Whatever I'm done with this, way too complicated to create stuff for OC. Sorry but I retract my statement that I'll model some stuff for OC and I don't think anyone will ever create anything with everything being all over the place.
Instead of creating a shitload of content for OC and planning the next content packs/scenarios you guys should seriously consider what made Clonk so popular in the first place. If the goal is not to make the game easier, less complicated to play and more accessible to new players, I see 0 possibility that this game will ever get popular.
Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh but seeing that clonks "spirit" what made the game so popular in the first place is completely ignored makes me not want to invest any more time in this. I have 0 fun playing OC and I've given a lot of constructive critic. Take it to heart and concentrate on what is important and I'll give the game another shot but for now I'm done with this.
> what made Clonk so popular in the first place
Clonk has been around for a long time and has never really been popular. So I don't think copying from older Clonk titles is necessarily the best idea. It's probably better to look at other games and see what we can learn from them.
Besides, it's more fun to try something new than just reimplement something we already played years ago.
> It's like you don't want casuals to create content for OC....
We do and usually those are just fine with creating things and posting them on the forum. But it's alright, I don't intend to persuade you to rethink your decision.
Just my two cents:
git (or often github) isn't uncommon in open source development nor unknown in the developing world. If you have a look at other projects, you'll find they use it, too, and to contribute, you must use it yourself. You mentioned Krita a lot. Well, they use git.
We don't even expect people to use it though. You can just download the resources from the website which I don't find very complicated once you've done it.
The reason clonk was popular(ish) at least in germany wasn't that the game was absolutely awesome it was a just a good game. It was different than the rest what made it interesting. What made it awesome was the community that added in everything that was missing with the core game. When the core game got boring players were able to play something out of the many user created content. What made this possible was that it was very easy to create content for it. It's the same reason Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Half Life and Half Life 2 got so very popular. And you don't even need to make a fancy editor to make that possible, just a simple page with the games content and some description and links to some tutorials would be enough in the beginning. But you basically need to be a full on gamedev and need hours to just find out on how to create content for OC. When you place so many hurdles in the players way, they won't do shit. You need a core game that attracts players and you need content to be created easily for it. You already have a big handicap by choosing something as unknown as clonk.
Not realizing this and making me spell it out is pretty bad. If you like the game the way it is and you have fun doing things the way you do them, then by all means continue. I can see that you have put a lot of work in this game and that is very commendable, but players don't care how much work you put in a game. The only thing that counts is if it is fun to play and if it is fun to play long term.
* If you plan to contribute to the core game, you ARE a game dev: You want to create reusable assets like a game dev, you want your stuff to go into the version control like a game dev, you want others and yourself to be able to work with your content later on like a game dev. And as such, you wont get anywhere far in terms of contributing without using git.
* If you plan to just make your own maps and packs, you would possibly consider yourself what is a "modder" in other communities, or a "content creator" in what might be steam workshop or something. And here, you speak the truth: Our tools may not very newbie-friendly.
I find myself just passing models and textures to others, because I just don't want to bother with working out the newest quirk of the blender exporter. There is other stuff which is still a bit rough around the edges, sure, but there are also efforts to create IDEs for a more comfortable workflow, most notably windmill. You could join them and contribute some positive and constructive ideas to their existing projects.
Back when I created stuff for CR, I would model it in Blender, set up the animations, export them to a .png file and put that into MyObjects.c4d and then script everything.
Now when I create stuff for OC, I model it in Blender, set up the animations, export them to a .mesh file and put that into MyObjects.ocd and then script everything.
Maybe it's just me, but my workflow didn't really change a lot.
PS: And in the official development team we also used version control (like git) back then (of course).
>This is true, but can probably be tackled by an object pack that contains a lot of additional objects for scenario building purposes. Mainly decoration, but maybe more. This way developers can use, tweak or change certain objects according to their needs. Also with a current big emphasis on the new editors, developing (non graphical) content will become easier than ever before.
About me changing my mind and not contributing, as I stated I'm chronically ill, I can't work like others and if stuff gets too complicated like it is the case with OC I just don't do it because it's too much stress for me.
My plan was to make a couple of models to help out but I just don't have the capacity to become a full OC dev which seems to be needed in order to create graphics/models for OC.
I can offer to give OC a try from time to time and give you my honest opinion. (if you want to hear it)
I'm pretty much only doing this because I still remember some of you guys from the Clonk4 and Planet time. So I kinda see you a little bit as childhood friends. If it wasn't for this I'd just completely ignore OC.
I don't really like playing OC the way it currently is, I still prefer Classic Clonk for nostalgic reasons or other games.
> But you basically need to be a full on gamedev and need hours to just find out on how to create content for OC.
The missing editor is a big problem. A new editor for scenarios is being developed; you may have seen the blog posting here: http://blog.openclonk.org/2016/06/openclonk-editor/
Most developers do realize there are major things missing, some of which were present in Clonk Rage. It's valuable to get feedback on what players find important.
> Not realizing this and making me spell it out is pretty bad.
...but it's very sad that you show such a poor attitude towards people who spend their free time building a game. If you have a suggestion or miss something, it's sufficient to say "I would like to see..." or "In my opinion, X should be changed to...". You are expressing an opinion about what you'd like to see in the game here. But it's just one opinion. It doesn't carry more weight than other people's ideas even if you feel strongly about them.
The way you write, most of your possibly valuable feedback will probably be discarded because noone likes to be insulted.
What I did was express my opinion, if my opinion is insulting to you, you should seriously think about why you find it insulting.
All I did was tell you what I think is wrong with OC. Yes I write a bit harshly but you have to realize that I mean well and that sometimes the truth hurts.
If you prefer to not get feedback from me, that's no problem I'll just leave and let you guys do your thing. I'll spend my time on other things then. I'm not here to flatter you guys, even if you feel like you need it after all that work you put into OC.
As I stated earlier players don't care how much time and lifeblood you put into a game or they only care if it's fun to them.
Have Fun then and goodbye
One example (for more, see Sven below):
>Wow and in all these years you've been creating OC nobody has ever thought of making the content easier to access!?
Which I read as "Wow, how can you be soo ignorant to my needs". Do you really think we have not "thought about making content easier to access"? In Clonk Rage you had NO CHANCE to actually get the development content of the development team. We have worked since 2009 to make OC more moddable and everything "easier to access". There are so many more possibilities to script stuff now which were impossible in ClonkRage because they were hardcoded in the engine and back then it was impossible to just clone the RedWolf Design version control system to look at stuff yourself.
We have many, many people who invested hundreds of hours into making OC easier to mod and into making the development smoother for developers.
So, yes, we actually have made the content easier to access than it was back in CR.
>I didn't know that you have put hundreds of hours into making it easier
Yes, I do realize this. But if you also know that you can't actually see everything, you should reconsider phrasing your 'opinion' in a way that is clearly unfriendly. (That works like that in real life too, by the way.).
>Why do I need to use git to get to the content?
Don't forget that what you want is not the "content". You can download the content in a .zip file if you want.
What you want is the raw development material, which you could not get at all in CR. It's under version control (in a git repos), because that has worked best for the people who work with that for the last 7 years or so.
That doesn't mean it cannot be changed. It just means that you are the first one in half a decade to find that to be a blocker.
By the way, you are right about the graphics stuff being not as tidely organized as the code stuff. That's because we did not have a team of reliable artists during the last years (but we HAD a team of reliable scripters and engine coders).
Organization takes time. And if noone is there who actually needs the organization (as it has been for the last 7 years), it's unlikely that someone starts caring about that.
ala (and shadow) tried taking on that part for a bit in the last year btw. A lot of good things came from that. Sadly still no reliable artist :)
Didn't read the whole discussion, but here are my two dingos: I understand your frustration, I often feel frustrated too with OC developement. But using git is necessarry for developement, or are there any alternatives? (The milestone-project is partly organized in a Shared Dropbox Folder, which is ... unprofessional and often confusing for contributors.)
Promote game developement for noobs is...confusing to me! Are there other games out there where you can be involved in core developement as a noob? I can't remember any. Game developement is by far the worst in my experience, but can also be rewarding - trough many hours of pain. Sorry to break the romance here :|
If you don't want to contribute to core elements and develop content there are at least three? Editors for that. Still the whole ogre-export-thingy is a bit messy, it's not possible to change that i think? Except for switching the engine to something user friendly like Unity (most unlikely!)
I fully understand you, but as long as there are no alternative procedures to develop this discussion is meaningless.
> Not realizing this and making me spell it out is pretty bad.
This statement does not address ideas about the game. It's about the development team. You are basically saying that the OC team is clueless and that we needed you to show us the major problems.
To show you the difference, just compare two ways of me writing to you:
a) If you want to be heard, you should write your feedback in a more friendly way.
b) If you want to be heard, you should write your feedback in a more friendly way and it's pretty bad that you don't realize it and that I have to spell it out for you.
Doesn't version b) sound a bit insulting to you?
So I'm not allowed to criticise the development team? If I address problems other than game content it's insulting?
Even if it's things I think are important to make OC better?
I guess it wouldn't contain stuff like "Wow, instead of creating a shitton of things you should seriously do other stuff. And it's bad that I have to tell you this." (rephrased for clarity)
PS: especially if you take it personal if someone answers just with the same honesty :) imagine we would quit every time someone tells us what we do is shit.
> I'm completely ok with a or b
Well, you may have a pretty thick skin. I would not want to hear b.
> So I'm not allowed to criticise the development team? If I address problems other than game content it's insulting?
> Even if it's things I think are important to make OC better?
You can criticize the game, the way we develop, our priorities, the way we handle feedback or the way we talk with newbies. But you should avoid criticizing the cognitive abilities of the people behind the project. That's generally considered ad hominem.
Things like "you don't realize" or "you never thought about" are easily seen as personal insults particularly if it's about topics that we have discussed at great length in the past. They also add nothing to the discussion. Just leave them out and you should be fine!
> Even if it's things I think are important to make OC better?
Do you think telling the OC developers that they are clueless makes OC better?
>Do you think telling the OC developers that they are clueless makes OC better?
Well, we haven't tried yet. Ur stoopid Sven!
..OC any better yet?
On the other hand, you also have to face some realities on the other side of the coin. To cut out an hour from newbies getting into the game, somebody else has to spend dozens if not hundreds of hours. Hours we could have spent making a better game in the first place. Worse - hours that can be very unrewarding because no matter how much effort you put into it, some random entitled guy will still shout at you for not doing more.
So yes, I think you are right. This would be very valuable work to do. Anybody that puts effort into this has my full support. But it's dirty work, and I wouldn't dream of *demanding* it of anybody.
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