Some discussion about controls

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Topic General / General / Some discussion about controls

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By Newton

Date 2010-02-13 01:53 Edited 2010-02-15 17:53

Bla bla, please talk about controls.

By Nachtfalter [de]

Date 2010-02-13 09:29

Is it possible to duck? Maybe it helps in some situations.

By TheBuilder [us]

Date 2010-02-13 09:45

y not add crouch and crawl, crouch for a more stable firing stance, and crawl for going through short passages?

By Nachtfalter [de]

Date 2010-02-13 09:57

Thats what I meant, yes.

By Atomclonk [de]

Date 2010-02-15 13:06

I think, it was a joke.

By TheBuilder [us]

Date 2010-02-15 22:10

not really

By Enrique [de]

Date 2010-02-13 15:12

Crouch like the indianclonk?

By TheBuilder [us]

Date 2010-02-13 15:28

dunno, havent played one yet

By Caesar

Date 2010-02-14 00:46

It's a bit unflexible there...

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 22:16

I was thinking it could be nice to make the Clonk walk when holding down. Crouching would also be good, I think.

Edit: Though now that I think of it, Clonks are so short already. This probably isn't necessary.

By Caesar

Date 2010-02-13 10:46

Shift + 1234567890 → Select Crew

By Travis Date 2010-02-17 23:22

Yeah and other things, since the keyboard is now open for all, there should be very much stuff you can do very quickly with the keyboard. Perhaps even customized shortcuts.

By Zapper

Date 2010-02-13 12:23

>Drop by holding down (S) while pressing the mouse button

I don't like that. You can press every movement key and, for example, use a sword while doing that. Only [down] is different. In our testgames I frequently dropped stuff, for example while diving just because for me, as a player, it made no sense that you suddenly drop stuff when clicking while moving

>left mouse button for using/throwing the primary selected item
>right mouse button for using/throwing the secondary selected item
>Force throwing by holding shift while pressing the mouse button.

I would _always_ have only "use" on the LMB/RMB. It is not consistent at all that you throw some objects when clicking while you do other stuff with others on the same button. Objects without a ControlUse-function should not be thrown on a simple mouse button click, imo

By Maddin Date 2010-02-15 15:59

How about using MMB for dropping?

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-15 17:25

Shall it drop first selected item, or second one? IMHO bad idea.

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 17:34

Not everyone has a middle mouse button. And how would this work for selecting which item is dropped?

By Atomclonk [de]

Date 2010-02-15 19:49

>Not everyone has a middle mouse button.

BFBC 2, for example, uses the middle mouse button (pressing the wheel) for melee attack. ;)

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 20:18

Hmm, well. I suppose it could be modified if someone didn't have a MMB.

By MastroLindo Date 2010-02-22 20:44

a mouse with MMB costs 5E, like a magazine or a pint of beer.

I guess that if you take an average of the total of internet users 99%+ will have a mouse with mousewheel...

I really don't see a problem in considering it a standard in 2010...

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-23 10:15

Well. Some MMB's are hard to press, others are hard to press w/o scrolling, and some can be pressed in few different ways. Also pressing MMB isn't as hmmmm, "smooth" as LMB/RMB. Also - how would game determine, which item to drop? Much better would be - as I once said - move dropping to Ctrl+L/RMB and Shift+L/RMB would be secondary use.

By MastroLindo Date 2010-02-23 22:26

there are so many AAA games using the MMB since at least 5 years that I don't really see the reason why not using it in openclonk.

I always use the MMB in any game and I never had any problem with that, but apart from me, I still have to see in any other game community critics about the game using the mousewheel...

However just to make everybody happy: why not allow control configuration from a option menu so everybody can play as he prefers?

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-24 00:56

>why not allow control configuration from a option menu so everybody can play as he prefers?

I think players would realize themselves it is easier to have a drop command for each hand than having to fiddle around with the contents of the inventory; especially in melees. It also does not make sense: if you are holding a shovel in real life in your left hand, you do not have to put it in your right hand before dropping it. You just drop it. Limiting controls like this will likely just confuse (why do I have to switch before dropping, yet I don't have to switch to use??) and frustrate the player.

By MastroLindo Date 2010-02-24 21:05

because in real life you are shot with a cannon or go fishing at north pole? :|

your post is not at all related with the sentence you are quoting.

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-25 02:14

Actually, I was pointing out that if the player had configurable controls, of course he is going to pick the control set that is not limited.

>because in real life you are shot with a cannon or go fishing at north pole? :|

Considering the number of battles in which people have used cannons, do I even need to answer that? Also, the map "Arctic" you're referring to does not refer to the north pole; it is referring to the arctic circle which some Inuit people still live on today.

By MrBeast [de]

Date 2010-02-13 13:33

Some "alternative use" button would be good. So you can make an item usable for 2 things. e.g. An sword could be used for striking and blocking or an rope could be pulled or climbed.

By MastroLindo Date 2010-02-14 17:25

I agree...

I would have loved to have 2 button keys per item on the mouse. for example for:
-selecting a spell from a quick menu popped up with right click button and cast the spell with left button
-use a default attack with a sword with left button, a more powerful but slower attack with right button
-choose arrow type (flaming, not flaming, etc) with right click and shoot with left click
-turning on a bomb with right click and throwing with left click

and so on.... 1 button per item in my opinion will soon introduce many horrible workarounds with "additional buttons/pressing twice buttons/combination of the previous ones" in order to allow the use of more options for the same objects.

Classic clonk did the same and in fact almost every additional package introduced new control interfaces to handle the new items, creating a mess and distrupting usability and easiness of learning.

However let's see how it will behave, I don't think it's someting impossible to change even further on

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-14 17:53

Currently you use right button for using second item. I think, that throwing item out could be moved to Ctrl+Click, while Shift+Click would be "Secondary use"

By Zapper

Date 2010-02-14 18:12

>I think, that throwing item out could be moved to Ctrl+Click, while Shift+Click would be "Secondary use"

I agree there. Throwing should always _only_ be on Ctrl+Click.
The items that have a secondary function would have to make it visible to the player somehow, though

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-14 20:52

Well, but maybe then we should also make picking items up non-automatic? Its kinda strange, especially as we are moving into direction of realism in OC. Maybe items should get picked up ONLY when holding Ctrl? Also there could be some animation of picking up?

By Zapper

Date 2010-02-15 19:35

>Maybe items should get picked up ONLY when holding Ctrl?

I like that idea

By AlteredARMOR [ua]

Date 2010-02-17 18:38

I actually like this idea. When player presses Ctrl (if, of course, it can be handled as the key - not a modifier) the images of the first 10 items lying around will appear above his head eche numbered from 0 to 9. He can click on the image or press a respective key to pick up the item he wants most.

This will of great help when you have lots of items at the same place (for example, rock chunks after a huge explosion) and you want to find something particular (lost shovel?) among them.

By TheBuilder [us]

Date 2010-02-17 21:24

Great idea, i always did find it annyoing to have to pick up a pile of rocks just to find the one peice of gold from blowing up that last little bit of gold deposite, this would help tremendosly, though u might want to add a "go to next 10 objects" type thing in case there is more than 10 of them.

By DarkEagle [de]

Date 2010-02-17 22:57

I think it would be better to use a system like Diablo 2 has. When pressing the key, a textbox with the name of the object appears above each object in the surrounding area; click the text to grab the object.

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-18 00:55

This might take something away from the environmental feel of the game. If you can see any object just by holding a button, you're looking less at the game, and more at a list of words. You know what I mean?

By DarkEagle [de]

Date 2010-02-18 01:49

Hm yes, might be.
But "Where the f**k is the last piece of wood I need to complete the hut!?" and "Argh, all those stones, where is the chunk of gold?!" are kinda annoying. I see it as a good possibility to reduce this stress factor.

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-18 07:14

Since you can zoom, objects should be easily seen on close inspection of the map.

By DarkEagle [de]

Date 2010-02-18 14:01

Not if they lie at the very same place.

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-18 10:19

Objects of same type could of course get grouped, so you do not see: "Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Wood piece", but:
"20xRock, 1xWood piece"

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-17 22:27

>Maybe items should get picked up ONLY when holding Ctrl?

I'm going to conform with the crowd and say I also think this is a good idea. ;)

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 17:41

>The items that have a secondary function would have to make it visible to the player somehow, though

Maybe we could have a small 'II' icon on one corner of the inventory icon. A 'secondary use indicator' would require it's meaning to be explained in a tutorial, because everything I can think of (without taking up space) is very vague.

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-14 21:35

This is a very good idea imho.

By MastroLindo Date 2010-02-15 19:24

why not putting the secondary use on the mousewheel?

and oblige the player to put the object on the first slot (left button) if he wants to use its secondary function? (aka: no secondary function for right-button slot?)
in fact:
-secondary functionalities on the keyboard imho will become less intuitive and fast-responding (very important for weapons)
-not all objects require more than one functionality

By the way, allow user interface changes in scripting lead to chaos and very bad results on classic clonk. I would vote for designing a flexible system from the beginning rather than having any scripter implement its own way of doing things

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 20:15

>why not putting the secondary use on the mousewheel? ... and oblige the player to put the object on the first slot (left button) if he wants to use its secondary function?
>-secondary functionalities on the keyboard imho will become less intuitive and fast-responding (very important for weapons)

This seems kind of contradictory. You want more intuitive and fast responding controls, but you want to limit second functionality to only one mouse button? This will make the player constantly switch items to use the secondary function, causing chaos and make things much slower.

>-not all objects require more than one functionality

then hitting 'ctrl+click' would do the same as just 'click'. I think the idea of a modifier instead of a sometimes useless button (middle mouse) makes a lot more sense.

>By the way, allow user interface changes in scripting lead to chaos and very bad results on classic clonk.

I think the only thing that would differ would be some alternate-use icon on the inventory image.

By kevda

Date 2010-02-14 21:33

i would prefer to customize it via c4script. so any scenario has his own suitable controls of the interface.

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-15 10:30

This would possibly bring too much chaos...

By Luchs

Date 2010-02-15 14:00

Is it possible to use more mouse buttons (if your mouse has more of them) to control more than two objects without switching?

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-15 14:55

I dont think it should be possible. It would give unfair advantage to players with better mouses...

By Sven2

Date 2010-02-15 15:45

I'd hate crippling functionality because of some "unfair advantage" argument. If you were to host a tournament where it's really important that 3-button-mice players don't stomp those with two buttons, you could always introduce some rule that certain control sets may not be used. But in the vast majority of games, you just want to the controls to be as intuitive and powerful as possible.

By Asmageddon [pl]

Date 2010-02-15 17:24

Until we make clonk have more than two hands it is illogical to make players able to use more than two buttons for using items...

By Ringwaul [ca]

Date 2010-02-15 17:46

With the system we currently have, this would suggest a Clonk can have more than 2 arms. Maybe if a mouse has 4 buttons (and we use an alternate-use for items), you could set button 3 to be the alternate-use for the first item, and button 4 to be the alternate-use for the second item.

Topic General / General / Some discussion about controls

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