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As Zapper said alot ppl dont like the actually handling of items / using of items with the left and right mouse button assign.So i made myself some thoughts about this topic, and i came up to this idea wich may could be a good option:
to explain it a bit better, i gimped somethig fast:
Explaination:
As you see there are 6 item slots on the left, you can switch through them with the keys 1-6, and use the selected with Left mouse, drop them with shift+left mouse etc, all as it was.
also there is an extra item slot on the right, where you can drag 1 item to, the right mouse key is bound to this slot.
Items will never be picked up into this slot, to get something in there you need to drag it over, or use something like strg+3 to switch item on Right slot with item on slot 3 or something (just an idea)
this might be handy, to have 1 seperated slot to have a tool or weapon in, wich you dont want to drop off or something:
could be the shovel in settlements as example, while you have the temporary stuff on the left 1-6 slots.
could be the shield or sword in melee situations, depending as the player want it.
this would help at:
+accidently dropping an importand tool or weapon
Maybe this could be a solution that fits to all?
This would be a way better idea to me than removing the right mousebutton
I really like the action that comes with the 2-key mouse in meele situations and it wont be fun to have only one button anymore. OpenClonk is very good at the current state, but it wont be very different without the second key.
Better: OpenClonk would be ClonkRage2.0 if you remove that second key :P Dont eliminate the little, better, differences between the old clonk and OpenClonk. This wont be fun. Absolutely not.
I agree that the inventory handling is a bit crappy right now. How often did i throw a flint while moving around coal, cuz i expected that the next item would be the stone, attachted to the right mouse? Too many times.
But its a great feature to have another quickslot aviable for another mouse click.
The shield for meele, the shovel for settlement.
The solution-idea to make it very seperate, with a manually assigned itemslot suits to me. Everyone who likes the right mouse can still use it. Everyone who dislikes the right mouse dont need to use it or may, at least, assign some frequently used tool to it, just to have another itemslot for carrying another stone.
Can i ask why the right click should be removed? Whats the point behind that? Is that the ONLY solution, to fix that unknown problem - killing the action ingame?
I really like the action that comes with the 2-key mouse in meele situations and it wont be fun to have only one button anymore. OpenClonk is very good at the current state, but it wont be very different without the second key.
Better: OpenClonk would be ClonkRage2.0 if you remove that second key :P Dont eliminate the little, better, differences between the old clonk and OpenClonk. This wont be fun. Absolutely not.
I agree that the inventory handling is a bit crappy right now. How often did i throw a flint while moving around coal, cuz i expected that the next item would be the stone, attachted to the right mouse? Too many times.
But its a great feature to have another quickslot aviable for another mouse click.
The shield for meele, the shovel for settlement.
The solution-idea to make it very seperate, with a manually assigned itemslot suits to me. Everyone who likes the right mouse can still use it. Everyone who dislikes the right mouse dont need to use it or may, at least, assign some frequently used tool to it, just to have another itemslot for carrying another stone.
Can i ask why the right click should be removed? Whats the point behind that? Is that the ONLY solution, to fix that unknown problem - killing the action ingame?
> and it wont be fun to have only one button anymore. OpenClonk is very good at the current state, but it wont be very different without the second key.
You shouldn't judge that before at least trying the new controls. They aren't easily available right now, that's true. I'm not sure on the current details of our automatic building system but I think it's possible to create a development snapshot from the branches, so people can have a look at that (if not, someone can surely provide a suitable download package). We played some games during the last OCM with the new controls and it definitely wasn't destroying all the fun like you assume.
Don't think that these kind of decision are made overhastily. We had a lot of discussion on the topic.
After years (by now I think) of having this control scheme (2 items on the 2 mouse keys) never came out very handy or convenient and thus, after such a long a time of trying get achieve a decent way of inventory handling, someone (boni and Zapper, I think) made a new approach. The theorising threads have gone by but I got you some parts to read below.
Having two items ready just wasn't ever that nice as it sounded or as you might think after playing hours of melee games. Really, the only set of items that ever made sense of combining were the sword and the shield (which were probably the reason why such a system was made in the first place). Or - I admit - the shield and any other weapon. Apart from that, probably no game situation is as fast-paced that you can switch to another item before using it. Personally, I usually forget in these situation the second item anyway and probably press a number key to get it on mouse 1.
To sum the new controls up, these are the changes with little explanation: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=23488#pid23488
Here's a more elaborate thread with further information (older threads) on the topic linked in the first posting: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=2483
Just so that you two are aware that discussion has been made. Again, I can only stress on the point that you could at least try the new controls before dooming them. The quick switch really keeps on the quick sword&shield gameplay and it's just so damn convenient to throw on rightclick.
>Apart from that, probably no game situation is as fast-paced that you can switch to another item before using it.
Just to add: with the mouse-wheel to scroll through your items (and the confusion about the second hand gone) I actually found the action a lot more dynamic. You could quickly throw a Pyre Gem, then change back to a Flint, throw that into the air and then scroll to your bat to shoot the flint at the enemy!
>You could quickly throw a Pyre Gem, then change back to a Flint, throw that into the air and then scroll to your bat to shoot the flint at the enemy!
and with the suggestion i had, nothing on this would changed! you could still do this all and would just get the option to use the RMB aswell for another weapon, shovel or shield or whatever you desire it.
did you really read my post? :O
i used 6+1 items cause i thought it is the desired amount of clonk carry items, ofc it could be 4+1 aswell.
this planned change with only 1 mouse button to use , will destroy the game (at least for me, and no i dont need to test it, because i know such stuff form other games (terraria, teaworlds, soldat), and know that it is quite okay.
i wonder why the clonks have the cool feature to carry 2 items in theyr hands, when it wont be used anymore?
[ironic]maybe the model should be changed then, to a 1 hand guy[/ironic]
there are enough 2d games where we can hold 1 weapn and change it with the mouseweel (terraria, teaworlds, soldat, king arthus gold, etc), so the one and only thing that would make fighting in clonk differend and more actionrich will be destroyed for no reason.
im sorry i dont get it, but it seems like the most ppl just hate the right mouse button so much, or never really played with shield and weapon in a melee, or just dont understood my post wich would be a mix out of the old and the new planned control.
clonkonaut said:
>Really, the only set of items that ever made sense of combining were the sword and the shield (which were probably the reason why such a system was made in the first place). Or - I admit - the shield and any other weapon. Apart from that, probably no game situation is as fast-paced that you can switch to another item before using it. Personally, I usually forget in these situation the second item anyway and probably press a number key to get it on mouse 1.
im preatty sure this may right, well i use often shovel and pickaxe when mining for gold on 2 mouse buttons aswell.
and even if for the most ppl the only senseful combining is weapon & shield, being the only cool way to use it is not stopping it from being a very cool way to use it.
specially since in all melee maps that there are now you can use this "only sensefull" combination.
in reallife the one and only thing you do with a printer is printing, and this wont stop a printer from being usefull and cool. (i know bad argue, but i dislike "it can only _____,so this is not enough reason to have it" argumentations)
in the explanation thread was said:
>The clonk can only use one item at the same time ("one hand"), the right mouse button is reserved for something else
what could this be?
open inventorys? bad trade (at least to me)
throw the item on slot? (pressing a key and clonks throw item to mouse cursor would do asewell) (compare to the default control of soldat: G)
giving the items a secondary function? useless when we could carry 2 items instead.
or having a unused right mouse key until someone got an idea how to use it?
> There is now a quick-switch-button ([Q]) as known from f.e. many shooters that switches back to your last-selected inventory slot.
this is a nice feature in shooters, but i play clonk because i dont want to play Unreal Tournament...
i wonder why ppl dont do some innovations.
well im sure i would use this Q key if would like to play with the new control, but since i know the luxus of having 2 mouse buttons... (i never had a macintosh)
>- The inventory bar is now displayed on the bottom of the screen, since the action-bar moved and made space ;)
i very agree with this, this is a good improvment.
Maybe there should be an option for in the menu? if its on true then the right mouse button is bound to "use item on slot 5" (or maybe a user selected slot) and then if so, the mousescroll just skipps this slot?
if the option is on false, then all 5 slotes are used as actually planned.
im pretty sure, when more players come to openclonk, specially in melee, the most ppl will use this option on true.
im sorry if my post reads kinda aggresive or something, but for me the best difference of clonk compared to other games (the use of 2 hands, on creatures that have 2 hands) will be lost.
and then clonk panet just turns to a clonkRage with WASD control and 3d models. i can set WASD in clonkRage aswell, and so then the one and only difference are the 3d graphics (well at least to me it feels this way)
i dont want that it feels like i would not appreciate the work of you guys that make the control system, it just feels like you remove a very cool feature instead of improving it abit.
p.s. when you say i should not judge it bfore trying it, then you should also not judge my variation :P
I have nothing against trying something similar to what you suggested. But for me, implementing that has a lower priority than finishing the contents/production/construction menus, so that I can finally finish a first raw version of the controls branch (which was lying around there for too long already)
i have nothing against this, i just thought that would be not such a hard modification the the actually system, just force right mouse button on 7 (or 5) and let the mousewheel only affect 1-6 or 1-4.but maybe this is just my thought, and maybe im really totaly wrong with my idea or its only me that likes the 2 mouse button thing to so much.
at all it might be an option, i mean like settings for all, like all good games have:
throw current selected item : choose a key or mouse button
use current selected item : choose a key or mouse button
[x] enable fixed item slot
use fixed item : choose a key or mouse button
[x] lock fixed item (if locked mouse wheel will skip it)
sure its a bit work,and i can easy just build a wishlist since im not in the engine development, but everybody would be happy with this, and new players could choose they own play style.
this is a bit offtopic, or maybe not? in the discuss about the interface there was also the question how to let the user know about state of building,
There zapper said:
>I rightclick on my buildings in the landscape to get the current energy and damage status. We always struggled to come up with a good solution on how to inform the player about stuff in a subtle way and always ended up with Uncontrollable and spameous GUI flashings.
i agree that the gui should not just show 213213 stuff of data,
maybe it could be like in diablo series or Starcraft/starcraft 2, there you press alt and alot of extra info is showing up:
@ diablo, the items on the ground will show theyr names
@ starcraft2 you will see the Hitpoints of all the units.
alternative there could be a "On on mouse over" info, if you go with the mouse on an bulding or object (hovering) then extra info is visible.
just an idea :)
> but it seems like the most ppl just hate the right mouse button so much, or never really played with shield and weapon in a melee
> or having a unused right mouse key until someone got an idea how to use it?
This is complete rubbish which you could have understood by reading what I wrote or what I've linked...
Neither their isn't a function for RMB in the new controls nor was the decision made lightweighted. But yeah, I already said that.
>p.s. when you say i should not judge it bfore trying it, then you should also not judge my variation :P
Feel free to implement it then and show us. But in case you expect someone else to do the work for you, you're on a weak position, hm?
>and no i dont need to test it, because i know such stuff form other games
"I already know your opinion is wrong, don't try to convince me". Yep, that's exactly what I'm gonna do, stop arguing. It's no use since you don't even properly read what's been written.
>im sorry if my post reads kinda aggresive or something
You think that would be the case? Telling the people who spent years to develop OC that they're either a bunch of idiots who never really mastered swordfighting or just want to destroy "all the fun" because they "hate" the right mouse button? Yeah, no, that's cool :)
This board is actually there to share one's opinion on what the developers have implemented. So always bringing the argument: "Implement it yourself" is not the best way to argue.
In the controls case I would actually wait for Zapper to finish his single hand implementation and improved menus. Then play with it and see whether it is an improvement over the old system on all aspects and if not we need to rethink some parts maybe.
For myself I am looking forward to test the new system, because I often mess up the item I use, throwing a flint while wanting to shovel, etc..
In the controls case I would actually wait for Zapper to finish his single hand implementation and improved menus. Then play with it and see whether it is an improvement over the old system on all aspects and if not we need to rethink some parts maybe.
For myself I am looking forward to test the new system, because I often mess up the item I use, throwing a flint while wanting to shovel, etc..
![[eu]](/mwf/flags/eu.png "Europe")
> "Implement it yourself" is not the
best way to argue.
Yeah, it sure isn't; sorry. It just comes up when there's a strong tone of "do as I say" in a posting.
im sorry if it feelt like this, i abosulety dont want to let it sound like this :(iwas just not understanding why the RMB was to be removed (wich changed now) and so i was maybe somewhat worried about this, and so it could be happend that my posts read like a "do it or die" statement.
wich is absolutley not my way, sure there should allways be a handfull discuss about the stuff (and i know you had this discuss allready and it seems like you all come to a solution, on wich zapper is coding right now)
anyway if i harmed or offended anybody with my post, then sorry.
i really appreciate the work that you guys to with openclonk.
Since you're getting all heated up in this discussion about RMB, let me add my share.My opinion is basically what Clonkonaut, Maikel and Zapper said. I don't think your idea is bad per se or anything, it's just that we're basically struggling to fix the control scheme since the beginning of this project and a lot of thought has already gone into it. The system currently being developed is the result of many people sharing their thoughts and opinions on the current system, and a lot of those people want to see how it actually plays.
Also, we certainly don't "hate" the right mouse button idea. Actually, Clonkonaut, Newton and me were the ones who sat over a unsteady table in south spain and prototyped the two-hand mouse controls with a paper cutout version of OpenClonk. Since then, a lot of time has passed and everyone in this forum (and especially in the active dev team) has spend enough time with the game to realise that the sword/shield thingy is kinda cool, me included. But I was also the one who proposed to get rid of the RMB control on serveral occasions, the last - and successful - time being this thread. If I had to sum up the reasons for it, it'd go something like "being able to raise the shield with one click less is definitely not worth the many more clicks and confusion that managing two active item slots introduce." This held especially true when playing settlement scenarios where a lot of items go through the inventory, but no fast dual item actions are needed. There's also stuff like control consistency (what happens after throwing a flint with LMB, but the next flint is already occupied by RMB? Which mouse button cancels the bow aiming if my bow is not in the left, but the right hand slot? How do i switch hands?) which just always felt off.
So, in all sincerity: Thanks for your ideas - Having a fixed offhand slot solves indeed a few of the problems and might even be worth looking into. But it does not solve all of them and also introduces new ones (If that slot is not part of the "normal" inventory but can contain an item, it's some exception in the control scheme again, for example). But for the reasons stated above and in the other guys posts, it's not likely that some dev is gonna jump out of his chair, topple over the current development and implement your idea before spending more time and thought on it. And this, as zapper stated, is just a lower priority than finishing the current development.
well, maybe i was somewhat harsh at all, because i was kinda unhappy since i liked the controls as they was alot.i studied all the forums discussion you had about this topic, and im sure i get it now why you change the system at all:
+often the wrong key was pressed in action, cause of loosing the track wich mousebutton is wich item now.
+there will be a fancy context menu to interact with opjects, give orders etc
+the stuff matthias just said a post above
and i think i should just live with it.
but let me tell a last thing on this, on wich you guys should care about:
Configurations!
maybe we should just drop the thinking of "2 mouse button", "1 mouse button", "right mouse should be this" etc.
the player should decide how he/she wants to play the game, and nobody else.
and this is easy solved by just making it configurable.
check out any game, most games have a fancy menu like this:
(League of legends as example, the currently most played game in the world)
i dont know what the red stuff want to tell us, i just googled this screenshot
i know openclonk got a similar menu, but there is nut much to set now,
specially i cant decide what i want to use the mousebuttons for, imagine Left handing guys, wich often use switched mousebuttons, or people that maybe have 3 mouse buttons and want to use them all, what about ppl that only want to use 1 mousebutton, or ppl that want to have use item on a key insteat of a mouse button (i know a guy wich is playing Quake like a pro and got "Fire" on space, and jump on LeftMouseButton) and so on.
maybe openclonk should go furter into this, and maybe you think this is a way to just get my will into it, but thats not all. let me explain abit, i was thinking alot of time about this morning.
if there where just possible to configure the stuff to key/mousebuttons it would all become very easy to dodge all "i cant live with this control as it is now" discussion.
i mean options like:
--- moving
right
left
jump/up
down/stop
--- primary item
Select Next Item
Select Prev Item
Use Current Selected Item
Throw Current Selected Item
drop current selected item
--- interaction
Open context menu
quick interact with object
--- item slot selection
item quick swap (what is desired to be "Q" now)
select item 1
select item 2
select item 3
select item 4
select item 5
--- item slot quick use
quick use item 1
quick use item 2
quick use item 3
quick use item 4
quick use item 5
--- quick throw item slots
quick throw item 1
quick throw item 2
quick throw item 3
quick throw item 4
quick throw item 5
(maybe also quick lay down buttons configurable)
--- clonks
select next clonk
select prev clonk
--- misc
open game menu (the menu where you can turn on sound and stuff)
Zoom in
Zoom out
well it looks like a lot, but its not that much since the most is just the quickstuff (wich would save the way i,biont and phillipk playing the game actually, and im sure some ppl more like the idea of using the RMB for another item,i cant believe that its only about us.)
if you then add presets to this configuration, where the default preset provides a control like you all discussed a while ago.
also there can then be another preset: Clonk Classic control style
wich will got a setting with:
moving with SYXC, instead of WASD, throw current item on A, open context on D, quickswap on the key that was in clonkrage to switch through the items instead of Q and so on.
so experienced clonk rage player could play openclonk without having the feeling of playing a completly differend game (@ controls).
also a preset as there is now for dvorak users and what about neo2 guys??? :)
for me an option settings like this have the following pros:
+clonk range players can easy switch to openclonk, at least for some games without to relearn everything.
+new players will have an easy to use WASD interface with the context menu on RMB and an intuitive control.
+freaky players can put an quick use for an item on a mousebutton (as i would do @ itemuse on RMB) or on stuff like shift+number etc.
+experienced players can adjust the controls as they want it.
+maybe someone want to play with the arrow keys instead of WASD, alot of gamers still do this, or what about the numpad guys
+also all thinking about how to handle gamepad stuff would be solved, since they could all bind the functions to theyr gamepad buttons as they want. (and of course maybe a preset for gamepad)
the cons are this:
+some more work (dont know if it would be much work, but i also programmed alot, and i think it should not be that hard to store input in variables and read them instead of hardcoded button/keyhit polling, at least for someone who is worked in with the menu, engine and stuff)
and well, my fixed slot can then just be dropped, since this wont be neccesary anymore then with a config menu like this.
well those are also just my thoughts and suggestions, there is no "must do" or something.
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