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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Capture the Wipf
- - By DarkEagle [de] Date 2010-02-23 19:52
Do you remember this scenario? It was created back in 2002 by Tyrone.
What do you think about creating a remake of this scen for OpenClonk. It offers multiplayer fun, unique game play, could also make use of the Jar of Winds and won't be that time-consuming to script.

Back in 2007, I made a remake of this scen for CR beta (I guess), which I would provide as source for further developing on this scenario.

I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
Attachment: CTW2007.c4s (129k)
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-23 20:08 Edited 2010-02-23 22:04
It is great.
Even without knowing anything about it... the idea of making scenarios is still great.
If there are persons here who played Counter-Strike at least a bit they would know that there are very popular maps there (like, for instance, de_dust) which have been played for lots of years and are still popular. So what makes them be so popular? Have their developer(s) predicted such popularity while making the map? No. The map became popular by itself since many gamers actually liked it. (Ok, did someone know that CoFuT would be that popular? Again, no) . So what I think is: make as much scenarios as you (I mean the entire community) are capable of. The diversity is highly appreciated. Later players will decide which scenarios are worth playing and which are not.
P.S. I think the best scenarios created now (to this moment and from now on) will even form a basic, so-called "Official" pack
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-23 20:16

>make as much scenarios as you (I mean the entire community) are capable of.


I think hoping to create a good scenario by making a lot and finding one out of them that is good; probably isn't a good idea. There shouldn't be a quota for the amount of scenarios created; instead the map-maker should be really focusing on created at least one very good scenario at a time. For instance, the different races currently in OC are very similar, and are just races over different types of terrain. I think these all could be improved by use of unique items(ie: as the Kamikaze Fireworks scenario has done); for instance, sky race could make use of a catapult to launch clonks to different islands and make use of magical balloons.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-23 20:20
I do not think that EVERY scenario should be included into the original pack. Having a lot of similar scenarios will do us no good. I was just thinking that the fact that "there is already a scenario that looks much the same" should NOT keep the developer from implementing his idea. The more scenarios we have (because currently we do not have a lot of them) the easier it would be to chose the best one out of them.

P.S. By the way, the mentioned Kamikadze Fireworks scenario was one of my mostly liked... until I realized that you can launch a boompack while in mid-air. That fact totally ruined all the fun
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-23 22:06

>until I realized that you can launch a boompack while in mid-air. That fact totally ruined all the fun


This could be modified in the boompack's script of checking of clonk. I think this could add some considerable challenge to operating a boompack.

ie: if(clonk->GetProcedure()!="WALK" && clonk->GetProcedure()!="FLIGHT" && clonk->GetAction()!="Tumble") return true;
Something like that.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-02-23 23:54
For me, THAT is the fun part :O
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-24 00:51 Edited 2010-02-24 02:07
I think limiting a Clonk to using only one boompack per jump would be unnecessary. Perhaps the challenge of the boompack race is detracted because you respawn unlimited boompacks, allowing the clonk to fly basically forever (until you fly into a wall). I think however, that only allowing 1 boompack per jump would be too great of a challenge; though it would be possible to complete a race, it could get very tedious.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-24 08:53
About the fun part:
Riding a boompack WAS fun. Jumping off one boompack to start another one is also fun after all. But it offers little challenge. From the other side the interesting part was the moment whan you realize that from the point where you standing it is impossible to reach the higher cliff. First you must find another point from which you can reach your goal easilly. (When you have "unlimited" boompack you just fly up. And when one boompack is not enough - you just start another. Boring :-)

P.S. Also, as I've mentioned here, climbing while holding a boompack seems a bit weird.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-02-24 10:49
Yes, both a boompack race with a faster boompack spawning rate is fun for the sake of it and a race with a slow spawning rate for the challenge of hopping between the sky islands. True. If it comes down to one scenario, we could make a chooser at the start (two big signs, the more players go to one sign after a few seconds, that mode is used).
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-02-24 12:09
Again, I'm a defender of "more scenarios, less options" here. What's wrong with just making two scenarios, even if the landscapes are near identical? Scenarios aren't large; especially if they have dynamic maps.
Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-24 13:21
Agreed.

P.S. The less "options" we have, the more "friendly" the game will be
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Parent - - By ala [de] Date 2010-02-24 13:23
I don't see why, at least if it would be possible to configure a scenario in the lobby and not ingame.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-24 14:23
Imagine yourself a complete newbie who starts OC for the first time. He enters a menu, chooses to play a scenario, choses the type of scenario (we can already see some difficulties for a newbie here :-), reads the description and chooses the scenario he wants to play and then... then begins a complete madness with a list of options he can switch, check/uncheck or even modify. The newbie thinks: "What a heck? What do all of theese options suppose to mean?" an so on.
That was my point about making game unfriendly by implementing prechosen options
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Parent - By ala [de] Date 2010-02-24 14:28
Don't imagine the options as a huge list, rather like a sub menu for configuration. Which is closed in standard and is labeld as advanced or something like that.
Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-02-24 14:33
Well, the newbie clicks on scenarios, lobby opens with a big button "START" and a small tab "configure". No problem, while others can do much configuring if they want.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-24 14:54
In answer to ala's and Asmageddon's posts:
It is not obvious. How do I know that to make boompack usable in mid-air I should search for some tiny configure button?
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Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-02-25 12:01
Well, little, meaningless things like that wouldn't be configurable, as that would produce millions of buttons, lists, checkboxes, etc.
These would be rather a choose game goal, rules, eventually environment, etc.
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Parent - - By ala [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:29

>These would be rather a choose game goal, rules, eventually environment, etc.


Madness?

Actually clonk is overfilled with rules that nobody uses.
Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-02-25 22:54
Madness?
THIS IS SPARTA
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-02-26 00:37
No, this is Patrick!
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-02-24 14:42
Because noone implemented them :P

Don't get me wrong. Scenario options do have their place and they would be nice to have. It's just that in many cases, I think people go to far. They take decisions they should really have made as a scenario designer and push them on to the players.

Also, this.
Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-24 18:53 Edited 2010-02-24 18:59

>Also, this.


Well. The article is basically true, but it forgets that there are habits. I personally don't have to decide which button I take when I leave my PC. I decided that long ago. And I don't want the device to be smarter then me. Okay, it would be fine if it was, but in most cases something is described as smart, it has an nerving unconfigurable behavior, because the designer could not think of or merge all the possibilities.

Now for scenario options, it's basically the same: You will play around with the options a bit, and then you have one or two modes you like. (I can nearly start Forsak IV - DM(~70) - Insta blind. And Forsak offers at least 2^8 different rule combinations.) And even if there are no options IN the scenario, do you want to limit the scenario amount? I think we could reduce the "FooBar - Fastmana - Imbamode - ByBlubb"-problem at least a bit with options...

Another thing: Those options should be 'meaningful'. I don't think it's good to let the player choose which value a flint has, and if it explodes with a rade of 30 or 31 pixels..
Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-24 21:38
umm, wasnt this topic about a game goal? and scenarios with that goal.
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-27 19:36
Haha, this probably should have been branched a long time ago. ;)
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Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-02-25 13:34
I so don't agree on that article. I agree that many choices in life can lead to unhappiness, but to take that to the silly level of powering off the computer? O.o 99% of the people has turned off the computer so many times that they don't even think about it. No choices involved there. The situation when choices are bad are probably more like career choices, indentity choices etc that puts huge pressure on individuals in this society.

I think this weird casual-gaming-trend where everything should be so simple that a brick could play the game has gone too far. It is like developers are encouraging people to sit likr zombies in front of the computer and let the game "entertain" them. Kinda like TV. Where did the intellectual stimulation that games are capable of go? I find players that goes like "OMAGAWD THREE OPTIONS! SCREW THIS GAME, I HAVE TO DO EFFORT TO START IT AND LEARN TO PLaY IT!! SHIT!" really sucks and when developers aim to satisfy this sucky lazy way, they are actually killing potential of sometimes very great game ideas.

Luckily there are a few games out there who doesn't give a **** about this trend, such as dwarf fortress. :) Those of you out there who like that game, just try to imagine that game forced into something "innovative" and "casual" that anyone could start up on the fly and play. It would totally kill the potential of the game.

Games can still be somewhat adapted to be easy to start even if they are complex. By using template settings that everyone can use with a single click. Then you can have an advanced-button that brings up a shitload of crazy options. That would satisfy most people. Those who don't want to think about options don't need to. Just choose a template and you are ready to go. But those who are like me and likes to experiment and tweak settings in funny ways etc etc, can still play around in the advanced menu. This is not hard to implement, and it gives satisfaction for most people.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 13:38
Agreed.

P.S. Maybe a special button for advanced players? "FREAK MODE" :-)
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-25 13:42
0_o Freak mode. What would that do? lolz
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 14:08
Obviously enable the buch of configuration options which are of no use to the newbies.

P.S. It was just a joke, by the way
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-25 16:07
Freak Mode might be a joke, but the idea, "unlocking all of the options with a certain option/ button", actually sounds usefull.
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Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-02-26 13:10
I second that.
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-26 17:22
...like the editor?
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-26 17:34
think of CE developer mode, until it was unlocked all of the really detailed stuff was off limits.  Though with OC something that works a lot better can be implemented i hope.

(i dont know what the current OC editor looks like or how it works)
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-26 20:09

>(i dont know what the current OC editor looks like or how it works)


There isn't one; you just modify the files in your OS' explorer.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-02-26 20:14
Hmm, there might be one...: http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Using_Eclipse_To_Debug

I wonder if it also has more functionality
Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-27 02:52
O_O       I may not be able to do any scripting, but i know that, that would not make a very good editor, (or at least not a simple one).
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-27 06:08

>that would not make a very good editor, (or at least not a simple one).


blender can be horrendously complicated, but it is the best 3D modelling program I have used.

simple!=good
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-27 07:54
Replying like this cause of the small text box.  Simple=good, its nice to be on the same page for once. :)
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-27 19:33 Edited 2010-02-27 19:37
Sorry, but...

>simple!=good


!= ... Returns whether a is unequal to b.

I think game development in no way must be simple, because the simplest ways of creating something are usually the worst, or most limited. However, for the player things must not be so complicated that the player gets frustrated even trying to play the game (especially when the game has no tutorial). For instance, CR was a vast improvement over CE simply because the game had a graphical front-end instead of a file manager that CE used. Also, the controls in Clonk Rage were a vast improvement because they were much simpler to learn and to use.

So yes, a game must be simple to comprehend for the player not overly complicated just for the hell of it, but not so simple that it degrades the quality of the game (cough~spore~cough).
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Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-02-27 20:06
When a game is incredibly complicated it's not a bad thing. Unless player just jumps to it without knowledge of how to play.
If player sits, have got tutorial for very limited amount of things he can do, and gradually discovers new possibilities via missions, etc. and in the end ends with a lot of features it is a good thing - he wont get bored as fast. Sure. Many people are "option A, or option B... OMG!!! WTF!?!?! FU*K THAT!!!!!!", but do you want to create game that many people play, or game that is good? These things do not collide. But usually it's hard to achieve both complexity/novelity and big amount of players at same time.
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Parent - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-27 20:49
sorry, didnt know that was script instead of just talking, but i didnt mean too simple.   Like everything else should be in OC, and editor should be simple but powerful.  (but not tooooooooo simple).
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-23 22:03

>KoFuT


Please don't spell Clonk with K. :/
Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-23 22:04
Sorry
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Parent - - By DarkEagle [de] Date 2010-02-24 20:42 Edited 2010-02-24 20:45
Here you go: I started to work on this scenario. Unfortanely I won't be able to do further work on it for several weeks/months, so everyone who wants to complete it is very welcome.

What is done right now:
Basic stuff is working, goal places a golden wipf which needs to be collected (actually not, but be near it). Once that happens, the goal creates the next golden wipf, and so on. Players get points for collecting a golden wipf. An arrow indicates the position of the wipf.

What needs to be done:
- my scripting may not that handsome, feel free to reform that
- I didn't work out what happens when a player collects a particular number of wipfs
- Amout of loam the scenario should be adjusted (way more I think)
- lorries and huts with objects to use in it (flints, loam, weapons?, jar of winds?, catapult!!)
- decoration, scen looks kinda weird right now
- better graphic for golden wipf and goal (!!!)
- Scoreboard
- support for Teams?
- ...

I hereby license the following file(s) under the ISC license
Attachment: CapturetheWipf.c4s (161k)
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 02:27
I assume this is for CR...? We don't have wipfs scripted yet in OpenClonk. Also, CR script working properly in OpenClonk is very unlikely.
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-25 07:00
This is probably off topic, but correct me if im wrong, but do you mean any of the downloads on CCAN that were designed for CR and other previous titles, wont work in OC?
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 08:18
Read this.
"It was also decided to drop a lot of the "old" game content and drop the backwards compatibility requirement."

This was said on both the main page and in the 'about' section. :p
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-02-25 11:41
Plus, read this before you say: WHYYYYYYY???"
Parent - - By DarkEagle [de] Date 2010-02-25 09:56 Edited 2010-02-25 10:05
No, it is for OC (the one in the first posting was for CR). The wipf in CTW is just a "golden statue that looks like a wipf"; just take a look.
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Parent - By Randrian [de] Date 2010-02-25 10:17
well, theoretically there is already a wipf for oc...
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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Capture the Wipf

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