> O.o Since when did split screen slow the performance? 

in all the games where split screen has literally a "split screen", that is more screens to render. Maybe clonk is not really affected because it is not "over the edge" in graphics technology, but if you take a lot of modern games you will have that fps are lower if used in split screen (and that's a bit logical since you have two render 2,3,4 different views). But this point is a bit OT

btw: I really agree with you that a system that could allow every preferred setting could be the best one to follow, but it's also one of the toughest to implement since you have to implement, test and support all the different styles at the same time.

About cortex command: in my opinion aiming with the keyboard in a game where u have to aim 360° will always be slower than aiming with the mouse, and require also a lot of workarounds, like clonk hazard system that doesn't allow to aim while moving (killing a lot of the gameplay imho). And aiming is a MAJOR point in the game, not a minor one...
I still like the idea of support split screen with many players, but I just want the general gameplay design to take more priority. that's all. if you can find a good way to implement split screen inside the chosen design, it is just wonderful. But i don't think you should take a worse system just to allow a feature. And still i think that :
aim with mouse= faster, more precise, more natural, allows other actions while doing it, all keyboard buttons are free to be used
aim with keyboard = slower, unnatural, unprecise, unadapted for fast commands (like shooting a weapon, casting a spell, etc), focus all the attention of the player on the aiming, instead of allowing him to do other stuff while doing it.

that's the only reason why i think mouse is very important. if split screen can be studied to anyway be supported, I would be the first one to be happy :)

I don't think you are an asshole. :P

In exactly what ways and what ideas are limited in openclonk by trying to make it as possible to play without mouse as with mouse?

I have room for 2-3 people in front of my pc, but not a mouse below of the keyboard. There is air below the keyboard. people can sit in air. A mouse cannot lie on air.  I cannot move back the keyboard even an inch, because a fat CRT screen is behind it and I cannot move back the CRT screen because a wall of solid concrete is behind it. And I cannot really use the space at the sides of the keyboard because at the right side, the first mouse is and on the left side, there is more air. The spaces to the left and right of the CRT-screen cannot be used either, because two fat speakers are blocking the otherwise empty spaces. (This is not meant to sound mean, only humorous =) )

But this really doesn't have to do with anything, becuase this situation is so specific and personal. When making games, one cannot go down specifically to players like this. A general way of thinking is better. And I think there is people out there (like me) which has problems with adding a second mouse and play with it. May it be due to lack of mice or space or whatever.

How do you control the mouse with a gamepad? :S

"so where is the problem in using the mouse? if you say "you have to use 2 hands!" do you realize how weak is the argumentation or not? "

There is no problems in using the mouse. Only limiting the gaming to ONLY use the mouse. A game being developed should be about expanding, not limiting, and as I said before, one of clonks greatest strength has always been its incredible flexibility in both game scenarios and way of playing. The more you limit these, the more one-wayed clonk will become.

And also, the "you have to use 2 hands" is really a good argument. There is many ways to play clonk ranging from chilly to intensive. Forcing people to use two hands makes it only intensive. There are many people in the clonk community who likes the slacking way of playing. Where you can do other stuff meanwhile. I can easily control a mining outpost while playing guitar, send sms, speak in phone, go away and make tea, eat, pet cats, whatever. This is also a matter of taste, and I think both ways should be kept.

You are talking about that the controls shouldn't limit the way the game would develop, but I have seen none concrete example of how keeping this flexibility would limit that in any way.

agree, I will close the OT because it is just a matter of personal taste as zagabar has cleverly stated

btw, I was talking about laptops, and that's just because I have seen mostly 50% of my friends that even never cared about PCs buying one in the last couple of years, and I guess the number is just going to rise and rise in the next 5 years. But this is another discussion...

anyway OF COURSE split screen is more comfortable than moving to a friend's house to play... but really, are you still thinking that having an internet connection is an issue anymore for a computer user? or that it will be in a couple of years?

anyway has said before, I am not against splitscreen, as far as it doesn't influence the general design of the game :) 

then let's go back in topic and let's think about good ways to preserve it without altering it :)

Maybe we could just add an arrow that points into the digging direction.
Another idea I had is to get rid of the fixed digging angles. One could change the direction continuous.
And what about digging upward with dirt falling down to get you back to the surface.

I found the digging system very logical. On button increase angle, one button decrease angle. Simple as cake!

I completely agree with this post.

as said, splitscreen is a good plus, and it is foundamental for some people. for many others (most of all when the project will become open source and so it should spread around internet) it is not that useful because it's easier for them to play on lan or on internet, as majority of games does. And for these players, to have the dafault control system being worse that it could be just to support a feature they won't use, it would be bad no?

if you can make both kind of people happy it would be better :)

anyway you have also to consider that most people here belongs to clonk historical community, so they are quite used to the way the game is now, the way you control the game now, and the features it supports. Many people here come from germany and scandinavia and for a small small community as clonk one, maybe split screen allows more multiplayer choices than in normal conditions.

But if you would make a test about a normal NEW internet community, with people from all the places, I think reactions would be way less "conservative"... and if hopefully clonk will spread to a bigger community, you will have to make also those new people happy..

The mouse control is not necesserily anti-splitscreen, as multiple mice can be supported without too much work.

Anyway, buttons for no-mouse-controls should be customizable even if the mouse were to become a requirement (which imo, it shouldn't because we should support gamepads). I could imagine them having the role of "hotkeys" you know from other games. In order to dig, a newbie would click on the shovel by mouse, then click the target position. Should be easy enough. An advanced player may have set the shovel to a hotkey.

Similar to how a newbie Warcraft player would click on units, then click on a spell on the command cart; but an expeirenced player would press the control group hotkey and press the spell hotkey afterwards. The hotkeys are hard to learn; but that's OK, because any idiot can play Warcraft using the mouse and progress from that.

I'm also a defendant of non-JnR, obviously, though I don't think we need to keep all of it. The digging process could be changed so a direction key will let you dig in that direction, just like in JnR. AutoContextMenu could also be activated for classic control style, if we allow hotkeys for fast access of options like buy, sell, etc. Dropping items may be a simple hotkey, which could also be set to the JnR "Down+Throw" method. So we would drop Down-Down-Throw, but allow single-key-drops if someone cannot or does not want to press two keys at the same time. We might also want to add a usable method to drop using the mouse, e.g. Alt+Click on your inventory.

In the end, the difference between JnR and classic would just be whether you keep the direction key pressed or not, which should be easy enough to maintain. The difference between mouse and no-mouse would be in how extensive you use your hotkeys.

As someone said, sometimes the keyboards cannot handle the digging in JnR.

I got into clonk planet like 6-7 years ago, and then the gameplay was as complex as rages. I had no problems with the keys. But you are right, new players find it easier with JnR.