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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Tutorial 1 (Clonk Control) : Feedback
- - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-08-11 00:40
Please reply here with what you think of the scenario (ie: what should be changed/improved, etc.).
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-08-11 11:11
I didn't get through because the flints didn't ignite themselves, but that's not your fault.

So, points of criticism:
-The Scenario lacks a clear direction, I never saw anything like: "Go east, my scholar."
-cine could flash whenever there is something new
-The use of right and left clicks could be explained a little better for the chest and the backpack, and you don't mention how to close them.

Btw, I like the principle that you have to get the help yourself, adventurous players will be allowed to find out themselves.
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-08-11 18:52

>I never saw anything like: "Go east, my scholar."


Hmm, I had something like this; I removed it but I forgot to reimplement it when I got the chance. I'll change that next chance I get.

>cine could flash whenever there is something new


I think Maikel will do this when the 3D graphics are implemented.

>The use of right and left clicks could be explained a little better for the chest and the backpack, and you don't mention how to close them.


I noticed while trying to explain the control for object containers it felt like I was writing a book. Even now the instructions are quite long; I figured I would relay the necessary concepts and let the players discover the much easier concepts themselves (it tooks me a matter of seconds to see how to close a ring-menu after the center close button was implemented).
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Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-08-11 20:26

>cine could flash whenever there is something new


Hey, do you mean GUI disappearing, cool black borders at top and bottom appearing and cutscene starting?
Would be cool :>
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Parent - Date 2010-08-13 12:32
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-08-16 13:23
I did not have someone who does not know clonk sit in front of it yet. My feedback so far:

Yes, great! The tutorial guide offers to explain everything, but doesn't give order nor HAS TO explain everything, it's up to the player. That's cool. One thing about the tutorial guide, perhaps Maikel (or you) will need to offer an interface for that first: Right now, you have to click the message away every time after you read it. It should disappear as soon as the explained task has been done successfully.
Some more feedback about the tutorial:
+ Some typos and clumsy/compilcated formulations (f.e. I remember reading "primary slot" and "secondary slot", better explain that the two slots to the lower left shows whats in your left/right hand. Also, somewhere "shown in the HUD" or something. Just say "shown on the lower edge of the screen" because the HUD may be everywhere. Especially for references to elements in the HUD, the pointing-arrow could be used)
+ The scenario lacks a clear description of what the goal of the scenario is ("Reach the flag on the right") at the start of the round
+ Every aspect is explained once but also only done ~once (except perhaps movement with WASD). Why not let the clonk climb, jump, hangle and dig over some more stuff / some longer parkour? As soon as one aspect has been explained, you can use it in the scenario. For example I'd like to see some thicker rock-wall (or several of these) at some point, where the clonk has to do the typical work of going back, digging out the flints (and perhaps loam) to slowly mine himself through that. That would also let him train the usage of the backpack (Tutorial guide: "Hint: With Q, you can open up your backpack in which you can store collected items. [Insert explanation how to use it here]"). So, I like Svens original plan to have the first tutorial as some kind of easy-peasy parkour.
Parent - - By Randrian [de] Date 2010-08-16 13:55
Well not really related to the tutorials. But I noticed it in the tutorials. Is there a way to but things directly for the chest into the backpack? Cause it is always a bit annoying when you want to take every flint out of a chest hand have to open the chest menu, pick two items, close it, open the backpack, put the things into it and iterate this till your backpack is full. Perhaps using shift+click in the chestmenu to put things form the chest to the backpack? And perhaps shift+rightclick to store a backpack item in the chest.
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-08-16 15:01
No. That the chest has a ringmenu and not a proper contents menu is only provisionary anyway. As soon as we get to the development on the second milestone which incorporates buildings, production lines etc. and thus needs a proper contents management, we'll need and we'll implement a contents-menu-system. (Consisting of non-modal menus, so it would look like: chest-menu next to clonk-menu, dnd or click to exchange)

The ring menu will then probably only be used for the backpack access and for magic/other small selection menus.
Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-08-16 19:50
I remember when some time ago there were sentences like "lololololol" and "omg u got a shovel!!!!!1111"... Who exactly pushed that and why? ^^'
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-08-17 23:48
For the lulz. Do not question the genius of the engine developers!

But seriously, it was just placeholder stuff (probably for testing how long a message would stay on screen).
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Parent - By Sven2 [ca] Date 2010-08-19 01:39
As others said; I just created framework objects.

The work didn't lie in that message, but in the fact that you could actually see a framed message with a portrait again. That was broken in OC.
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-08-29 14:04
Some feedback on tutorial 1:

* The underwater shovel is really hard to see. Maybe let it glow a bit?
* When you have passed a section that was explained in a message, that message should disappear (either just be gone or replaced by another). E.g., the message telling you how to scale still stays there when you have reached the hangling pit
* The mountain tops can be reached if you go back from the flint section to get a piece of loam and build up right before the goal. I think that's the perfect place for some fun stuff :)
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-08-29 23:13

>The underwater shovel is really hard to see. Maybe let it glow a bit?


The tutorial guide does tell the player to look in the water if he/she hasn't collected the shovel. With this in mind, do you think I should add some mild glowing effect to it?
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-08-30 00:46

>* The mountain tops can be reached if you go back from the flint section to get a piece of loam and build up right before the goal. I think that's the perfect place for some fun stuff :)


Fun stuff is your job :P
Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-08-30 00:55
We discussed it in IRC; Ringwaul will put his pet project there :)
Parent - - By clonkine [de] Date 2010-09-02 13:43
first some general things for all tuts:
I would suggest to give all the tuts the same structure. same as in clonk rage. i would orientate on tut1! second one could be about having more clonks (as it is already, but not as a riddle...) and showing how you really need both of your clonks. the enterhaken thing is nice ; and so on...

so, clonkines feedback to tut1:

this is the way of tut i want to see! strict guide from beginning to the end. but i missed the part when prof. clonkine tells us to walk right through the tunnel ;) (ok, i now for YOU all it's the only way, but perhaps not for new ones?

oh just one thing: digging isn't really explained. it's said how you activate your items and so on, but i missed the special digging instruction.
same with throwing flints!

the other things are nice. easy and doable (does that word exist?)

but it could be longer. show more things. like: changing more items from backpack to chest and the other way round (i think i said it in tut 2), digging a longer way from A to B, and dig out some items, show what happens when they fall on the clonk. building a longer loam bridge, perhaps with ups and downs to learn how to use the mouse.

just: show more basical clonk things that YOU all know, but new players don't!

but: all in all, nice tut1!
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-09-02 14:21 Edited 2010-09-02 14:25

> it's said how you activate your items and so on, but i missed the special digging instruction


There should be a message which tells you that you can get a description (how to use) of objects by rightclicking on the inventory icon. Doesn't that show up yet or was it somehow unclear to you what prof. clonkine meant by that?
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-09-02 15:31
I didn't know that either. Maybe it was in a message and I just forgot about it, because it wasn't relevant at the time.

I think the tutorial should give you enough hints to fulfill the task even if you didn't pay attention to previous messages. Maybe, for the more complicated tasks, Prof. clonkine can cycle through several messages as you click her several times? Maybe even cycle through those messages when you don't progress for a longer time - up to the point where she literally tells you to stop in front of the chest and open it with <Space>. I'm not sure how much work it would be (it would involve the script keeping track of current progress in much smaller steps), but if players fail at the tutorial, then that's a real show-stopper.
Parent - By clonkine [de] Date 2010-09-02 16:22
i forgot it, too! because it is in one of the first messages and there are some more and my brain is old...;)
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Parent - - By clonkine [de] Date 2010-09-02 16:21
ok i see!
*test*
ok you're absolutely right! it does work with rightclicking. just forgot it or i dont know...what ever.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-09-02 17:49
Well, perhaps it is not explained until tutorial 2 (because Maikel made tutorial 2 and he requested that feature). Im not sure, thats why I asked. In any case, Ringwaul should check whether this is the case.
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-09-02 18:50
Yes, that isn't explained until Tut2. I shall add it to what the prof says then.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-09-02 19:56
That's nice and all, but unless players can't get forward without using the feature, I don't think you can assume they know about it.

People are lazy. They will probably ignore all messages unless they really need them, i.e. when they're stuck.
Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-09-02 21:23
I plan to add a tip to right click on the shovel in the message of which explains tools.
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Parent - By Gurkenglas [de] Date 2010-09-02 21:38
You could show a clonk doing what you have to do, the mouse cross of his "player", and a keyboard with, if pressed, highlighted buttons. Even 6-years-old would get that i think :D
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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Tutorial 1 (Clonk Control) : Feedback

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