![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
Just to add my two cents: I am more and more disliking the idea of having (classic) vehicles at all. Most of them are clumsy, get stuck in normal terrain and most can be replaced with an item of some sort. Specifically the fact that the movement on terrain is so difficult with them that they are almost rendered useless when compared to the big improvements on the agility of the clonk in OC.
Yeah, the only really worthwhile vehicles were the balloon and blimp. Having to deal with the clumsiness to reach otherwise-impossible-to-reach regions could provide a nice challenge when consumed in small doses.That said, there's no inherent reason vehicles have to be clumsy. Remember Horus' tank?
![[gb]](/mwf/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Okay, the lorry was also somewhat useful. It mainly was a distraction from building the production buildings at the bottom of the elevator-shaft, though.Heh, that gives me the idea of requiring fuel-using buildings to be outside, like windmills.
What about requiring bases to be outside? We wouldn't have to provide a big explanation, but it doesn't really make sense that you can just sell Gold from somewhere in the middle of a mountain.
Buying and selling could require a balloon connection like in Clonk 3. If buying and selling works with magic instant transportation, it does make sense that that would work somewhere in the middle of a mountain.
I like the idea that somebody is coming to bring your stuff, but remembering my escapades with the ClonkMars lander, I would not recommend that.
Well, the philosophical point here is that whatever we do - it's still magic by definition, as we can never provide the actual thing. All we can do is provide something which conforms to as many player expectation as possible. And "it should not be possible to sell inside a mountain" is such an expectation - even if we can't provide a good explanation for the underlying "... because normally there would have to be someone to bring it there".
The reasoning might be a bit more subtle, but I think I like the strategical consequences as well.
The reasoning might be a bit more subtle, but I think I like the strategical consequences as well.
>which conforms to as many player expectation as possible. And "it should not be possible to sell inside a mountain" is such an expectation
Oh, that's only a definition. I am pretty sure as many players would "expect" that you can build every building everywhere and that you can sell out of every base building ;)
But both player types would have to accept both, so we should take the one that is more beneficial to the game
>but it doesn't really make sense that you can just sell Gold from somewhere in the middle of a mountain.
Sense? It does not make sense that you can sell stuff in some far, far away land at all. :)
Don't forget that the plan was to only be able to sell items for half the price. Maybe some real cool trader system (where the goods are transported via some blimp - and sold for a higher value) could solve that
![[ca]](/mwf/flags/ca.png "Canada")
One of the things I liked about CR was how refreshing it was to have a trade system not based on "I'll give you 50% of the actual value for all your goods, but my goods are 200% priced. Ha ha."Made me want to ring the throats of those swindling merchants. Which I did whenever possible.
Yeah, the only really worthwhile vehicles were the balloon and blimp.
What about the lorry
What about a blimp + lorry = blorry.
You could throw things into it and then you could take a rope & pull it. It's always a bit behing you and goes directly up when you do but only down when it has to. This should avoid most of the obstacles but it does not completly free you from flattening the land. I imagigine this would be cool.
The rope should take both inventory slots so can't eg pull und use the shield in the same time. But scaling shoul be possible.
It also fits into the Steampunky style.
What about the lorry
What about a blimp + lorry = blorry.
You could throw things into it and then you could take a rope & pull it. It's always a bit behing you and goes directly up when you do but only down when it has to. This should avoid most of the obstacles but it does not completly free you from flattening the land. I imagigine this would be cool.
The rope should take both inventory slots so can't eg pull und use the shield in the same time. But scaling shoul be possible.
It also fits into the Steampunky style.
![[ua]](/mwf/flags/ua.png "Ukraine")
Hey, come on!In CR (with a little bit of skill) you could take a lorry with you into a blimp voyage.
I do not see why we should introduce some hybrid mechanisms like this one
I suppose the idea is that the 'blorry' hovers, not flies. That way it can traverse ridiculously jagged terrain; as long as the clonk can.
Anyway... if its introduction means the death of a 'classical' lorry, I'm still strongly against it.Though... no objections oterwise
I don't think it should/could replace the classic lorry. While the 'classic' lorry is rather simple to navigate through tunnels, a 'blorry' would would be easy to navigate over rough, overground terrain. And since there would be a balloon holding it aloft, it wouldn't be able to fit through most mine-shafts.
> I don't think it should/could replace the classic lorry.
Neither do I. Actually, I think this balloon should be an add-on to the classic lorry, and detachable if needed. That way, I can push my lorry around in my carefully constructed, vehicle-friendly shafts, and take the very same lorry back to my homebase across jagged terrain, just by attaching the balloon. (Also, it fits nice with the combinable parts idea.)
> That said, there's no inherent reason vehicles have to be clumsy.
Thought a bit about it. Some more or less easy thing we might do:
* Allow vehicles to move downwards as well as upwards when getting pushed against solid pixels. That would fix getting stuck on diagonal ceilings.
* Automatically move the vehicle *against* the direction of pushing when it allows greater progress. Could simply beam up to 5 pixels.
* Fix that certain vehicles can get stuck with pixels in the middle. Actually, it might be worthwhile to rethink the vertex code so it only considers "outside" pixels.
* More intelligent rotation - as you said, Horus tank comes to mind.
But I would hate to lose this completely. I feel like navigating vehicles around the landscape was enough challenge in the positive sense to make it worthwhile.
![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
I think having the option of building a boat would benifit. The cool thing about the other clonks was how they all adapted to their environment and found ways to live in even the most extreme places. Sharks and pirannhas added a certain grim-strategy to the occasional seafaring clonk.
> If it seems like I'm preaching my idea a little to much, i am sorry :D
I think this is not the problem with your idea. The problem is, as PeterW pointed out, that it still (and even more now) sounds like a big uncertain cloud of "put in a lot of cool stuff!". This sounds too much like those ambitious descriptions of clonk projects from 14 year olds on Clonk Forge whose only vision of their projects seems to be "to make it real huge, with this and that and stuff". They are as bad as the "I like game X. I want to implement X in clonk" projects. Of course, (almost) none of them ever get released.
The only reason that my idea's all sound really vague and childish is because I am as educated as a 14 year old on how creating games work. I am just trying to describe what I see in my mind, and it isn't too easy to do so. I will try once more to put the idea into a couple of sentences.
Clonk's direction in my opinion, Is to go nowhere. If you look on the clonk wiki, this is how they describe the genre. "The game features a mix of the action, real-time strategy and platform game genres." All i am saying, is to expand on that one-of-a-kind genre. Not needing to change the platforming from what it is now, pumping up the strategy portion of the game by adding clonks that are specialized in combat, and others that are specialized in the gathering of resources could be a great leap for the game.
That is a simplified and better understandable version of what i was trying to say.
Oh, and for the vehicles, I have seen some cool physics based vehicles in platformer games. They usually make the wheels into a jello like substance so they don't seem like they are having trouble going over the bumps, the driving seems very fluent that way. Or you could make the grappling hook implemented with the vehicles as well. If they get stuck, they could simply grappling hook their way on something, Just a thought.
*EDIT*
The animal transportation idea would be more understable. It makes more sense that an animal can get around in their own conditions much easier than a machine can. Could be cool if one of them was a frog and he could use his tongue to latch on to walls :P
*REPLY TO ALA*
I definitely went to far on that, was speaking my mind. As a strategy player, i would make the Defence of the game something like the castle defence games. Assign a clonk to be a sentry wizard, or assign a clonk to control one of those giant crossbows. One scenario that i am imagining right now would have the defence having a sentry tower built up, so you go with your digging machine or whatever else that can dig fast and fluent to get underneath the tower and destroy it by putting dynamite underneath the tower and setting it off to make it collapse. Now, the defence knows that the enemy will try to dig underneath their next sentry tower so they dig a hole deliberately underneath it, leaving a tiny bit of land for the tower to go on, and place mines in the tunnel so that when the enemy tries doing the same thing again, they will die, or see the mines and walk away.
That is the initial idea that i had going in my head. Once again, completely improvised, probably like one of those child like ideas, but i have no other ideas on how to describe what i would like the game to look like.
Clonk's direction in my opinion, Is to go nowhere. If you look on the clonk wiki, this is how they describe the genre. "The game features a mix of the action, real-time strategy and platform game genres." All i am saying, is to expand on that one-of-a-kind genre. Not needing to change the platforming from what it is now, pumping up the strategy portion of the game by adding clonks that are specialized in combat, and others that are specialized in the gathering of resources could be a great leap for the game.
That is a simplified and better understandable version of what i was trying to say.
Oh, and for the vehicles, I have seen some cool physics based vehicles in platformer games. They usually make the wheels into a jello like substance so they don't seem like they are having trouble going over the bumps, the driving seems very fluent that way. Or you could make the grappling hook implemented with the vehicles as well. If they get stuck, they could simply grappling hook their way on something, Just a thought.
*EDIT*
The animal transportation idea would be more understable. It makes more sense that an animal can get around in their own conditions much easier than a machine can. Could be cool if one of them was a frog and he could use his tongue to latch on to walls :P
*REPLY TO ALA*
I definitely went to far on that, was speaking my mind. As a strategy player, i would make the Defence of the game something like the castle defence games. Assign a clonk to be a sentry wizard, or assign a clonk to control one of those giant crossbows. One scenario that i am imagining right now would have the defence having a sentry tower built up, so you go with your digging machine or whatever else that can dig fast and fluent to get underneath the tower and destroy it by putting dynamite underneath the tower and setting it off to make it collapse. Now, the defence knows that the enemy will try to dig underneath their next sentry tower so they dig a hole deliberately underneath it, leaving a tiny bit of land for the tower to go on, and place mines in the tunnel so that when the enemy tries doing the same thing again, they will die, or see the mines and walk away.
That is the initial idea that i had going in my head. Once again, completely improvised, probably like one of those child like ideas, but i have no other ideas on how to describe what i would like the game to look like.
>or assign a clonk to control one of those giant crossbows
Another idea comes to my mind which could improve movement of vehicles: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/pc/str/battlerealms/b_790screen013.jpg
Look at the strategy unit in the right corner. He's carrying a crossbow!
Oh wow, that is exactly the crossbow i was thinking, but more platformer like.
When im thinking the vehicles over again, I'm thinking a vehicle that moves with sort of leg-like wheels. Not really sure how to describe the leg like wheels, but i would describe it like a windmill for the wheels, but with little points on the end like a (don't flame me for saying this) Swastica. So the car can pull itself over gaps easier. I made a car like this in littlebigplanet, and it works beautifully.
When im thinking the vehicles over again, I'm thinking a vehicle that moves with sort of leg-like wheels. Not really sure how to describe the leg like wheels, but i would describe it like a windmill for the wheels, but with little points on the end like a (don't flame me for saying this) Swastica. So the car can pull itself over gaps easier. I made a car like this in littlebigplanet, and it works beautifully.
Nah I thought like this: Crossbow / Catapult from CR would be stationary vehicles. Which can be pushed and pulled around, but sure are lost in clonks complex landscape structure. Now: Two Clonks will arrive, lift the vehicle up and place it on their back (with a rope), and can be controlled like normal - but slower, even climbing etc.. perhaps not swimming - a moat would protect against rams (not on wheels, with 4 clonks below it) this way.
Also, there is the possibility that certain vehicles are just too heavy to lift them up (ex. full packed lorry) - this way PeterW/Sven2 wouldn't loose the challenge of smoothing up the level to transport things in settlement games.
Legs <3
Ah the new behaviour which got discussed above could still be implented, for horses and trains for example.
Also, there is the possibility that certain vehicles are just too heavy to lift them up (ex. full packed lorry) - this way PeterW/Sven2 wouldn't loose the challenge of smoothing up the level to transport things in settlement games.
>Leg like wheels
Legs <3
Ah the new behaviour which got discussed above could still be implented, for horses and trains for example.
So you then grant this crossbow-clonk more agility like, say, jumping? Can't really picture that.
Throwing in another idea: How about implementing some rope crazyness, like having the grappling hook grab vehicles in order to pull them over rough terrain?
Throwing in another idea: How about implementing some rope crazyness, like having the grappling hook grab vehicles in order to pull them over rough terrain?
We could also change the pushing physics a little, i.e. allow jumping and grabbing at specific vertices. Such changes could allow players to carry a tree over a hole with two clonks, the same holds for small vehicles.
I like the whole rope idea the best, Pulling your vehicles with the grappling hook seems pretty easy to do, do only thing i don't like about it is that you have to carry a grappling hook with you. Also, on a sidenote, i really did not like that Clonks have to carry an actual shovel with them, i feel like it should be native to them, Clonks trademark is their ability to dig (in my opinion). I wouldn't mind the grappling hook if it the shovel was always present on a clonk.
Also, i have been looking on the web for some nice independent games, and i stumbled on this game called Cortex Command. It looks like the perfect inspiration for the new clonk settlement mode, specifically for the strategy element.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJHQsFeiVXo
As you can see, the game is a lot like clonk, you control multiple guys, except there are no settlement buildings, just bases, that the enemies can dig through!
In this game you protect your own brain, and try to destroy the enemies brain, cool tactical element. Your Brain is basically the only thing controlling your robot army. The things i would take from this game would be the the vehicles, 99% of them are either using jet packs or legs. Maybe a jetpack on the clonks(kinda messed up), for easy maneuvering, they could attach their grappling hook on their vehicle that was stuck in a ditch and lift it up using the jet pack(maybe you got to make this jetpack). I would also take the concrete gun from this game, this could make it so that it's easy to make bases, also makes it possible to make art because the concrete gun is completely based on how you spray it on the map. One last thing i would take from this game would be the digger guns, these guns would primarily be used to dig through the enemies base to break in, and maybe break their flag in their base? The flag could be your main thing that you need in order to buy things, without this place and maybe some kind of merchant clonks the opposing force would win.
Just look at the game yourself, maybe download it (illegally) or buy it.
See if you get some ideas from it.
Also, i have been looking on the web for some nice independent games, and i stumbled on this game called Cortex Command. It looks like the perfect inspiration for the new clonk settlement mode, specifically for the strategy element.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJHQsFeiVXo
As you can see, the game is a lot like clonk, you control multiple guys, except there are no settlement buildings, just bases, that the enemies can dig through!
In this game you protect your own brain, and try to destroy the enemies brain, cool tactical element. Your Brain is basically the only thing controlling your robot army. The things i would take from this game would be the the vehicles, 99% of them are either using jet packs or legs. Maybe a jetpack on the clonks(kinda messed up), for easy maneuvering, they could attach their grappling hook on their vehicle that was stuck in a ditch and lift it up using the jet pack(maybe you got to make this jetpack). I would also take the concrete gun from this game, this could make it so that it's easy to make bases, also makes it possible to make art because the concrete gun is completely based on how you spray it on the map. One last thing i would take from this game would be the digger guns, these guns would primarily be used to dig through the enemies base to break in, and maybe break their flag in their base? The flag could be your main thing that you need in order to buy things, without this place and maybe some kind of merchant clonks the opposing force would win.
Just look at the game yourself, maybe download it (illegally) or buy it.
See if you get some ideas from it.
I played Cortex Command long before I played Clonk... :|To be honest I think Cortex Command is a poor example of a Settlement Game; you build some structures then fend off hordes of enemy soldiers. That's about it.
That is true, It does get boring quickly. The only thing that kept me playing this game for a while is the physics, it's enjoyable to watch some guys head get blown off.
But, even though it is repetitive, and not as much as a time waster as clonk is, there are things that i have already mentioned that you can take from there to make the settlement mode rely on strategy as well as building a settlement.
Such as:
• The 1 thing that you need to protect at all costs (the brain). This could be used as a goal when creating a clonk strategy/settlement mode, but as i said, replacing the brain with a flag, or something that depletes resources to the point were it can't support the upkeep, and then all the enemy needs to do is destroy your last clonks available. (like food in Warcraft 3, upkeep is also present in it)
• Using the concrete gun, or a similar contraption in clonk to make dynamic forts/buildings. This could provide a tactical element such as making the enemy clonks need a jack hammer or something in order to get into your base, and your clonks could need to patch it up before they get in. This also does not mean that the buildings in previous settlement modes will be dynamic, I think they will still use resources just you will be building your places inside of your dynamic concrete-based base.
Those are the only 2 points i can take from Cortex Command, but i believe they are beneficial (to the gamemode) as well as valid points.
But, even though it is repetitive, and not as much as a time waster as clonk is, there are things that i have already mentioned that you can take from there to make the settlement mode rely on strategy as well as building a settlement.
Such as:
• The 1 thing that you need to protect at all costs (the brain). This could be used as a goal when creating a clonk strategy/settlement mode, but as i said, replacing the brain with a flag, or something that depletes resources to the point were it can't support the upkeep, and then all the enemy needs to do is destroy your last clonks available. (like food in Warcraft 3, upkeep is also present in it)
• Using the concrete gun, or a similar contraption in clonk to make dynamic forts/buildings. This could provide a tactical element such as making the enemy clonks need a jack hammer or something in order to get into your base, and your clonks could need to patch it up before they get in. This also does not mean that the buildings in previous settlement modes will be dynamic, I think they will still use resources just you will be building your places inside of your dynamic concrete-based base.
Those are the only 2 points i can take from Cortex Command, but i believe they are beneficial (to the gamemode) as well as valid points.
your previous quotes,
'If that is not something you want to make clonk into, i am not really sure what other direction it can go, there is not a lot of creative freedom when it comes to settlement mode.'
Personally I dont think you can have more creative freedom THAN settlment, especially in multiplayer. Me and my brothers have played clonk world countless times, knights pack, magic pack etc. and we have made incredible castles, caves, tunnels, etc. and have had EPIC fights.
If you have played the previous clonks you would have noticed that ALL the game is is stretegy, just a different kind.
Not needing to change the platforming from what it is now, pumping up the strategy portion of the game by adding clonks that are specialized in combat, and others that are specialized in the gathering of resources could be a great leap for the game.
If you have noticed in the previous clonk they have already DONE that. Magic clonks, knight clonks, king clonks, etc.
'But, even though it is repetitive, and not as much as a time waster as clonk is,'
Clonk's direction in my opinion, Is to go nowhere. If you look on the clonk wiki, this is how they describe the genre. "The game features a mix of the action, real-time strategy and platform game genres." All i am saying, is to expand on that one-of-a-kind genre.'
In my opinion, it seems like you dont like clonk, just keep in mind that you are talking to people who have enjoyed the previous clonks and would like to expand from that.
And the whole purpose for OC is TO expand from the genre, and to expand clonk. and they are already doing it
'If that is not something you want to make clonk into, i am not really sure what other direction it can go, there is not a lot of creative freedom when it comes to settlement mode.'
Personally I dont think you can have more creative freedom THAN settlment, especially in multiplayer. Me and my brothers have played clonk world countless times, knights pack, magic pack etc. and we have made incredible castles, caves, tunnels, etc. and have had EPIC fights.
If you have played the previous clonks you would have noticed that ALL the game is is stretegy, just a different kind.
Not needing to change the platforming from what it is now, pumping up the strategy portion of the game by adding clonks that are specialized in combat, and others that are specialized in the gathering of resources could be a great leap for the game.
If you have noticed in the previous clonk they have already DONE that. Magic clonks, knight clonks, king clonks, etc.
'But, even though it is repetitive, and not as much as a time waster as clonk is,'
Clonk's direction in my opinion, Is to go nowhere. If you look on the clonk wiki, this is how they describe the genre. "The game features a mix of the action, real-time strategy and platform game genres." All i am saying, is to expand on that one-of-a-kind genre.'
In my opinion, it seems like you dont like clonk, just keep in mind that you are talking to people who have enjoyed the previous clonks and would like to expand from that.
And the whole purpose for OC is TO expand from the genre, and to expand clonk. and they are already doing it
I'm not going to argue about the first reply you have gave me, I understand that it is all strategy, but the kind of strategy i was thinking about was not the same as yours.
"If you have noticed in the previous clonk they have already DONE that. Magic clonks, knight clonks, king clonks, etc."
I have noticed that, Though i do not think that the magic/king/knight clonks had that great of an AI, therefore, not being really helpful while trying to build a proper settlement. I wanted to mostly emphasize the clonks that are specifically needed for acquiring resources.
"In my opinion, it seems like you dont like clonk, just keep in mind that you are talking to people who have enjoyed the previous clonks and would like to expand from that."
I find this a bit rude coming from someone who obviously doesn't understand why i would be posting suggestions for future settlement modes. I wouldn't be giving my suggestions on how to make the future settlement modes better if i didn't like clonk in the first place. By saying this, you are making it clear to yourself that i am nothing but a lonely troll. I liked clonk, that is why i am trying to give some constructive criticism. My idea was to not go anywhere with clonk as a genre, keep the genre the same, you should be able to understand that from my quote. I simply said, to make it better, the developers would simply need to expand on the settlement mode. This means, Keep the general experience the same, but make it more enjoyable and more of a time-waster. When i say Time-Waster, i do not mean to insult anyone, but that is what games are, sheer time-wasters. I simply play games for my enjoyment and to waste some time.
"the whole purpose for OC is TO expand from the genre, and to expand clonk. and they are already doing it."
I never doubted that they were expanding clonk, that is clear to anyone. But clearly, this topic is asking for guidance regarding settlement modes. That post is my guidance.
"If you have noticed in the previous clonk they have already DONE that. Magic clonks, knight clonks, king clonks, etc."
I have noticed that, Though i do not think that the magic/king/knight clonks had that great of an AI, therefore, not being really helpful while trying to build a proper settlement. I wanted to mostly emphasize the clonks that are specifically needed for acquiring resources.
"In my opinion, it seems like you dont like clonk, just keep in mind that you are talking to people who have enjoyed the previous clonks and would like to expand from that."
I find this a bit rude coming from someone who obviously doesn't understand why i would be posting suggestions for future settlement modes. I wouldn't be giving my suggestions on how to make the future settlement modes better if i didn't like clonk in the first place. By saying this, you are making it clear to yourself that i am nothing but a lonely troll. I liked clonk, that is why i am trying to give some constructive criticism. My idea was to not go anywhere with clonk as a genre, keep the genre the same, you should be able to understand that from my quote. I simply said, to make it better, the developers would simply need to expand on the settlement mode. This means, Keep the general experience the same, but make it more enjoyable and more of a time-waster. When i say Time-Waster, i do not mean to insult anyone, but that is what games are, sheer time-wasters. I simply play games for my enjoyment and to waste some time.
"the whole purpose for OC is TO expand from the genre, and to expand clonk. and they are already doing it."
I never doubted that they were expanding clonk, that is clear to anyone. But clearly, this topic is asking for guidance regarding settlement modes. That post is my guidance.
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