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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Introducing: the Railway!
- - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 02:24 Edited 2021-04-30 10:01
Accidentally bumping into Newton yesterday, we had a whole train ride to discuss something that came to our mind. Here's a scratch from today:
img removed

I have no proof yet but Newton said Peter wanted to abandon refined materials and having everything built up from raw material. Yeah, okay. Maybe this is wrong, dunno ;)
So, this idea is the... automatic settlement system or somewhat.

The Trails
I think we almost agree that idea didn't hit the spot. So the rails have to be on the wall/tunnel/midair. I got this thought from Zelda. Precisely, from the spinner. There are basically two parts of what the rail is made of:
The rail part, some bars to cling to: img removed
The crossing, something round, gearwheel-like: img removed

To construct your railway, you build a crossing and however connect it with an existing crossing (thinking still in progress...) (maybe with a line?). The railway can point in any direction. A connection between two crossings is always straight. You create your network by constructing crossing. And of course with:

The Railway Station
Something round, looking like any thing where you can engage the 'gearwheel movement system'. The flag is to show what status the station is in (think of the signal): img removed
Here you can latch the lorries. The status thing, I think there are two options suitable: 1 - Drop load and return to your starting point, 2 - Stop & disengage

Movement
I favour the following: you push a lorry to the station, engage it and the select an ending station (click through, whatever, the viewport hopping to the stations or so).  The lorry starts moving automatically, searching its way throught the network. I think something else is possible with a lot of options at every crossing with levers and stuff.
Movement should be quick, so it's fun! And why it's fun? Because you can take the ride, too, of course! Clonks can drive inside the lorries - awesome!

Signs
I draw this on the scratch. This is kinda of a bonus to the whole railway system. You can build signs along the rail. We thought of the following:
- Drop load
- Drop objects of kind x (selectable)
- Wait until something's dropped into you
See the draft for an example. Another one goes with another bonus:
- shoot at angle x (see below)

Connection to buildings
It should be possible to connect your buildings to the rails. Thus automate your production. Here's an example:
You construct your sawmill, connect the rails, push in a lorry. Then you have the following options:
- automatic drop, whenever you drop a tree in it, it starts the lorry dropping the wood off whereever you wanted it to do this
- whenever another building demands wood, the sawmill will let it go

So this is what happens in your automatic settlement (I take the CR buildings as examples):
- you go to your anvil, want to produce a sword
- anvil try and finds metal, nothing there
- anvil informs the foundry, need metal
- ore is stored in the foundry, automatically driven there from your mine where you mined it
- foundry informs the sawmill, need wood
- wood is stored inside the sawmill, because you stuffed some trees in there, the sawmill starts a lorry with wood
- foundry produces metal, then starts a lorry, too (lorry was stored in there, the one from the sawmill returned earlier)
- finally you have some metal at your anvil, fully automatic!

Yeah, I think you got the clue

What else?!
I mentioned it above. What about a railway cannon. Automatic mining with the 'shoot at angle x' sign. Automatic attacks. Whatever!
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Parent - By Killtech [de] Date 2011-02-22 03:31 Edited 2011-02-22 03:55
a friend made something similar for clonk rage. it was not 100% finished but already quite functional. however it was in the time when we stopped playing clonk and thus the rail system is not part of the mod i've posted. but he should still have the files.

it worked similar to a chairlift but instead of chairs lorries could be attached. all you needed to do was to erect the pillars and connect them with a specific wire. lorries were automatically picked up at pillars with certain setting and dropped at others. crossings needed to be switched manually by reattaching the wires accordingly.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-02-22 06:40
Sounds good in general. Especially since I really want to make production as automatic as possible so that you can actually have functioning production lines, even if you are for example fighting or doing something more interesting than carrying material around. (I have not abandonded the idea of transport Wipfs, though. But that would be an addition to some more reliable transportation concept anyway)

A thought:

>Connection to buildings


I would still really like if every building would have a chest in front where the raw material and products would go. That would simplify the interface a lot (-> add possibility to "connect" a railway to a chest and to say "pick up XY here")
Parent - By Maikel Date 2011-02-22 10:49

>I would still really like if every building would have a chest in front where the raw material and products would go.


If you mean a physical chest, I don't agree. That would just look silly, the building itself could just function as a "chest", which can only contain the raw materials it needs and the objects it produces.
Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 11:24 Edited 2011-02-22 11:31
Okay, now Rail'O'Matic? Generally in favor, though I find it a bit odd to attach that much intelligence to lorries. If we don't want to use Wipfs, maybe we should at least have the player invest into some kind of robot that allows the lorry to work on its own?

> I have no proof yet but Newton said Peter wanted to abandon refined materials and having everything built up from raw material. Yeah, okay. Maybe this is wrong, dunno ;)


What? I never said that. I once expressed the opinion some intermediate steps don't make sense, like constructing a super-flint from a flint - it's the same building, therefore we could just make the super-flint take longer and save interface overhead. Actually my kind of system would require more preprocessing stuff, e.g. for refining stones to be used in buildings.

> The Trails


Why exactly do we need rails? We already have a landscape the lorry can roll through. Crossings could simply be bumps that allow you to jump the lorry to a higher location.

We might also need boosters somewhere in there. If we allow it to stack, this could actually become very (too?) powerful: Pack your Clonks into a lorry, boost-jump yourself into the enemy base.

> Clonks can drive inside the lorries - awesome!


I like it. Must not forget though that it should not give you protection from enemy attacks... Sooner or later tracks will be in a contested zone.

> So this is what happens in your automatic settlement (I take the CR buildings as examples):


I would try to get the "try and find" and "inform" things out of there. It would be unclear where exactly to search - unless we bind it to a base region or something.

Instead, how about just having the lorry bring the material to buildings that might need it? This sort of thing would only require the lorry to make local judgments of the form "do I have something this building that I'm passing by needs?". And maybe on top of that "was there a building that I recently passed by that needs this?"

> The status thing, I think there are two options suitable: 1 - Drop load and return to your starting point, 2 - Stop & disengage


In case the lorry already drops its load automatically at buildings, we don't need the "drop" command. Just have a storage in front of it that accepts all kinds of materials.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 12:03

> If we don't want to use Wipfs, maybe we should at least have the player invest into some kind of robot that allows the lorry to work on its own?


Yes, the Guided Rail Lorry(tm) should be something available when developing your settlement further. Invest some resources on that and your automatic settlement is going, leave it alone and you're back to the hard way with no logistic.
The intelligence can derive from whatever. Robot or a sweet little wipf with a mining helmet

> What? I never said that.


Hm, yeah, got that wrong. He mentioned the super-flint thing.

> Why exactly do we need rails?


Yeah, it's also possible to have the landscape do the job. But I think rails are just easier to handle. You don't have to look after every hole you dig, not every meteorite destroys your whole infrastructure and it's not that easy for an enemy clonk with a shovel to cut your whole supplies.
As well, your lorry becomes a transportation system to overcome obstacles like lava lakes or just an abyss. Or you can let it drive above a lode of gold and have it drop the flints from there.

> Must not forget though that it should not give you protection from enemy attacks... Sooner or later tracks will be in a contested zone.


Yep, there are some vulnerabilities to think of. When attacking with clonk to clonk weapon (spear, bow, musket) the clonk(s) may fall out. It shoule be even possible to shoot while inside the lorry thus enforcing wildly firing lorry chases!
Another thing is the attack with explosives. Hit the lorry with a well targeted cannon shot in midair and it drops off the rail, spreading its contents everywhere.

> It would be unclear where exactly to search - unless we bind it to a base region or something.


You search for the nearest storage building which provides the needed material. With the 'might need' approach you still could end up with your material at the wrong place.

> Just have a storage in front of it that accepts all kinds of materials.


Okay, that makes everything easier.
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Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 12:18

> You search for the nearest storage building which provides the needed material


How would the lorry know that it can reach it?

> With the 'might need' approach you still could end up with your material at the wrong place.


Elaborate. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to make the player organize so that lorries come to buildings in priority order.

Alternatively, we could have the lorry carry out the "find" actions itself: Just make it log whatever it passes by. As it will have to pass most things two times on a given run, this should be enough to make informed decision without any pathfinding or speculation.

> You don't have to look after every hole you dig, not every meteorite destroys your whole infrastructure and it's not that easy for an enemy clonk with a shovel to cut your whole supplies.


Assuming, of course, that rails are stable enough to survive meteors or equipped Clonks. Does that mean you plan rails to be invulnerable and permanent? If not, how do you decide who's able to deconstruct them?

> As well, your lorry becomes a transportation system to overcome obstacles like lava lakes or just an abyss.


We have that already, bridges. With the great side effect that it also allows your Clonks to alternatively just walk...
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 12:29

> How would the lorry know that it can reach it?


It knows the network, the network knows what's connected. So it's just a pathfinding thing. Of course, with no network but the landscape this is impossible.

> Elaborate.


It sounds good as long as you only have one storage where you produce your stuff. But what about two buildings requiring say...wood. (workshop and foundry or whatever). Which building to supply? And what if you want to alter it? This should be an easy task but will outcome as shifting your whole transportation route, with great effort in forming the landscape.

> Assuming, of course, that rails are stable enough to survive meteors or equipped Clonks. Does that mean you plan rails to be invulnerable and permanent? If not, how do you decide who's able to deconstruct them?


Yeah, here's still some thinking to do. But I would strongly favour rails more tough than getting destroyed by one little hit.
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Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 12:43

> So it's just a pathfinding thing.


You can't simply ignore the landscape. There might be a few pixels in the way when you want to get to your preferred storage, while another working one is just a bit farther away.

> Which building to supply? And what if you want to alter it?


You download Rail'O'Matic v2 from CCAN. Seriously though, your system also has no priorities. If we want to auto-produce (which is kind of the whole point, isn't it?), we get into the same questions of which of the orders to prioritize. In your case we would actually have a lorry to allocate on top of that, making it even harder. Do you want lorries to combine orders where possible? The thought of scaling that up scares me greatly.

Dump lorries on the other hand would make reasonably efficient progress in this kind of situation with a lot less headache for us.

> But I would strongly favour rails more tough than getting destroyed by one little hit.


Maybe we could just make concrete more useful here...?
Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 13:26
Just for the record: I do see the appeal of rails. But they are in part a redundant concept, so we need to be extra-careful here. Hence me playing devil's advocate.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 15:01

> You can't simply ignore the landscape.


That's another question. This is actually what you have to watch for: that there's nothing in the way. A lorry bumping into anything solid results in the lorry falling off. So your enemy can jam your system with loam.

> Seriously though, your system also has no priorities.


Yes, because what the lorry does is the automation of what the clonk already in CR. When you want to produce a sword at the anvil, the AutoProduct functionality fills the clonk with commands: acquire hot metal -> find forge -> acquire burning material and metal -> wood & metal -> find sawmill -> chop tree -> etc.
The other possibility is that you select your sawmill and give the command "deliver wood to point x" where x is some other building on the network. Then you have the full control over what's happening and the lorry itself decides where to drop things off.

> Maybe we could just make concrete more useful here...?


This prevents you from what I want to avoid: not be able to further develop the landscape / your mine whereever you want to without having to reform your network.
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Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 18:47

> A lorry bumping into anything solid results in the lorry falling off. So your enemy can jam your system with loam.


Which is better than your enemy jamming your system with a shovel exactly how? ;)

> Yes, because what the lorry does is the automation of what the clonk already in CR.


That's not a plus in my book, much to the contrary. I really hate this sort of "intelligent" automation where we build something with the expressed purpose of "solving" our own gameplay puzzle. That just blocks us from making it more interesting in the future. Make it about what it does, not what it achieves.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 18:49

> Which is better than your enemy jamming your system with a shovel exactly how? ;)


It's way easier to remove landscape stuff than to create it anew.
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Parent - By ala [de] Date 2011-04-20 08:55

>So your enemy can jam your system with loam.


Btw. in scenarios with earth quakes or snow a clearing vehicle (german: Räumungsfahrzeug) for the trails might be wonderful :). It could have an attached lorry in which the earth and snow chunks are put into, it should not remove materials out of the map without problems.
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2011-02-22 13:09

>Assuming, of course, that rails are stable enough to survive meteors or equipped Clonks. Does that mean you plan rails to be invulnerable and permanent?


Perhaps like this: Friendly clonks can deconstruct (and construct) any tracks onto the crossroad-stations. Enemy clonks will have to destroy the crossroad-station.

> We have that already, bridges.


No, we haven't :-P, yet. A track-transport might be more sufficient in some (most?) cases, also its faster :-)
Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 13:17

> Friendly clonks can deconstruct (and construct) any tracks onto the crossroad-stations.


What happens when you have two bases connected by rail and one gets conquered? Who does the rail belong to? I don't like such arbitrary ownership rules.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 15:04
That's not hard to solve, I think:
Ownership is defined by the ownership of the crossings / buildings / things the rail is connected to.
Both belongs to one player -> only he can deconstruct / construct
They belong to different players -> both can deconstruct, but only construct when they're allied
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2011-02-22 13:05

>When attacking with clonk to clonk weapon (spear, bow, musket) the clonk(s) may fall out. It shoule be even possible to shoot while inside the lorry thus enforcing wildly firing lorry chases!


Hehe, that could be fun. Easy to implement technically too. The clonk would just "ride" the lorry. (Theoretically you can shoot the bow while on the boompack already now.)
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2011-02-22 12:54 Edited 2011-02-22 12:57

>Accidentally bumping into Newton yesterday


I want to stress the coincidence this happened ^^: Clonko lives in Hannover, I live in Hamburg. We met at the central station in Bremen when I came back from visiting Sven and actually, in the same (train) ride share! What are the chances of that :-D

Nice scetches, very inspiring.

Though, perhaps you remember that we talked about the rails too but came to the point that it would be easier if you only have to build the crossings and connect them somehow. So the metaphor of mechanical belts (German: Riemen) or roller chains is more fitting for that kind of construction. Also, with it animated and stuff, I can imagine that it would look quite cool. I mean, these lorry-wagons could still be propelled by steam :-).

I like this general idea so much because you can build so much cool stuff with it. You know, really big "machines" with the belts+lorries+signs you put there being the infrastructure/logic behind it. Just with the signs "drop object of type X here" and "wait here until you get an object", you could theoretically even build a computer... :-D... man, that would be awesome: Addition with rocks.  Or perhaps you could build your whole production in a deep cave with just a slot to throw stuff in and a hole from which the result drops. Then you control what you want to have by a lot of switches and levers in some kind of control room ^^.
I could imagine that Sven would build some cool puzzle scenarios with it ("you have only this belt, where will you put it in this complicated machine to get object X to Y (in order to do Z with A by simultanously pressing down the pressure plate B with that table that drops down if the explosive C is incinerated by explosive arrow D which is found only if lever E is pushed exactly when above lorry F passes over that other lorry G....")?

I think, the main fun part of this rail-system would be to build cool stuff with it, not primarily it's function to make things more "convenient" :-). For that reason, I think it could be a letdown if the lorries would find through the net only autonomously (=dynamically) without levers, buttons, signs and stuff... I mean, the game can't be about making stuff so easy (with little effort) that there is less and less of the actual game left. In my opinion, the primary function of stuff in the game should be to be fun and be able to do or build cool stuff out of it, not necessarily to make things easier. If this means that base/settlement melees are not really sufficient without modifications, then base/settlement melees are not really sufficient without modifications. *shrug*
Perhaps, if the lorry is "driven" by a clonk, it can go into any direction.

Signs:
I can think of a few more, we also talked about that a bit: It is possible to deactivate/activate a sign by either manual control (interacting with it) and by levers. You put a lever somewhere, then connect the lever with the sign through a power line. If a lever is pushed, an electric impulse is send and the sign is activated/deactivated. Or since it is a power line: You connect the coal plant with a sign that says: "drop coal" at a track above the plant - if the power goes out, the shield is activated and the next lorry that comes by drops a coal (if it has one) :-)
Another one: a lever-sign - like a lever: sends an electric impulse down the connected power line if a lorry passes this track
Even another one: a stop-sign - the lorry stops here until the sign is deactivated (a lever is pushed / connected power line switches from 'no power' to 'power' or other way round)

With all this electric-impulse stuff, one could do much more: Open/close gates and doors (a big steel door that opens and closes automatically to let a lorry in), activate traps, shoot cannons, do magic (some automatic-caster-machine), turn on and off lanterns on the walls (or create an animated chain of lights), activate production of a production building and dunno what more. Probably, much more ^^
Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-02-22 13:14

> Signs:


That's mostly the mechanisms idea that was discussed a few times already. That kind of thing could be pretty fun to have in the core game.

On the other hand, I don't really like the magic signs. I always felt they were quite unintuitive and complex to set up in CR. We should try to get the same effects using just, say, switchable direction changers, boosters and buildings. So if we really need a dedicated something that sorts materials, it should be a such a building imo - the lorry should just transport stuff.
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2011-02-22 16:37 Edited 2011-02-22 17:17
You mean the signals, right? Yeah, they were a bit unintuitive. These "signs" could be set up like this: You produce a sign with 2 wood or something in the tools workshop as an item. You carry that item in your hands/backpack and you are able to use it in front of tracks. On usage, you can choose which kind of sign it should be (stop, trigger, drop, etc...)
Same with these crossroads: You produce one...lets call it... engine in a workshop as an item and can directly put it somewhere via use, like the rope ladder. (These engines are not that big).
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 15:02
Ah yes, I forgot the trigger sign!
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Parent - By ala [de] Date 2011-04-20 09:00

>Also, with it animated and stuff, I can imagine that it would look quite cool. I mean, these lorry-wagons could still be propelled by steam


The old CCAN idea of a lorry which can be tilted over (german: Kipplore!), might look awesome in such a mechanism as well, provided - that not all the objects exit the lorry at the same position and time.

Such a lorry might have other benefits, and fits melees quite nice ;)
Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-02-22 14:28
[x] manual railway cannon!
Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2011-03-04 17:05
How are the lorries, or whatever is transported, fueled?

I guess there are three solutions:

- No fuel at all - praise the magic engines!
- Individual fuel: each lorry has its own engine, thus needs its own fuel
- Network fuel: one container for fuel at the main station, which powers all vehicles - the more you have, the more energy you need.
  - Lorries always have power, regardless of where they are
  - Lorries get recharged every time they enter the main station

i personally dislike the idea of each lorry having its own fuel. IF there will be some kind of energy needed (maybe also simply electric energy), there should be one central point at which you need to "recharge" the power.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-03-04 17:16
Well, I can imagine the need of (electric) energy but I think that's another question. Fuel (as in burning material) makes it too complicated. So far, I think magic will do. Like the steam-engine in CR.
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-03-05 16:48
I'd accept it that the building needs power if the power rule is turned on. If we make power a requirement for many basic things as in CR then that wouldn't hurt.
Parent - - By Newton [pa] Date 2011-04-02 01:14
Just a short note because I only saw that now: Any reason why you didnt upload these into the forum? They will be deleted on abload.de sooner or later, I am sure.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-04-02 08:56
abload.de says it doesn't delete images
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-04-02 15:54
They doesn't get deleted as Zapper said.
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Parent - - By ala [de] Date 2011-04-20 08:43
Really, really great idea.

I decided to transalte my (old) transportation system, which is part of a bigger building concept I currently write.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Transport:


a) How will we get our lorry out of this lake?
b) How will we get this lorry across this valley?
c) How will we get this catapult to the frontline really fast?

Answers:
a) Rope
b) Rope
c) Rope

Inspiration: http://www.cc.striver.net/shots.php?action=sh&id=2309 - this screenshot.

The rope packs already has every possible thing we need:
Ignoring the changing landscape, a rope-way can transport objects along the map without trouble like a ski-lift. It might transport any type of vehicles from lorries to submarines with less trouble and pretty fast :)

In Additional:
-Vehicles shouldn't get stuck at every pixel anymore
-There is a baloonpack on the ccan: Inspired by this baloons might be constructed and deconstructed nearly anywhere. Also catapults might constructed fixed to a point like the catapult in tyrons snow flury. Has anyone of you seen a knight in a middle age which brought his ramms across half the country? No, they were build right before the enemies castle - transport always has been cumbersome, even in real life!
-rope winch: Might pull vehicles forceful out of trouble, could be either build or transported (beeing another vehicle).

The elevator:
Simple thought: Adjacent elevators could get brought together if wished, to construct a big elevator (like from the Clonkcenter) - this one might transport nearly everything. Another though is that elevators which are constructed above each other, might connect nicely as well.

Now there is a problem left, I'd call it short distance trouble:
Our lorry made it out of the mine, up the elevator and across the valley with the rope way... but the base is build just a bit higher, what now?

a) A number of clonks might pull the vehicle up with a rope - the rope winch vehicle could be used as well for such small hassles.
b) Bridgesegmentes might be used in diagonal ways, like in the scenario Bridgefight: http://www.cc.striver.net/shots.php?action=sh&id=2457 - deconstruct and construct them as wished to cross weird landscape forming.

Is this enough? I fear we might need another idea for short distance situations.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I concepted this without the lorries in mind. But I see nowthat the systems might interact quite nicely: Mining ways would look weird in the air - and the ropeway would look weird in the mines ;)
Mining ways could be attached to the background material tunnel and used for the big systems you discussed. The ropeway could be used to cross valleys, and to transport something up a mountain.
Parent - By ala [de] Date 2011-04-20 08:48
Hm.. it seems that such a method already exists in CR: http://cc.striver.net/shots.php?action=sh&id=2302

Clonk is really sick. One might play it 9years, nearly everyday for hours and not know half of it's content :O

But nevertheless, I'd really like to see it professionally shaped to fit the typical clonk settlements.
- By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-02-22 12:15
Here is a new approach of design from today, with a 360¬į gear wheel ring around the lorry:
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- - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-04-01 15:46 Edited 2011-04-02 15:52
Whargarbl.
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Parent - - By Maikel Date 2011-04-01 16:01
That seems like something we should indeed consider, I like revolutionary ideas.
Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2011-04-01 16:11
Cable system was enough revolutionary already...
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Parent - By PeterW [gb] Date 2011-04-01 17:16
What would be the reasoning? I always considered it to be a nice strategic element that production buildings were fixed at a location. Sounds to me like you would effectively make all buildings into vehicles, leaving only the structural ones to actually place. That could be seen as a simplification.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-04-01 17:45
Like Peter I would as "why?" first.
Yes, it is an idea. One that would probably work in some way or another. But what would also work would be having the items teleported to some central storage and be used from there or have them transported via some tube system or a lot of other stuff.

Right now I have only negative feelings about the moving buildings. :)
Especially because it would limit you a lot in the building design!

PS: Why would that actually help? Let's say I have a Furnace, and Anvil and maybe a Tools Workshop (that needs gears from the anvil). If the buildings could move I would probably move the Tools Workshop next to the Anvil next to the Furnace. Then I would somehow have to transport my ore to the Furnance. Probably in some sort of Moving Storage Structure (lorry? :)) )
Or I could just move the three buildings directly to my mine. Then I would have to move the finished goods (railway parts for example) to the location where I need them, using ..a lorry again? :)
Parent - - By Newton [pa] Date 2011-04-01 20:02
What? The buildings travel on the railway?! How would that look like?
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-04-01 20:40
Parent - - By Newton [pa] Date 2011-04-02 01:12
lol... btw, you should upload this into the forum so that it to "fuer die Nachwelt erhalten" ^^
Or is there any reason why you uploaded it there?
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-04-02 08:58
Habit I guess - and to save space!
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2011-04-02 15:56
April Fool's over now.
Reply
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-04-02 17:08
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Introducing: the Railway!

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