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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Testing and Feedback to finished Tutorials
- - Date 2010-04-29 16:18
Parent - - By clonkine [de] Date 2010-04-14 07:09
hey, can i test these tutorials, when rdy?
well, nice picture newton, by the way..
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-29 16:18

>hey, can i test these tutorials, when rdy?


Tutorial 3 is fully playable now, and I could use some feedback on the scenario. :)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-04-29 19:17

Feedback to Tutorial 3



Yeah, very well playable! I like it! Here what could be improved in my opinion:

Spawnpoints - The spears should rather just lie around or stick in piles in the ground, those checkpoints with the blinking lights around it will confuse the new player. Also this will be the more natural way in which spears will appear in the game - they just lie around. Also, I think the scenario should abstain from using these spawnpoints alltogether. They just confuse the player and it is all possible without them.

Spears - I don't see a problem with them just sticking around after they have been thrown. Also, in tutorial 2, the clonk learned to handle the backpack and have two inventory slots. I don't think it makes much sense here to once again reduce the standard inventory count. Also the player will face packs of 3 javelins in the real game (to which an appropiate graphic is missing btw - the arrows and bullets have that already. For the javelin, only one javelin is displayed all the time). So that a javelin comes in a pack of three should be explained in the tutorial and be used this way.
There is also a new annoying bug regarding the javelin: The clonk stops when starting to aim (because he turns around?). The Clonk also aims very slowly into the direction of the mouse cursor - thats irritating, he should aim at exactly the angle of the mouse cursor, without delay!

Target - looks and is animated pretty cool! However there are a few issues: The target always jumps up and down a few pixels instead of moving slowly/normally. Also, the balloon doesn't really fit, though: Firstly I think it would look much cooler if it were a model too because this makes some tilting possible to make this floating installation look more interesting. Secondly, the ropes beneath the balloon look odd - why this construction? Why are the ropes that are spanned around this ballon not running together in one knot directly above the target? The movement of the ballon+target could also be a sinus-movement instead of a linear up and down, would look slightly better. This "hay-explosion" also looks quite odd.

Messages - the messages are gone quite fast. I'd prefer if they stayed there while I did not finish the task or require user input to go away (e.g. like in the hazard tutorial). Also, I'd like some more tipps and explanation, also active comments that react to the players behaviour (E.g. repeat that you have to run to throw at a greater distance if he didnt do that or explain that a javelin comes in a pack of three and that one can see how many are left by looking at the count... yaddayadda.).

Bow - Here, you should be faced with the real bow too: No unlimited arrows, some pile of arrows somewhere else if the clonk doesn't have any arrows left + explanation that one arrow pack has 15 arrows(?) and that you need arrow-packs to shoot and that there are different arrow types.

Goals - Why are there two goals? The target goal should be enough.

Scenario - There is no scenario description.
Also, I think it would be better to design the "teacher" this way: Explain the player that the goal of this scenario is to destroy all the targets. Give him a challenge and a tool to master it: Only then introduce the first weapon. The player should "do it by himself" rather then obey instructions. It is not necessary to explain that he has to shoot a balloon to make a ladder appear so he can get on - if his goal is to destroy all the targets, he will do that anyway. What is important is to explain how to use the weapon and to show the player the strengths and the limits of the weapon (that not by explaining it but by making the player experience it by himself:).
If the bow should be used next, don't instruct the player to fetch the bow and only shoot with that. Let the player try to hit the target. When he fails, acknowledge that the target is too far away (or is too hard to hit because it is moving) and then offer him a bow to overcome this problem + explain how to use it.
In all, the target range could be a bit bigger because it says "target practice", not "spear+bow explanation". If he should practice, there should be more than 3 targets for the spear and 5(?) targets for the bow. It should be also more up to the player with which weapon he destroys the (later) targets.
Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-04-29 22:07

> There is also a new annoying bug regarding the javelin: The clonk stops when starting to aim (because he turns around?). The Clonk also aims very slowly into the direction of the mouse cursor - thats irritating, he should aim at exactly the angle of the mouse cursor, without delay!


I guess this is because the Clonk cannot move backwards when aiming the javelin. Can that simply be allowed? And while we are at it: Why can the javelin be thrown that much higher if the clonk is running? A little bit higher is OK but the current amount is ridiculous IMHO.

> Bow - Here, you should be faced with the real bow too: No unlimited arrows, some pile of arrows somewhere else if the clonk doesn't have any arrows left + explanation that one arrow pack has 15 arrows(?) and that you need arrow-packs to shoot and that there are different arrow types.


Maybe there should also be a note that the bow can be used in mid-air.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-04-29 23:50

>Why can the javelin be thrown that much higher if the clonk is running?


Yeah, I reckon thats odd too. If he is running, the launch-speed is just multiplied by a constant. I could change it so that the (full or full*3/2 or something) speed of the clonk is added instead. But it'd probably be harder to hit something then.
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-04-30 09:01
At first, I was surprised by the behavior, too. But I kinda liked it after a while; it turns the javelin into a very skillfull weapon.

If speed were just added, you would use it the same way as the Jar of Winds; i.e. throw directly after jump or movement change. Throwing at your jump apex would actually be bad.
Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-04-30 09:59

> At first, I was surprised by the behavior, too. But I kinda liked it after a while; it turns the javelin into a very skillfull weapon.


I agree that it might make sense gameplay-wise. That's why I don't want it to be removed entirely only it's effect to be reduced somewhat so that the behaviour is not too surprising at first. We could simply try it out and revert the change in case it turns out to be much more fun the current way.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-04-30 10:33
I am not there for the weekend (and thus tomorrow for the meeting, I am not there either) but one of you could try X-ing out the y-factor out of the extra-speed while running of the javelin throw to test the effect it has on gameplay.-
Parent - By Maikel Date 2010-05-03 18:57
I put in some realism, in adding the velocity of the clonk(currently 60%). But I also kept the fact that the clonk converts some of its momenta to the javelin to align with the throwing angle(currently 40%).
Parent - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-04-30 09:57

> If he is running, the launch-speed is just multiplied by a constant. I could change it so that the (full or full*3/2 or something) speed of the clonk is added instead. But it'd probably be harder to hit something then.


It's fully OK that the javelin is accelerated in X direction while running. I'm only asking to reduce Y launch speed a little.
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Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-04-29 23:09

> Spawnpoints - The spears should rather just lie around or stick in piles in the ground, those checkpoints with the blinking lights around it will confuse the new player. Also this will be the more natural way in which spears will appear in the game - they just lie around. Also, I think the scenario should abstain from using these spawnpoints alltogether. They just confuse the player and it is all possible without them.


I actually prefer spawn points, and also made the shovel appear in the tutorial 1 stub that way. Also, in most goo, fast-paced CR melee scenarios I know you just start with the weapons the scenario was designed for; you don't have to pick them up. And if you do, it will probably not just be from the ground but from some kind of spawn point or container.

> Goals - Why are there two goals? The target goal should be enough.


I agree. The goal object should be there to remind the player of his current task. Ideally, the goal (or at least the goal text) should actually change every time the mission objective changes. The tutorial goal object has a public function to change both subtitle (displayed permanently) and description (displayed when you click it).
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-30 00:05 Edited 2010-04-30 03:00

>Spawnpoints


Well, they are helpful if the player accidentally spears/arrows/drowns himself. If we don't use cheat arrows/javelins for the tuts (which I would prefer), that opens up new possibilities of newbies killing themselves.

>Spears...


I also thought it would probably be better to have spears working as they do normally.

>Target ...


About the strange movement, I don't think that's anything I can fix. The hay-target is simply using an attach procedure on the balloon. I would also like the target's balloon to be a mesh, but it conflicts with the rope balloon (they're the same :p). I'm not sure how to make an object fully inherit another object's graphics, but that would fix that. I don't quite  understand you with the balloon's rope construction. Are you referring to the metal ring which the ropes tie onto? I agree with the movement. Not sure how to improve the destruction effect though. D:

>Goals - Why are there two goals? The target goal should be enough.


I made some complicated target creation for the target goal, and the checkpoints rely on the tutorial goal. Of course, everything in the Targets goal can be transferred into the scenario's script. ~Grumble~ Apparently I need the Targets Goal object for storing the variable of how many targets have been broken. I tried to change it to a global scenario variable (which made the game crash), and when I tried to make the functions #appendto the Goal_Tutorial there were horrible counting errors. So I've changed the Targets Goal into an invisible helper object.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-04-30 08:55
IF the goal bothers you, just put your own goal into the scenario?
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-30 16:21
Unless it's bad style or something, the invisible helper object I'm using works fantastic. If I were to use my own goal, it would only be a modified version of the current tutorial goal (and that's basically what it already is with my helper object).
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Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-04-30 10:01

> I'm not sure how to make an object fully inherit another object's graphics, but that would fix that.


What do you mean by "fully" here? You can use another object's graphics via SetGraphics(). Note that the object still needs a dummy graphics for it to be loaded by the engine (can be a 1x1 PNG).
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Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-04-30 10:42
That's something we could change, btw. Creating those 1x1 textures takes up unnecessary space on the GPU.
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-30 16:16

>What do you mean by "fully" here?


Well, *.mesh *.png *.skeleton and *.material . I've never successfully made an object inherit another's mesh graphics properly, so I'm probably doing it wrong. It would still be good to know, but I'll likely be making a different mesh for the target balloon anyways.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-04-30 10:35

>Are you referring to the metal ring which the ropes tie onto?


Yes
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-30 16:13
Ah. The metal ring for the deployable balloon (magic balloon concept) was for the balloon to deflate into. Since the target-balloon is just a render of the deployable balloon... Hrum. I suppose I could make a different balloon altogether.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-04-30 07:15
By the way, what about musket? I suppose it fits current tutorial quite well (after finished playing with different archaic weapons you finally show the player some COOL STUFF =).
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-04-30 16:06
Well, I had originally intended that be saved for the actual game, so the player still has things to discover after the tutorial.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-17 17:24
I played the scenario again, now. Some additional feedback:

The mixture of "go to the next checkpoint" and "shoot the next balloon" is quite confusing because sometimes I have to follow this red 2D arrow next to my clonk and sometimes I have to find a red 3D pointing-arrow to shoot at. It's not really clear what I have to do next. It would be much easier if there would be just one arrow pointing at the next target - if checkpoint or balloon, doesn't matter.

It is quite annoying that I have to run back to the chest all the time to get new spears. Also, it is not mentioned that those respawn in the chest in the first place (or is it? The message box is gone quite quick).

The biggest defect in this scenario and probably in the others too is:
The scenario still feels a lot like a teaching lesson - that's not how one learns to play a game and it is not fun. The player needs to have the freedom to play around with it and not get everything explained: "With A you can do B. Do it now! ... good. With A you can also do C. Do it now... good. Also, note D, try it now. ...". The tutorial scenario still needs to stay a game, a level. The player needs to know what his goal is and he will get the hang for it himself if there is enough space to practice. You made it well to pose the targets as "obstacles" to overcome but there could be more - not each the next target needs to be even harder to hit (/only hittable with a trick). You could for example add an area where several balloons come floating down from the sky and let the player hit them with the spear. Those balloons could have flints in their hay-target etc.
A tutorial should be a normal level, only that the new concepts need to be introduced slowly. But if you look at any jump and run, this is how it is done over the whole game: Level for level, new more difficult stuff is introduced and the player has to master these obstacles. Imagine these gets explained at the start of each level - wouldn't that drive you mad?

Some of my original points are also still valid. Do you want to do something about that?
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-07-18 03:38
Hmm, I have not really done work for Tutorial 3 in a while. I felt there was something wrong with this scenario, and I believe it is due to the linear point-A to point-B arrangement. With linear games such as Mario, these levels are fun because they provide a challenge. However, as you have stated this level feels much like a "teaching lesson", in which there is really no challenge. This makes controlling the clonk through this simple path not surprising or interesting; it feels like work.

I would propose a solution: redesigning the level to something like that of 'Falling Stars Peak' from CR. In this way, there is much more freedom for the player; balloons would come down from the sky, and the player could use javelins or the bow to destroy them. While there would definitely be some planning in order to perfect such a scenario, I believe it holds much more promise than this linear point-a to point-b arrangement that is not even fun.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-04-29 19:33

Feedback to Tutorial 2 (so far)



  • The scenario crashes sometimes when placing environment objects

  • The message box is much too far at the top of the screen

  • The messages go too fast, IMO. There should be a next-button or something. Something that makes the player feel secure that he won't miss anything important.

  • Don't explain the whole situation at the start. Give the player some time to explore and find out by himself that he can't advance (he doesn't need to be trapped, you know. If the goal is to reach the other side, it's enough that he can't advance alone)

  • I gather that this is the first scenario where the clonk actually has two inventory slots. You need to explain these first and let the player get familiar with that (one argument more to not let the clonk start trapped). Before he gets to any chest, before you explain that you can change the crew and all that.

  • You shouldn't include the chests right at scenario start. These should come later, even after the backpack has been explained (which should, too, be explained after the player figured out that he somehow needs it. E.g. there is a barrier and he can't advance without getting his shovel out of his backpack.)

Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-06-03 02:30
Currently, the clonk automatically gets 2 grapplers for going to a certain position. However, this affects both clonks, so you get 4 grapplers in total. Maybe there should just be a chest to supply the grappler(s)?

Also, it could be possible to have some method of getting both clonks across (and requiring both to get across for the goal) by the first clonk using the grappler to swing across, then using a switch on the other side to activate a moving platform across the chasm. It would take some work, but it's very possible.
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Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-06-08 07:17

> by the first clonk using the grappler to swing across, then using a switch on the other side to activate a moving platform across the chasm


I support the idea of adding some diversity.
This scenario is also perfect for some experiments with loam bridges (which were undeservedly forgotten, unfortunately...)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-17 17:39
This "Professor" is a cool idea. It should be used in all scenarios. However there are some issues with it:
+ It is not really clear when the Professor has a new (unread) idea, the icon should change if the message has been read. Also

Also, I am missing more situations where two clonks are needed. (First of all, I'd say the player has only won if both clonks reach the goal). I could think of some more situations with ladders and grapplers where the two clonks could help each other. I think it could be made a little longer.

More stuff:
+ No, my shovel was not in my backpack but in my hand.
+ I get errors when shooting with the cannon. What is this "blackpowder"-stuff and why does it work?? I thought we have powder kegs?
+ When I get out the cave at the beginning, I suddenly have two grapplers in my hand. WTF? Why are they not just lying around there or something? where is my shovel? Why doesn't the professor say anything to that? And why do I need them, actually. I could climb up the wall on the left and then run over the islands.
+ The grappler is not working correctly, but this is not an issue of the scenario.
+ At the end of the scenario, there should be some flag post or something to mark that this is the goal
Parent - By Maikel Date 2010-07-18 11:03
I will redesign the scenario, since I am also not really satisfied with the current layout.

For the flag post and the professor graphics I made two bug reports.
Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Testing and Feedback to finished Tutorials

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