My idea would be Sun 11/13 8pm german time (2pm EST). Would anyone be willing to join?
Anyway, I'd like to join the stream.
Did you want "unlisted" instead of "private"?
I watched the video again on twitch. I have to say, the editor still (or already?) feels over-complex. There is so much clicking through menus and comboboxes for just a few lines of code that I think I would not use these functions myself.
I know it is geared towards newbies who cannot script, but I'd say what feels complex to me will feel even more complex to newbies. It is yet another tool they'd have to learn. I find it odd to have functionalities in an editor that experienced developers wouldn't use because they seem too cumbersome but which should be used by newbies.
Of course, that is just my opinion after watching and re-watching the stream, so I'd really recommend to give the editor some exposure to the public by releasing version 8 now and let it grow and refine over the years by real-user feedback rather than developing more and more complex features "in the box".
Bothersome tasks include things like placing levers and connecting them with doors. Doing this script-only includes a lot of playtesting to see if you managed to place everything correctly in the landscape and so on. Dialogues and/or sequences do require a lot of clicking around but also a good deal of remembering the interface of our respective libraries. I don't think that doing this in script is faster or easier than in the editor; but then maybe I am not that proficient in these libs.
Message("Horst: Hallo Spieler! Finde meinen Goldklumpen!")
if(Not(FindObject(GOLD, 10,10,200,200))) goto(10);
Message("Spieler: Hier ist dein Goldklumpen!");
It was really hard for me, but I managed to understand things and script my first scenario! Now, a typical script looks like this:
Tutorial 01: Wandering Wipf
First introduction to the world of OpenClonk: explains basic movement controls.
Following controls and concepts are explained:
* Clonk HUD
* Walking and jumping with WASD
* Scaling, wall jump and hangling
* Swimming, diving and breath
* Liquids: water
static guide; // guide object
protected func Initialize()
// Tutorial goal.
var goal = CreateObject(Goal_Tutorial);
goal.Name = "$MsgGoalName$";
goal.Description = "$MsgGoalDescription$";
// Place objects in different sections.
var time = CreateObject(Time);
time->SetTime(18 * 60 + 30);
// Dialogue options -> repeat round.
SetNextMission("Tutorials.ocf\\Tutorial01.ocs", "$MsgRepeatRound$", "$MsgRepeatRoundDesc$");
// Gamecall from goals, set next mission.
protected func OnGoalsFulfilled()
// Achievement: Tutorial completed.
// Dialogue options -> next round.
SetNextMission("Tutorials.ocf\\Tutorial02.ocs", "$MsgNextTutorial$", "$MsgNextTutorialDesc$");
// Normal scenario ending by goal library.
I don't think that I would have had a chance to figure out wtf is happening there. Some things may be easy to understand, but the sheer volume of concepts and functions is just intimidating.
So even if we make scripting more accessible, we'd need something easy to get started. Maybe small sample scripts, etc.
Edit: It is an interesting development. At the start, most of the functionality was in the engine code, the script language was simple and did not have many features. Now, much more of the game logic is in script and the script is much more powerful now. But now, it has become so complex, that we do need another layer of simplification. ;.( Are we going in (20-year) circles?
Sometimes I wonder how many of the old folks are still around and what they are up to. How long has it been now? Maybe it's time for a reunion party?
I agree that some of the features have become complex to a point where it's easier to script. This would include conditional actions, variables, the wizard's staff, number pads, etc.
However, two points in defense of the current design:
1. Getting started should be easier. There always seems to be a big jump from playing to editing because you need to know too much to even write a simple scenario script. My idea is that players can start out simply and move on to more complex features.
Step 1: Draw a map and place objects. This should be really easy now.
Step 2: Discover object properties. E.g. place a moving brick and adjust its movement range. Place a spawn point and set its spawn object. Place a clonk and enable its AI. Place a switch and connect it to the door.
Step 3: Action properties. Play a message when you interact with a clonk or switch
Step 4: Sequences, Triggers, etc.
I don't think players are too stupid to understand more complex concepts. It's just that they won't arrive there.
I think that right now, steps 3 and 4 are not natural yet. If you place a dialogue, you have to find the "Dialogue" property and then figure out why there's a "Sequence". My current idea would be to add links to step-by-step tutorials to the welcome page and to the help menu (as a video or as a simple wiki page). But if you you have ideas how to make the interface more natural to understand, please let me know!
We're also missing a lot of the "Step 2" elements. I think if every object in the original pack had 2-3 simple properties you can set, you can already build some really nice maps without having to understand dialogues and sequences.
2. Independent of newbie-friendliness: Building things together in network mode is fun! I think that it was pretty cool to build e.g. the parkour test scenarios where everyone was designing different sections between the checkpoints. For editor sessions like this, the more complex actions are not a problem because we know how to use them.
> I think that right now, steps 3 and 4 are not natural yet.
It seems that these kind of flowchart interfaces (http://www.musicianeer.com/temp/interpolation_graph.jpg) are the way to go with displaying such no-code-approaches. Those are usually easy to understand.
>I find it odd to have functionalities in an editor that experienced developers wouldn't use because they seem too cumbersome but which should be used by newbies.
I think there is potential to make the editor work well even for experienced developers. The great thing about working with the editor is that you never have to restart. Everything you change is immediately there to try out.
It would be great if regular Clonk development could be more like that. There is already some support for reloading scripts, but it's not very useful for developing scenarios (for example, the scenario script isn't reloaded).
Reloading scripts while keeping state is clearly a hard problem, but maybe the editor could have some built-in restricted editing facilities?
Pictures: Won't that make all the entries pretty large? I always found the Clonk Planet scenario options dialogue incredibly clumsy to use.
Another idea for the object creator would be to hold down Alt to "pick" a definition by cliking an existing object. Similar to how you pick the landscape material while drawing.
> Pictures: Won't that make all the entries pretty large?
Perhaps only show the picture of the selected object in the list?
In my opinion a picture is useful to distinguish between objects with similar names, or when you search for an object but don't know the actual name by heart.
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