Settlement (tutorial) feedback

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Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Settlement (tutorial) feedback

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By pluto

Date 2013-04-07 11:42

hey there,

I tested the settlement tutorial yesterday. It worked fine so far, but while playing I noticed some little "problems"

1) While standing in front of a construction site, I clicked about 3 times on the "delete-building-site-button" instead of the "add-building-material-button" which was really annoying. It was not because I ve mistaken the the two buttons but I guess they are too close/and or too small. So I just did not hit the correct button. Maybe I am a little awkward?! @.@
I remember is was possible to use structures(like treasures) with hitting a number key (it was number 1 I guess) But now I only switched my inventory? Maybe this has something to do because there is no backpack-inventory anymore. What I would like to have than are "new" controls for using structures..?!

2) I was wondering about that the clonk is able to get wood by just using its wood cutter axe?! What is about the little sawmill I ve seen month ago in the forum's graphics board? It was a bit dissappointed about gathering wood is so simple.

3) I was confused that there are no more wires needed to connect power generation buildings with the structures which need the power. Of course the old Clonk Rage power-wire-system was not really good, but it was an additional part of settlement scenarios. I guess a cool new power supply system with a nice new cable system could be a nice small but funny feature.

4) The fact that a stupid banner is some sort of marketplace as well as some kind of electricity transmitter is very, very strange... First It does not make sense because it is just a banner ( and I guess as a steam punkish solution for some "mainbuilding" I imagine a little crazy machine which is attached to som ebig needle shaped crystals or whatever. Then it would be imaginable that this "thing" that it materializes gold from the stuff which is sold and that this crystalthing transmits the power to all structions in range.(Maybe this is some idea for the graphics board)
Another solution could be two seperate buildings. Whats about an energy transmitter builing (e.g. found in Space launch(?) scenearios (Clonk Rage)) and a (dynamic) marketplace. For such a marketplace I also found existing ideas for Clonk Rage. For example in Zapper's Profit valley scenario there is a marketplace which hires different merchants with different offers (and different prices?)
or what's about a marketplace where the prices are depended of demand and supply as in some other clonk scenarios?

5) the waters's edge on the right side has some "non"-material. there were some pink sharply bounded material. I guess it is a material bug? (Maybe this is a point for the bug tracker?)

All in all setting up a working settlement is really easy. In my mind it is too easy and not enough challenging with all those oversimplyfications!

By Caesar

Date 2013-04-07 15:42

Mh. I should've really switched the guide in the settlement-tutorial to force-display.

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-07 16:15

>I remember is was possible to use structures(like treasures) with hitting a number key (it was number 1 I guess) But now I only switched my inventory?

You can use a structure behind you with [Space] and when you stand in front of more structures, you can hold [Space] and press a number (shown at the bottom)

>What I would like to have than are "new" controls for using structures..?!

Chances are good that there will be revisited controls in the next release!

>I guess a cool new power supply system with a nice new cable system could be a nice small but funny feature.

I still want to use the old CR-style lines for a cooler feature than power lines

>The fact that a stupid banner is some sort of marketplace as well as some kind of electricity transmitter is very, very strange.

I don't like the market place feature, either. And for the power and selling thing, Matthi drew a draft of a more steampunkish gadget at the last CM - no one did that yet, though

>For example in Zapper's Profit valley scenario there is a marketplace which hires different merchants with different offers (and different prices?)

Profit Valley contains a lot of prototyping for OC stuff - even sproutberries are in Profit Valley! A cool market place would be nice to have, indeed :)

By pluto

Date 2013-04-07 18:24

>I still want to use the old CR-style lines for a cooler feature than power lines

Would you like to specify this mystic reply :-)?

Nice to hear that everything is on the list already

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-07 18:32

Levers, pressure plates, etc - similar to dwarf fortress

I want players to be able to actually BUILD a dungeon ingame (have a door, link it to a pressure plate and set up some traps) f.e.

By pluto

Date 2013-04-09 10:23

cables to connect switches with traps/doors? It does not reallymake sense to me, because it uncovers the traps or the hiden switches or whatever. Besides that i dont get the point why this should prevent the usage of wires as power lines as well?

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 12:21

If you can have both power and signal lines, the interface and visualization to handle them might become confusing.

If you have lots of buildings in Clonk Rage with power lines running back and forth between them usually become a chore to handle. That's especially true if one of the buildings gets destroyed and you have no idea which building is connected any more. Then when you also have pumps that need liquid lines connected, you run into a lot of trouble because you never know which line you're about to attach or detach.

Contrary to that, it's very easy to see what's connected with the flag radius system. Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to the power line system as it's not the kind of difficulty I like.

However, I could imagine having an additional long distance power line system to connect remote buildings or flag areas without having to build hundreds of flags inbetween. E.g. something like the telegraph system found in the Clonk Rage Western pack.

By pluto

Date 2013-04-09 12:50

It could work without becoming confusing by using different colors for different kinds of lines. This would be the easiest solution (maybe not the nicest one).

You're totally right that the system of Clonk Rage is quite annoying. That's why I just put in the hint, that It could become a new and nice feature, when the system gets some changes, maybe. Of course this "hint" is not that useful without offering a specific idea, which I am still searching :-(.
Whats about some game in which it is the job to create som big infrastructure things. Maybe we can found some ideas there. What's about Sim City, for example? I don't know the game but I imagine there are power line and water supply tasks to do?!

I like your long distance powerline idea. What's about a transmitter building instead of using this stupid flag as power transmitter? When they get a smaller radius as well than you have to connect only the transmitters Imagine: You have only to connect the one which is next to the wind generators and the transmitter which supplies the power needing buildings in some cave. This system would avoid that it is neseccary to connect all the buildings. Besides that, this could be also some tactical new option for some melee scenarios.
Of course this "new" transmitter building is not as important for some first tests. The flag could do this job as well, although I dont like flag building.

By ker

Date 2013-04-09 13:07

How about using the tesla coils for long distance connecting?
http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=22927#pid22927

resource: 1 metal, connects to all line of sight teslacoils and flags, add some non-damaging lightning between them and you even have a visualization that requires no hud

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 13:47

That's a very cool idea. Do we already have coil graphics?

Concerning the dual use of the flag: The flag used to be for distribution only. I just added the ability to buy stuff in some scenarios because we lacked some kind of marketplace, and some scenarios just need to offer things you cannot produce yourself.

By pluto

Date 2013-04-09 13:51

but whre are my wanted power lines :(? This Teslawhatever is now only a flag pole with larger radius?
If only the visual inaccuarcity would be the only thing, then i would prefer simply to change the flag pole into a steampunkish crystal whatever machine...

By ker

Date 2013-04-09 13:54

not at all, teslacoils give no radius at all, they just connect flags and other tesla coils
instead of power lines, you get lightning bolts.

which reminds me, if you ever create any power lines for any purpose, please make them spark and buzz when in use, the old ones are boring :P

By ker

Date 2013-04-09 13:57

hmm, to prevent previously mentioned connection troubles and reintroducing power lines:

flags give no power distribution.
tesla coils can be connected to buildings.
buildings cannot be connected to other buildings.

this would make it quite obvious where a power line comes from and goes to and which building is connected (especially if combined with glowing/sparking power lines).

By Andriel Date 2013-04-09 13:59

>tesla coils can be connected to buildings.

so they don't automatically connect?

By ker

Date 2013-04-09 13:59

they connect to each other
combine that with a maximum power line length

By Andriel Date 2013-04-09 14:04

It's just a bit critical that it does not get annoying with all these lightning bolts flickering around. Maybe just have them appear when power is needed and transfered.

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 15:27

> but whre are my wanted power lines

As I said, I don't like them and I prefer the distributor buildings having a radius for short-range transmission. I haven't heard much support for vanilla power lines from others either, so I assume we're fine without them.

By PeterW

Date 2013-04-09 14:27 Edited 2013-04-09 14:30

> However, I could imagine having an additional long distance power line system to connect remote buildings or flag areas without having to build hundreds of flags inbetween. E.g. something like the telegraph system found in the Clonk Rage Western pack.

There should however be no end-all-solution to this kind of thing - otherwise we end up again with coal plants having basically no use because it's just too easy to make a windmill farm and send the power underground.

What I think would be really cool though is if we had a tesla coil with some sort of dish with which you can choose what direction to send energy packets to (aka lightning gun?). A receiver dish (or just a flag?) could then absorb the lightning and make use of it, given you have nothing in between blocking. Bonus points if we figure out a way to weaponize it.

By ker

Date 2013-04-09 15:16

well… how about powerloss during transfer and a transferable power cap?
I mean, sending lightning bolts everywhere can't be lossless.

+1 for directional lightning

By pluto

Date 2013-04-09 15:28

I like this "power(transportation)gun" very much.

I also like ker's idea from above:

>tesla coils can be connected to buildings.
>buildings cannot be connected to other buildings.
>this would make it quite obvious where a power line comes from and goes to and which building is connected (especially if combined with glowing/sparking power lines).

both ideas put together means: The dishes as the power receivers have to be connected with the buildings which need the power and the "guns" need to be connected with the power generating buildings (automatically<->by hand/ with lines<-> without lines)
The dish and the gun should be connectable to use both in combination to correct the energy-"beam" direction e.g. on the top of a mountain.

By Pyrit Date 2013-04-09 16:28

>If you have lots of buildings in Clonk Rage with power lines running back and forth between them usually become a chore to handle. That's especially true if one of the buildings gets destroyed and you have no idea which building is connected any more.

But that's only because of the rule that lines have to be connected from a distributor to the customer. If you can connect the buildings back and forth, I don't see why it should be confusing if one building in the settlement get's destroyed. I mean you see wich buildings are connected and wich are not.

>Then when you also have pumps that need liquid lines connected, you run into a lot of trouble because you never know which line you're about to attach or detach.

What about a list of available lines you can detach from where you stand? The lines could get highlighted, so you can see wich one you are about to detach.

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-09 16:48

>I mean you see wich buildings are connected and wich are not.

I have a few Clonk Center screenshots for you:
Wasserhöhlen
Luftburgen
Ascheland
Nebelklippen
Wasserburg
Im Schlund
CPM: Wasserabbau
Tal der Könige

Please enlighten me about what connects what :)

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 18:07

> What about a list of available lines you can detach from where you stand? The lines could get highlighted, so you can see wich one you are about to detach.

Controlling would still be awkward because you'd need buttons for all the lines. Imagine doing this with a gamepad.

Anyway, I don't say it's impossible to build a usable line system. My gripe is that it's just not needed because we have a much more interesting system in the power distribution by flag radius. Flags force you to make decisions like where to place distributors and consumers so everything is covered with power. Some of the ideas posted here like the tesla coils that need vision of each other also force such planning and decisions and I like them for that. Power lines, on the other hand, don't offer any extra options. They are just a chore added to the player. But at least for me, sandbox games like Clonk are all about having options and not about having chores.

Sure you could limit power lines in length to force strategic building placement. But then, you'd just have the current flag radius solution plus the added work of placing the explicit line.

By pluto

Date 2013-04-12 09:08 Edited 2013-04-12 09:10

> But then, you'd just have the current flag radius solution plus the added work of placing the explicit line.

This sounds exactly what I would prefer. Its a nice fusion of some "new" strategical gaming element AND some bricolage which is, in my opionion, fundamental for a "clonkish" feeling.

All in all clonk is not just fun because of its great amount of "sensefull" features. Its somehow fun, because you have to do lot of stuff by hand, to get a working settlement or whatever.

I am still wondering what's the matter for the try that every creepy clonk element hast to become more automatical? For example constructing a building it is still neseccary to bring the material to the site and there was never the idea to automating this as well?!

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-12 10:33

We could implement power lines that simply don't do anything. So you could build your buildings in flag radius and then add a power line.

There are a lot of ideas for possible automation like cable lorries, switches, circuits.

By Caesar

Date 2013-04-12 18:00

The power lines could grow automatically!

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-12 18:07

But that's too easy. Maybe you have to water the flagpole first?

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-12 10:38

>Its a nice fusion of some "new" strategical gaming element

But howwwwwwwww..

Really, I don't think it's a "strategical" game element. It is just "omg lets make settlement EASIER". It is not strategical if you can get all the free power you want, it's even counter-strategical because you don't have to think about it anymore!!
Strategical would mean planning and consideration. But being able to just interconnect everything is not strategical. I don't say it's a bad thing, but it sure as hell isn't "strategical".
Meh.

By pluto

Date 2013-04-12 19:13

thats what i am thinking of the flagpole
so using lines, which are limited in lengh, would be not sooo easy and in addition we get what sven wants to have. To think over where to build the stuff

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-12 20:16

But Sven wants to have the current flag-radius-system or did I misunderstand anything?

By pluto

Date 2013-04-27 10:19

he wants the flagstuff togehter with some long distance powersystem.

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-27 11:08

Yeah, but the long distance power system need not be lines. The other suggestions mentioned here, like tesla coils that need sight of each other, sound much more interesting to me.

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-09 17:53

>However, I could imagine having an additional long distance power line system to connect remote buildings or flag areas without having to build hundreds of flags inbetween. E.g. something like the telegraph system found in the Clonk Rage Western pack.

Don't we already have that? You can pump water from place A uphill to place B and let it flow downwards at place B to "create" new energy ;)

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 18:08

It was planned but noone has implemented it yet. I only built some of the required engine functionality so far.

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-09 18:41

I thought you had implemented that :o

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 19:08

I wanted to, but a) it would have been a bit more work and b) the problem was that I just couldn't think of a realistic application yet.

It would make sense if we also had some more elements for an information processing toolkit: Data lines, switches, logical modules, remote-conrolled gates, etc. Then one could build stuff like a water reservoir as an energy buffer, a riddle scenario, etc. But as it is now, I couldn't think of proper applications unless you specifically craft a scenario to require you to use it.

If we could have the player construct logical circuits, one could build a scenario conceptually similar to Crown Hiding but instead of hiding items, each team builds a riddle room (think like e.g. in Tower of Despair) which the other team needs to solve.

By Andriel Date 2013-04-15 18:37

>>Chances are good that there will be revisited controls in the next release!

Sounds like a good topic for a blogpost. :)

By J. J.

Date 2013-04-07 16:38

>3) I was confused that there are no more wires needed to connect power generation buildings with the structures which need the power. Of course the old Clonk Rage power-wire-system was not really good, but it was an additional part of settlement scenarios. I guess a cool new power supply system with a nice new cable system could be a nice small but funny feature.

Yes I liked the old CR power lines better its was fun to have lines going everywhere. Plus you could have the power lines appear behind everything else so it doesn't look so messy. :)

By Andriel Date 2013-04-07 17:10

>5) the waters's edge on the right side has some "non"-material. there were some pink sharply bounded material. I guess it is a material bug? (Maybe this is a point for the bug tracker?)

I noticed that too, in Crash Landing right at the beginning. Could have something to do with this maybe?

By Anonymous [de]

Date 2013-04-07 18:21

ah I wanted to add a screnshot, but I didnt know where they are saved.

By Andriel Date 2013-04-09 13:57

$User$\AppData\Roaming\OpenClonk\Screenshots

By Sven2

Date 2013-04-09 14:03

That's probably a result of me cleaning up the texture map. Some maps were using undefined texture combinations, which may get assigned to different indices as soon as anything changes in the map.

I think a proper solution would be to warn against such usages when the map is loaded, because they're bound to break sooner or later (when we add new materials or textures, etc.).

By Zapper

Date 2013-04-09 17:49

BTW, Matthi's design suggestion for a new flag on the last CM looked somewhat like that:

Attachment: FlagReplacement.png - Design for Steampunkish Flag (Original Suggestion: Matthi) (114k)

By PeterW

Date 2013-04-09 18:30

Nice idea. Maybe have it hovering over a pedestal, flying higher equivalent to the amount of power available? Within reasonable limits, of course :)

By pluto

Date 2013-04-09 21:10

turn this thing around, remove the wings and the banner and when the crystal has the playercolor as color than it would be nearly my idea. but this flying thing is also quie nice, but the pedestal idea of PeterW would not be as confusing, why there would not be space for any other buildings as without any basement

By ker