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- - By Günther [de] Date 2011-12-26 20:53
I've thought a bit about what made the free to play rounds of Clonk 4 fun enough to make me play them over and over, and I think the answer is that the landscape was just that interesting an obstacle. I want OC to have a Goldmine round that is a strict improvement, and I think the biggest problem besides our lack of an elevator is that the Clonk can scale and hangle. While that removes some frustration potential, it also makes moving the Clonk around too easy. But I think there's a very simple solution: Scaling and Hangling has to be disabled for Clonks carrying Gold and other resources.

So I think the todo list for Goldmine is:
- No Scaling/Hangling while carrying Gold
- Selling Gold at the Flag
- Buying Flints at the Flag
- A timelimit and a highscore
- (optional) Elevator and Lorry
That should be enough for an Alpha release. After that, we have to finetune the balance:
- Buying a flint versus digging for one should be comparable in the amount of time spent
- An elevator should save more or less time than it takes to build it depending on the landscape. This probably means that the gold created from flints needs to be larger than in previous Clonk titles so that it needs less round trips to carry to the Flag manually.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-12-26 22:16

>there's a very simple solution: Scaling and Hangling has to be disabled for Clonks carrying Gold and other resources.


This is a simple solution. True.
But is it a good solution or one that is going to annoy the player?

not-climbing-while-carrying-gold implies that the player has to walk back and forth a dozen times to transport the gold? Doesn't sound like a lot of fun

I see that you want to get a quick first release with a simple gold mine. But I don't think we should throw something in that sounds that random just to make the round last longer
Parent - By Günther [de] Date 2011-12-26 23:18
The fun part is to design the tunnel system to make the walking possible. Or to place the elevator at the best position. Also, designing the tunnel so that one can throw the flint without the resulting explosion won't hurt the Clonk while maximising the gold yield. These are all not nearly as much fun when the Clonk can scale and climb because they are then almost trivial. A game has to have some challenges, and in Clonk the challenge is either the landscape or the other players. With the increased Clonk mobility, we almost eliminated the landscape as a challenge. We need to get it back.

Also, who said that there would have to be a dozen gold pieces? We can choose an amount that suits us.
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-12-27 00:23

>- No Scaling/Hangling while carrying Gold


Somehow, I've felt it for a while: The same agility in settlement and melee rounds doesn't make too much sense. I'd push this further, maybe not as far as in C4, but close.
Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2011-12-27 00:33
Fog of war that does not penetrate deeply into the ground may also work nicely. So you can't spot the gold mines easily. Maybe even need to drill test holes to find the gold. In non-dynamic scenarios, there may also bee signs and hints (like some NPC guy tells you where to find the gold)

It would be nice if there was a variant of fog that keeps an area revealed once you've seen it. So you can kinda explore the map, but aren't surrounded by blackness all the time in areas you already know.
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2011-12-27 09:57
Let's call it fog of settlement!
Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-12-27 11:21
Once upon a time, we had torches for that.
Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2011-12-27 17:44
Yeah, kinda working on that. For keeping visibility of revealed areas, I would vote having torches - or maybe make buildings into light sources?
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2011-12-28 09:29
Automatically attach torches to every building :-)
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-12-28 11:26
Automatically attach buildings to every torch!
Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2011-12-28 16:33
Automatically attach torches to every torch!
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2011-12-29 08:09
Automatically remove irrelevant posts from every forum thread :-)
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Parent - By Fluff [gb] Date 2011-12-29 11:16
You wouldn't dare.
Parent - By boni [at] Date 2011-12-29 09:39
Yo dawg, I heard you like torches...
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2011-12-27 11:58

>Scaling and Hangling has to be disabled for Clonks carrying Gold and other resources.


That would fit to my idea to make all resources and construction materials (gold, rocks, ore, coal,... wood, metal,...) carry-heavy. Then, also the graphics would fit to that behaviour ("rock is soo big that Clonk can barely carry it")
Parent - By PeterW [de] Date 2011-12-27 17:47
I don't think I buy it. CR didn't really change when we added the ability for the starter Clonks to hangle. The whole point of mining is that you eventually need a lorry to transport stuff - and at that point you run into the exact complexities you describe. Why have them for the first two gold chunks already?
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2011-12-28 13:44

> it also makes moving the Clonk around too easy
> Scaling and Hangling has to be disabled for Clonks carrying Gold and other resources.


Interesting, but I have a few doubts. It's true that an interesting landscape can provide some fun factor by having to include it into the settlement planning; However, making moving difficult is basically introducing fake difficulty - because the moving itself is not the point of a mining scenario. What you want to make difficult is moving the resources. I know this is nit-picking on a high level, and I even think it might turn out ok with the OC-Controls to disable scaling/hangling while carrying resources - But as you mentioned yourself, there's frustration potential. We should give it a try, but be careful not to re-introduce that frustration. There has to be a clear visualisation of why I can't scale and hangle - newton mentioned the carry-heavy-system - and we might have to check if its possible to get rid of unwanted gold chunks easily enough (I'm thinking of a clonk stuck in a pit with a few chunks of gold which he keeps picking up). Also, putting resources in the backpack would have to be disabled then.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2011-12-28 16:33
I would much rather have big gold chunks (see CR Paxhill: big rock and flintrock thingies) that can only be pushed around (or blasted, if you have too many flints) than imposing aritifical (and random) restrictions on the gold "nuggets".
You would have to dig carefully and push them up and down like a lorry. Maybe even selling one (for a start) could give you enough money to start with f.e. an elevator.
That would on one hand satisfy Guenther's doubts about the start and on the other hand work around weird restrictions. And it could lead to cool stuff like mining "goldrocks" with a crane :)
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2011-12-28 23:01
A very interesting idea which I in general would support. I am strongly opposed to restricting movement capabilities of the clonk because he carries certain objects though. This is far too intransparent and random from a player's view. Especially annoying will be cases of random collection of nuggets with sudden loss of bodily functions. Therefore if wanted, I would support the carry heavy solution, giving the player an understandable visual feedback of 'why can't do' and furthermore no unwanted collection.

This would introduce new game mechanics. Like the melting with the foundry which suddenly transforms the unhandy nuggets into gold bars which then may be carried without losing the ability to scale. Same with ore, ore chunk: unhandy -> metal: handy. I would even go as far as making rock this way. But for the sake of still easy gameplay rocks should be easer to split, like letting it fall down a respectable height, hitting with a hammer or so.
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Parent - - By Maikel Date 2011-12-29 23:41
Sounds good, however,

I don't see any point in making carying gold reducing physicals of the clonk, or any other reduction suggested in this thread. None of you didn't even bother to play a round, so we can just first implement the other options, before going to this buggy "carry heavy system". From that point it is more easy to judge whether such a drastic change is really needed.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2011-12-30 01:12

> None of you didn't even bother to play a round


So, what is such a difference between Goldmine in OC and CR? At least these simple scenarios are comparable enough for consideration of changes.

> so we can just first implement the other options


There are no other options mentioned. The todo list contains a list of changes that are no options (as in 'alternatives') to the main premise Günther stated: That moving the resources is too simple a task.
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Parent - By Maikel Date 2011-12-30 14:25

>There are no other options mentio...


Then I suggest not to implement any alternatives to that, which I do not consider a problem.
Parent - - By tr0ubl3mak3r [us] Date 2012-01-13 03:14
I find it interesting that the OP mentions time and scoring.  The most fun I've had in the original Clonk games, was playing RTS style.  That is, you're playing solo or with some friends..  you start with minimal structures..  then build a settlement using only resources collected yourself.  And in the event you plan on destroying your friends, the time crunch is finding the resources for weapons like flint cannons or making a small clonk army, before your friends/enemies do.  Good times.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-01-13 09:26
Signed. I also had most fun in "free games" instead of "GET ALL THE GOLD RIHGT NAO!!!".

And I am trying to make sure that those games still exist and might be even more interesting :)
- - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2011-12-30 16:57
I created the branch heavy-resources to develop and test this.
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2011-12-30 17:09 Edited 2011-12-30 17:11
- The nugget is know a model, no longer plain .pngs because otherwise mesh attachment doesn't work. Model temporary
- The clonk can no longer scale / hangle while carrying heavily (not sure if the implementation of this fits Guenther's instructions; I doubt it).
- In addition, the throwing speed of the clonk is decreased but still jumping and throwing a nugget on a higher ledge is possible.

Effects on other carry heavy objects in other scenario are totally untested!
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-01-08 14:33
Anyone has a comment on this or even tested it? So much people gave their opinion in here and now it's just silence?
I gave this a try with Maikel in a game of goldmine. I think if we really want to stick to this, there is more work to do. By now it's a little unnerving. I agreed with Maikel to construct a tunnel that will more or less allow us to move a lorry through it but even though the task is ungrateful. Unnecessary to say that carrying every single piece by hand is annoying after some time.
We really have to make up our mind how transportation should work out. It's okay to force the player into proper preparation so he has to think about how the mining has to be done. Therefore I still favour the idea in this thread because it gets the player into thinking.
But so far you feel like you get overly punished for every false dig, every wrong-placed explosion. Lorries get stuck everywhere. Fixing your path often requires more digging for loam which can result in another obstacle or the need for a second tunnel to gather these resources. Shaping the landscape isn't as easy as it is in similar games like Terraria. Or to be precise, destroying the landscape is easy, reconstructing it is hard. My to solution still would be mechanisms that don't need solid ground to function. I'm getting to this point again and again like my prior attempts to solve this problem have shown: the railway idea and the more or less ignored lift tower.
Another idea would be placeable rails (as in railway tracks) very much like the bridge elements in CR but with far more possibilities to the player when it comes to slope. Lorries pass over quite smooth and clonks still could pass through.

Well, any other comments on this still would be nice.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-01-08 19:05
I want to have a look at this today evening. I didn't know that you did another transportation thing apart from the cable cars.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-01-08 19:24
The lift tower was my attempt to have an omni-directional elevator. The idea was that you can hook any vehicles / big object you want to (like lorries, cannons or trees) and then just pull them towards the tower. The problems is that the rope as it is isn't capable of doing such stuff but horribly fails at the landscape.
My plan was then to be able to connect lift towers to each other to increase the range. If all that worked just fine, you wouldn't need a special elevator building but just have a lift tower with a cabin connected.
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Parent - By Günther [de] Date 2012-01-08 21:18

> Or to be precise, destroying the landscape is easy, reconstructing it is hard.


We really should fix that one regardless. We could make earth chunks more useful. Maybe make the earth stickier so that one can throw one chunk at a wall and have most of it stays at the wall.
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- - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-21 15:07
Anything new on this? The heavy-resources branch is fairly old. But I suppose no one really tested it? (except for Maikel)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-02-21 18:09 Edited 2012-02-21 18:14
Hmm right! Completely forgot about this. To come to a decision regarding this rather big change (oh well, there are many big changes going on currently), I suggest the following approach:

When we are done with this level, we will merge default into heavy-resources once again, create an release (with windows-installers, linux packages,.. but not linked on the download page) and post the files here in the forum and in the blog. Based on the feedback we get on that but of course mainly based on our own playtests we will have enough information to decide whether resources shall be carry-heavy or not.

I suggest to do this because to properly test the playability of this, there should be stuff available that makes transporting the materials easier (namely at least lorry, elevator) which would be part of this level.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-21 18:35
That's fair.
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