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- - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-10 19:28
I'm all for removing the feature to even have several Clonks at once...
Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-11 22:24
Oh no, not that, you mean something like - in settlement scenarios - 5-6h of work gets ruined because I was not able to buy backup clonk, or to predict the fact that a random stone will fall on my head? No, thanks.
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Parent - - By Gurkenglas [de] Date 2010-07-12 14:00 Edited 2010-07-12 14:04
A feature could be added that if your clonk dies, and you have some money left, you can select a base to respawn for some money. Maybe the costs should grow with the distance to the selected base... in base melees this would be a motivation to build more, and more spreaded bases.
In this way, the risk of forgetting to buy backup clonks would be eliminated.
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Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-12 19:03
Sorry, but I won't comment idea of removing possibility of having more than 1 clonk.
It would mainly consist of:
-Curses. A lot.
-Arguments like:
--ruining spirit of clonk
--ruining settlement scenarios
--ruining melee scenarios
---(impossibility of leaving guard behind)
--even smaller realism
-Random words
-More random words

Argh, or maybe I will comment:
This is stupid. And pointless. What would we benefit from it?
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-07-12 21:20
Please, calm down. Nobody is removing the feaure of having several clonks at once (at least for now). Here we are talking mainly about old group controlling interfaces which recently started to mess things up (since we use slightly different control methods).

As for Peter's idea: believe me, he has some good resons to think that way (Personally I agree with the idea... mostly). Controlling several clonks in (lets say) CR was realy a pain in the neck. As long as you have no free construction/cutting trees/production jobs you can effectively control only 1 clonk (others will just have limited functionaliity or no functionality at all). You will definitely not lead several clonks into battle because you need to perform complicated maneuvers (something AI can not cope with effectively). And how are you going to organize a tough defence when your clonks are just standing around doing nothing.

We have already had a huge discussion about making more complex AI in OC (and we will not start it again here) and it ended right where it started - there is a very little something that can be done concerning several clonk behaviour. But we will definitely return to this discussion later (after the first release or two, when we at last begin to work on settlement and settlement melee scenarios).

P.S. The only (or maybe just the first) idea that comes in mind about using several clonks (which does not involves a lot of AI stuff) is to make guard cannon fire automaticaly when there is a clonk (not controlled by player) operating it.
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Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-18 09:24
I am calm, I just sound like that sometimes.
I dislike idea of having too much clonks as well, imho 2 to 4 clonks is the best option, but not having more than 1 clonk? In races and fast-paced melees - sure.

As for AI I've got an idea, but no idea how hard it would be to implement it.
Basically you do this in steps at beggining of the game, and just update it later when terrain is modified(or will it be unnecesary?):
1) Divide map into sectors(maybe 256x256?)
2) Trace all of the terrain edges(liquids would be ommited for now)
3) Convert traced edges into fragments, optimize their amount of vertices and classify them as:
-Climbing(wall)
-Walking(floor)
-Scaling(ceiling)
4) Place a lot of waypoints on every 'path'
5) Generate paths from as many waypoints to as many waypoints as possible(including points in nearby sectors):
-Automatical connection of points of single path
-Fall path(for jumping from ceiling/wall)
-Jump path(for jumping from floor onto ceiling/wall)
6) Place a large grid of points in terrain, and then:
-Destroy points completly covered in non-diggable terrain
-Move a bit points at edge of non-diggable terrain
-Generate 'Dig' paths through diggable terrain, usually from one 'wall' or 'floor' edge to 'wall' or 'ceiling'(but also from floor to floor, if needed)
7)Destroy unused points, merge points close to each other and cull 'walk', 'climb' and 'scale' waypoints unused in digging in favor of longer single path lines
8)Check for lines/points in two sectors at once(ie.: Point perfectly at edge, line with one point in one sector and one in other) and mark them as 'portals', calculate series of waypoints from each sector entrance to each other(if possible and not blocked)

And then while running game do following:
1)In case of terrain being modified:
-try to reconnect all broken paths(with either jumping, falling and then climbing or something else if needed)
-Remove dig points, which are now on surface(or convert them into 'fall' or other points)
-Calculate new edges, points and paths in modified area(and around)
2)Give each point priority:
-Normally a path fragment gets priority based on time needed to traverse it, but there are exceptions:
-Points close to your base/territory(between your buildings) gets higher priority as it's 'safe'
-Points close to a deadly material(lava,acid,etc.) get 1/2 of priority
-Depending on current AI mode there are + or - points for paths near enemy units and buildings
-Dig paths have lowest priority, both to minimize travel time and prevent too much of waypoints updates...
3) And then use some standard, high performance algorithm for pathfinding

I guess it'd be quite hard to implement, and am not sure how good it would be, but I had this idea floating in my head for a while, so I couldn't not write it in the end :>
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Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-20 21:54
Btw, just so you don't feel ignored after making such a huge post: Yes, something like that could work, it's been waiting for someone to actually try it for a long time.
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-07-20 23:39
I had no clue the difficulty of implementing that would be, but this kind of "NavMesh" generation sounds really cool.

Perhaps we could have NPC clonks and this Navigation-Mesh system in release two? It would fit with the settlement component.
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Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-23 09:06
Yep, settlement was my first thought, but also mission scenarios, where you for example must escape guards chasing you, or steal some object from a mansion. As for now we can't really have any seriously dangerous NPC enemies...
So the current focus would be rather MP melees, races/parkours, etc.
For now it's ok, I guess, but we'll need something 'more' later on.
And well, probably this pathfinding idea is not so original, but I guess it would do the job and allow clonks to navigate even quite complex maps.
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-07-13 00:11
What is the current reason for having more than one clonk, anyways?

Pros:
  • They act as a respawn.

  • They speed up build times.


  • Cons:
  • They are a bad implementation of a respawn

  • Your other clonks stand around waiting to die when you don't control them (PvP, monsters, lightning, drowning)

  • Gameplay is not fun in fights. Why? It is like escort missions, because only one of them ever actually fights. Escort missions suck. You should only have to worry about your character, not an army of respawns waiting to be murdered when you're not looking.

  • AI is never as good as a human player.


  • >--ruining spirit of clonk


    I always found the necessity to control multiple clonks one of the worst aspects of melees. Settlements not so much, but it was still very unnecessary.

    >--ruining settlement scenarios


    How?

    >--ruining melee scenarios


    Good Lord I hate controlling multiple clonks in melees.

    >---(impossibility of leaving guard behind)


    Guards were never implemented well. Any player worth his salt could easily make a guard waste all his ammo and fall into an obvious trap.

    >--even smaller realism


    Now this could actually be a valid argument. I always thought it was a bit strange clonks were building massive settlements and no one ever lived in them. Just an idea, but it could be possible to have NPC clonks on your team which do menial tasks (baking bread, chopping wood and bringing it to the base, eating food, farming wheat, etc.). This would likely require a better pathfinding system (perhaps recording the player's movement that he took to go from point A to B and replicating it?), and possibly some NPC only exploits (ie: clonk teleports back home if he gets stuck). If you've ever played the strategy game "Stronghold", your citizens do a lot of self management in this way.
    Reply
    Parent - - By knight_k [it] Date 2010-07-13 08:57 Edited 2010-07-13 08:59

    > [...] to have NPC clonks on your team which do menial tasks [...] This would likely require a better pathfinding system [...] and possibly some NPC only exploits [...]


    That's actually a nice idea, which might be worth a separate discussion.
    They might be associated with (spawned in) either the home base or the production buildings, perform some of the micromanagement tasks, and e.g. get respawned automatically after some time if killed (so natural disasters or other players might kill them to hurt productivity but without distracting a player too much from his other tasks). It would give clonk settlements a lot more life, somehow I have to think of settlers2.. :)
    Reply
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-14 10:24 Edited 2010-07-14 10:30
    I actually once tried to build something like that, but it's the same problem all over again: Building a good AI for such purposes is really hard. When in doubt I would just try to have the action in question performed automatically, without the need of a Clonk standing by. Like building buildings or vehicles.

    PS: With the possible exceptions of "guard" Clonks you could order (magic?). The many single player scenarios using them have established that they are fun to fight against. Why not allow you to "decorate" your base with them?
    Parent - - By knight_k [it] Date 2010-07-14 13:15

    > Building a good AI for such purposes is really hard


    Yes, that's probably the main problem. It might still be an option to allow some special AI-"cheats", as Ringwaul mentioned, to get around the most difficult situations. Like teleporting if stuck or when no path is available. (if underground, perhaps an animation where the clonks digs a tunnel into the background and disappears there?). But yes, I see also problems with that.

    > When in doubt I would just try to have the action in question performed automatically, without the need of a Clonk standing by


    I can image that having Clonks standing and walking around would just create a nice atmosphere, even if the gameplay-aspects are (almost) the same....
    Reply
    Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-15 09:42
    Really going after the Settlers athmosphere, aren't we? For me, it would be kind of a gamble in terms of gameplay mechanics. I'm not sure it wouldn't somehow backfire.
    Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-18 09:26
    I like idea of having village clonks walking around your village, at least in settlement or in particular melees.
    Reply
    Parent - By Maddin Date 2010-07-18 17:30
    I like that idea a lot.

    It also always bugged me that clonks did not have an AI that could defend themself. Or do anything at all when not selected.
    Parent - - By Travis Date 2010-07-13 22:57 Edited 2010-07-13 23:04
    A lorry full of gold is almost too heavy for one Clonk and that's the clonkish realism I like.

    >perhaps recording the player's movement that he took to go from point A to B and replicating it?


    Yeah, that's a beginning.
    Parent - - By Carli [de] Date 2010-07-13 23:15
    "clonkish" is not defined. So it's no argument.
    Parent - By Travis Date 2010-07-14 15:34
    I used it more like an adjective here, maybe "...and that's the kind of realism I like to have in Clonk".
    Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-18 09:31
    Well, I always walked with few clonks to speed up construction, and as for my arguments:

    >--ruining spirit of clonk


    You always had multiple clonks in clonk, so it would be quite extreme change, and there are already things done and/or planned that change the game a lot, I think we shouldn't really go that far, so imho doing things like this, which are not 100% sure to do good is not a good idea

    >--ruining settlement scenarios


    Single-clonk building, hauling, no guards possible, no research/production/etc in background and so on...

    >--ruining melee scenarios


    That would only be for particular scenarios, in general it's not nice to go seeking for enemy base and while after get an alert that your base is under attack and being unable to protect it...
    Reply
    Parent - By Maddin Date 2010-07-18 17:34
    Again, this is a completely new clonk (Well, that was at least the initial thought and seems to be kept up so far); the people are doing this to get away from the 4 games old fashion.
    Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-14 10:25
    You know, with reactions like this I'm actually getting more convinced that I might be going into the right direction :P
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-14 10:20
    Like I've already mentioned in another thread: The far cleaner solution is to have a relaunch facility. I mean, this first reaction speaks volumes: We are reserving 3 keys for multi-Clonk-controls, and people are using it for what? Having a Clonk sitting around for the case they might die? You don't even need those keys in this case. Heaps of complexity (especially in the "AI" department) could be avoided by just implementing the more straightforward solution.
    Parent - - By Nachtschatten Date 2010-07-18 18:05

    > Having a Clonk sitting around for the case they might die?


    No, dying is not the only situation where you need backup. As it happens from time to time, the Clonk you primarily work with gets trapped somehow and can't get out on its own (e.g. it might have fallen down a cliff, or the cave it was in just collapsed and was flooded with water). What do you propose as a solution? A suicide button?
    Reply
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-18 18:15
    The "rescue team" scenario? I actually have pretty lively memories of my first time trying that. It ended with all "rescue" Clonks in said hole as well.

    In case suicide is a cheap "pay 20 gold and respawn at next base" - wouldn't that actually be the more fun solution? When your other Clonk had equipment, you still get to rescue that, after all - so nothing substantial is lost. Just wondering :)
    Parent - - By Nachtschatten Date 2010-07-20 23:37
    Yeah, the beloved rescue team stories. :)

    I'm somewhat torn about that. Having to (manually) rescue your clonk is good for the following reasons: It 'punishes' you for being sloppy (too careless while walking around cliffs, not building your tunnels flood-proof, etc), and it makes a clonk's life feel 'valuable'. On the other hand, rescue missions sometimes become tedious. Your productivity is down to zero while you rescue your clonk and it usually takes some time and effort. Additionally, the rescue missions are pretty unsafe as well (as you said). So, losing your rescue clonk, too, and then the next one, and so on, isn't too much fun either. Altogether, rescue missions can be a funny gameplay element, but saving one clonk by throwing more clonks at the situation doesn't feel entirely right either.

    > "pay 20 gold and respawn at next base" ... When your other Clonk had equipment, you still get to rescue that


    Hmm. It sounds like it's worth trying. I have two throughts about that: First, just paying some gold seems a little 'cheaty' to me, to be honest. This way, something bad happening to your clonk suddenly becomes a complete non-issue: Just restart at your base, problem solved. Second, on the other hand, the problem is moved from 'clonk lost' to 'equipment lost', so the arguments above apply again, and 'equipment rescue missions' might become tedious. This could balance one another well or not.
    Reply
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-24 15:31 Edited 2010-07-24 15:35
    As I said, you might want to rescue his equipment, so the "punishment" character is still there. The main difference is that you don't have one Clonk more in your Clonk "rotation" until you have rescued him. That's especially significant if you decide that you don't want to go get him: You are effectively punished for the whole round.

    And I don't know about "cheaty". It's already just about playing gold, isn't it? My next idea would actually have been to give you a timed respawn in case you don't want to spend the gold (DotA-style).
    Parent - Date 2010-07-24 15:55
    Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-14 11:56
    You need several clonks not only for backup. There are two factors that count:

    1. The position of the clonk. One might be building a forward base somewhere on a sky island, the other one is shooting the construction materials up to his position with a cannon. Or, one clonk is in the base to defend it against enemies (and open the gates for friendly clonks), the other one is looting valuables on a former battlefield. Etc. pp. There are many situations where more than one clonk come in handy because of location.
    2. What the clonk is carrying is defining what he is able to do, what he is: Whether he is a Bowman-Clonk, a Fighter-Clonk, a Miner-Clonk, a Construction-Clonk or an Explorer-Clonk. (Axe, shovel, hammer are now tools.) No Clonk can carry all these tools at once, but you need different tools (at different positions) for different situations quite quick. Another clonk will come in handy there. For easy recognition you can see with what the clonk is equipped just by looking at the pictures.
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-15 09:48
    Well, we are going for multi-player, aren't we? Having the best strategies require more than one player isn't a terrible idea.

    Besides, in most typical single-player scenarios, we actually only need the Builder-Clonk. And wasn't there something about a backpack that you could store tools in to "transform" your Clonk when need arises?
    Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-18 15:04
    There is a difference between "best strategy" and required strategy. Also, weren't you for allowing only one item per clonk?
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-18 18:22
    I am against having "object selection" as a part of the main controls. One object primary (like stone, bow or construction kit), one object secondary (like showel or shield). Backpack or lorry for when you need to change. I haven't really been very active in this discussion, but I think that's pretty close to what was agreed upon, isn't?
    Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-18 18:33
    Technically, the clonk can now carry 7(!) items but only the first two are shown in the HUD and only into the first two items are automatically collected.
    Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-07-19 17:49
    Yeah.. there should be something like an icon of a backpack and 'q' written under it... it's hard to figure out at first how to open inventory(even to figure that it exists...).
    Reply
    Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-07-14 16:30
    Hm, I'm not so sure... the challenge of controlling more than one clonk at the same time in both melees and settlement scenarios was and still is one of the fun parts in CR to me. On the other hand the most important feature which made this feasible is currently not available in OC anyway, namely mouse control. I'd still be in favor of keeping this possibility in one way or another. Maybe we should decide first how settlement is supposed to work before discussing this further.
    Reply
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-18 14:16

    > Maybe we should decide first how settlement is supposed to work before discussing this further.


    Well, no. It's the other way round. My personal design might look very different if I had to accommodate the player controlling multiple Clonks in there. Because if we decide that we want to keep it for whatever reason, I would be thinking about how we can make it a central design decision, not just something lying around as a workaround for, say, missing relaunches. Try to make it the exception to control only one Clonk at the time. Think more "Lemmings".

    I'm essentially trying to establish the ground rules here. First the requirements, then the design.
    Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-18 15:03
    I haven't heard any convincing arguments why only one clonk should be allowed for one player yet. But if you say that this decision would influence the design of the settlement very much, then you certainly got something in mind  how else it should look like. Would you share this with us? Perhaps this will sound promising.
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-18 18:37 Edited 2010-07-18 18:41
    Isn't "we save 3 seldom-used keys, and quite a lot of overhead interface space" argument enough? 99% of current Clonk is already one-clonk-one-player - just have a look at the master server games. This feature just isn't worth it.

    How my design would look different, I can't say directly. But there are things where "and what about when there are 2 Clonks?" is just distracting, and takes away of the quality of other solutions.

    For example when thinking about relaunches: How about having the last base you visit become your relaunch base automatically? Well, what if you had 2 Clonks? Would the "last" base be shared between them? Or each one have a separate relaunch point? Both would be horribly confusing. This kind of thing I would call "design smell" - it feels to me like this feature is a considerable net-loss for us.
    Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-07-18 18:55 Edited 2010-07-18 19:06

    >Isn't "we save 3 seldom-used keys, and quite a lot of overhead interface space" argument enough?


    No it isn't. Currently we use 1 key, IIRC: "Next crew member". Though, probably most players will click in the hud anyway.

    >For example when thinking about relaunches


    True, the respawn idea is not too compatible with having more than one clonk. Probably because you suggested that feature to replace having several clonks.

    Currently, to go against the problem of clonks in a trap, the last clonk is dead and one is eliminated etc. the possibility to always buy another clonk in the base from the HUD could be implemented - regardless if there is one clonk left on your team or not. (e.g. a button that is shown left or right of the clonks-display on the top which shows a clonk and coins.) This clonk will respawn in the building that has been marked as the players base.

    Edit:
    Don't get me wrong. I don't want to actively argue against limiting the maximum number of clonks of a player to one either in standard scenarios or even in the engine. It's just like I said: I don't see any convincing arguments yet that clearly speak for limiting the player and the scenario developer in such a strong way to go through the hassle of implementing all this and no other possible solution. The problems you posed as the definite reasons for limiting the number of clonks to one do not have to be solved like this, there are other solutions possible. This discussion started in the wrong way, first there was the suggestion to limit the number of clonks to one and then began the search for reasons why it would be better.
    Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-20 22:08

    > Though, probably most players will click in the hud anyway.


    Ugh, I certainly don't hope so.

    > I don't see any convincing arguments yet that clearly speak for limiting the player and the scenario developer in such a strong way


    How exactly should I limit scenario authors? They could essentially reimplement everything we do anyway :)

    I'm not trying to reach some sort of technical decision - I mean, why should we remove a feature that's just lying around? - I just want to get people thinking. So scenario builders aren't going to just put multiple Clonks into their scenarios just because they haven't thought about other possibilities. And object package authors don't put too much thinking into implementing a complicated solution, knowing that it might not even be needed.
    Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-07-21 12:05

    >How exactly should I limit scenario authors? They could essentially reimplement everything we do anyway :)


    Not at all.
    Parent - By Atomclonk [de] Date 2010-07-19 21:42
    I was never attached to the necessarity of having multiple clonks. Go on.
    Reply
    Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2010-07-23 17:36
    Is Seven Keys playable with just one Clonk?!
    Reply
    Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-07-23 17:42
    Yes. But even if it weren't, you can buy multiple Clonks.
    Parent - By Isilkor Date 2010-07-23 21:11
    I thought the point of this proposal was that you couldn't.
    Reply
    Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-24 15:41
    Yeah, busted. My own scenarios were often tailored for the player controlling two or three Clonks. Just take the arrow: You really need at least one or two Clonks working together.

    But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind much either to declare Seven Keys a pure multiplayer scenario. Or rework the arrow so it's easier to control with fewer Clonks. Or do a completely different key that becomes interesting precisely because there are less Clonks (it would make the no-placement-near-Clonks-rule more feasible again, for example).
    Parent - - By Günther [de] Date 2010-07-24 16:00
    I think the conclusion is that we should remove the option of controlling multiple Clonks at the same time, but retain the possibility of each player having multiple Clonks to switch between. It might be nice to fix the multiple simultaneous Clonk behaviour, but the gains are not worth the work. But multiple Clonks per player open up a significant amount of gameplay possibilities at the cost of one key binding. Even if it's just for finishing a settlement scenario designed for three players with just two players after the third player drops out.

    I'll simplify the engine implementation accordingly.
    Reply
    Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2010-07-24 17:59

    > I'll simplify the engine implementation accordingly.


    What exactly is there to simplify?

    Again, controlling multiple clonks at the same time is one of the things I liked very much in previous Clonk titles and even though I acknowledge that it might be even more complicated with our current control concept I'd like to keep the possibility for this (like for example if we get a really smart pathfinder one day it might be possible to rely on the AI much more for common tasks than we can in CR).
    Reply
    Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2010-07-24 21:22
    Well, we could still implement that. As discussed, we just need some sort of second-class automatic Clonk (or some other yet-to-be-named beast) that can follow the Clonk around and understands basic directions. Just like the knights could be put into "defend" mode or whatever.

    I feel like this is the better solution on many fronts.
    Parent - - By Günther [de] Date 2010-07-25 12:47

    > What exactly is there to simplify?


    The code one would need to read to solve bug #98 :-)

    At the moment, we have two concepts: "which Clonk has the cursor" and "which Clonks are selected", and they interact in subtle ways. Dropping the second would make the engine interface a lot easier to understand. For example, when you switch through your Clonks, which one is GetCursor(,0)? The one which would be the only selected one after you pressed a movement key, or the one which would lead the selected crew if you pressed the cursor toggle key and then a movement key?

    > I'd like to keep the possibility for this (like for example if we get a really smart pathfinder one day it might be possible to rely on the AI much more for common tasks than we can in CR).


    Reimplementing the necessary support in the engine or script would be a lot less work than a really smart pathfinder, so when somebody does build one I think we'll find someone to implement simultaneous Clonk control again. Maybe we'll even get a better interface than C4 had :-)
    Reply
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