looks very complex so why not make the player create the sawblade and cogs in the workshop.

- The elevator takes up too much space, I've always build 2 adjacent to each other because of clonks nature to get clonks stuck.
- Before Using elevators ladders would be a nice build that doesn't require electricity.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2016-06-20 12:30 Edited 2016-06-20 12:32

> Clonks are carrying around barrels as if they weigh nothing, the old classic barrel were more like buckets but the new ones are huge they should slow down a clonk.


How would this improve the fun you have playing the game? Especially since you yourself stated that OC feels more slow (something I personally disagree with). But how is it more fun to run slower in general?

> Resources for the sawmill should include metal


Why exactly? Because in reality you'd need metal? This also is a deliberate design choice, so you are not forced to construct a foundry evertime single time before you can construct a sawmill.
Parent - - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 12:35 Edited 2016-06-20 12:56
The same why the lorry gets heavy and hard to push: Realism. So why is the barrel an exception? Like I've stated earlier I'd rather get more items in one go and concentrate on building my village/caste or whatever. The building part takes less time than the gathering, gathering stuff is like 70% of the work/time.

Using tools to make wood/planks should come first the sawmill should be a faster alternative.

The reason terraria and mincraft have a big fanbase is the construction part. I was in the impression open clonk strives to get more modern and get a bigger playerbase so focusing more on the building part and giving the players more creative freedom in doing so is pretty much the only way to go. OR like I said go back to the roots and stay with the small fanbase.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-06-20 14:29
how about having a more arcarde style objects pack and leave more realistic settlement packs as addon content? in old clonk times there were some much deeper settlement scenarios, than in the action oriented gameplay the official clonk had
Parent - By Dmyst [de] Date 2016-06-20 15:21 Edited 2016-06-20 16:56
Yea that would be an option but I think it would be better to have the main game more representative, otherwise it'll lack players. It's true that Clonk was far from perfect in its normal state, the community provided what the core game was lacking because it was easy to create stuff for clonk.

The problem I currently see is that OC core stuff is lacking and that there are not many players so there isn't that much player content either. It's also hard to build a player base nowdays since there is flood of games. So the only way I see OC succeeding is getting everything that was good from the old clonk and adding things that make it even better. The state OC is currently in the gameplay is not even near classic clonk in any way.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2016-06-20 20:35

>The same why the lorry gets heavy and hard to push: Realism.


"Realism" alone is not a good reason in game design most of the time. We should only add things that make the game more fun to the players. In "reality" you would never be able to 'hangle' on a ceiling - are you saying we should throw that out, too?
Oh, and you would not be able to dig tunnels.
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