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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Impressions and questions
- - By Anonymous [de] Date 2014-01-28 09:22
Hello, the last time I played Clonk was back in the early 2000s (snailmail-registered Clonk 4 which I played almost since release for several years). I followed the development of OpenClonk lately (after I heard that Clonk is still an active franchise) and gave the recent OC4.0 a try. And I must say that I was totally overwhelmed on how much it has changed since.

I have big problems getting used to the controls. I still remeber the old numpad-only controls. Just can't make friends with this WASD-mouse combination. Is there any way to use the old controls? The mouse settings are greyed out in the controls settings menu. I always find myself doing stupid actions because I confuse the buttons. Especially hard is that you can move past the mouse cursor: Be in left part of world, click to dig to the right. Then move clonk to the right, past the cursor, plan to dig to the right - oops, forget to move the mouse with my clonk, destroyed landscape because he was diging to the left because I passed the cursor. This is heavily confusing if you are used to old-Clonk (direction of clonk determines dig/throw direction) and to egoshooters (mouse stays relative to the character).

I'm also not sure if I like the overall graphics style. Of course, the individual models and textures look great and the general direction on how it is going is great (thumbs up for the graphics designers), but I find for example that the trees stick out to much (they weren't that big in the old days, were they?) Water still looks like 15 years back, however. Disclaimer for some of the next graphics critics: I have a color-weakness, so it can be that some of my critics are due to that (still, a game should be designed as clearly as possible). I have problems to "distinguish" or "spot" some parts of the landscape, especially things like all the small "pick-upables" in the ground or wooden buildings between trees (because the contrast to teh surrounding "textures" is to weak).  Also I find the menus (inventories) shouldn't be transparent. I just can't see anything clear without moving my head almost on the screen. The background should be solid and have a light (not black) background, IMHO (because the graphics of the buildings are dark as well, like brown and grey). Currently I'm always moving my mouse to get all the pop-up text descriptions to see what I'm going to build.

Because of these two (graphics, controls) major drawbacks (for me personally at leats) I can't play the game fluently (tried for some hours now), which makes it sometimes very frustrating.

Did I just not find it, or was the leveling system completly dropped? I really liked it to train indivial clonks and see how they gain new abilities and ranks and learn how to climb faster, for example. I'm now always surprised when my "level-1" clonks hang on the ceiling after jumping in a tunnel... ;) Would be nice if there'd be an optional gameplay mode again.

Yeah, of course, there must be changes, otherwise there'd be no reason to develop at all, I know. But is there any way to adjust the game settings in a way that the gameplay is as close to Clonk 4 so that I can start slowly to get used to the new game by enabling and testing the new featues one-by-one? I know this from OpenTTD which I like playing very much, too. You can set it to behave just like original Transport Tycoon, and slowly enable newer features to see how you like them, one by one.
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2014-01-28 11:09
Hi there! And thanks for the feedback :)

> I have big problems getting used to the controls.


At first, I had some problems, too. But for me, after hours of playing, they resolved themselves. There is no way to change back to the old controls; as the game now heavily depends on the mouse and proper steering of the clonk, it would be nearly impossible to simulate anything close to the old controls. It is also undesirable, to maintain two different control styles. We had that in Clonk Rage and one or the other got often overlooked and if not, it was twice the effort.
You can set the movement controls back the numpad of course, if that's something more convenient to you. WASD just was the first choice at hand as many and more other games nowadays utilise these. The new controls are easier for anyone not coming from an older Clonk title. If you still got trouble, you might want to try Clonk Rage with the Jump'n'Run controls first. Transition from Clonk 4 to OC might be even harder since you left out 3 whole games!

> overall graphics style


We are currently in the process of a graphics overhaul that will hopefully lead to more contrast in textures. It wasn't ready for the current release though and the people responsible haven't given any live sign since a couple of month ago.
I agree on what you said about the menu backgrounds.

> Did I just not find it, or was the leveling system completly dropped?


It is dropped. Again a maintenance thing. With Clonk Rage, online play in Clonk became more and more popular. But in order to play online, you had to do several hours of offline playing in order to get your clonk(s) to full health and being able to climb. Without climbing, your clonks often remained useless in competitive play. Also, cheating was a bit of a problem as you could easily edit your clonk's profile. Thus in CR the fair crew button was introduced. Activating it always gave every player the same characteristics for the clonks, making competitive games far better. Soon afterwards, progression in climbing skills was abandoned as this was a huge drawbacks for any newcomer and veteran player as well. As soon as all of your 'good' clonks were depleted, you were left with the useless ones.
Training your clonks became more and more of an offline feature and less important.
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Parent - - By Newton [th] Date 2014-01-28 12:35
I found his comment on the mouse controls interesting. It never occured to me, but perhaps just because I am so used to it already:

>  Especially hard is that you can move past the mouse cursor: Be in left part of world, click to dig to the right. Then move clonk to the right, past the cursor, plan to dig to the right - oops, forget to move the mouse with my clonk, destroyed landscape because he was diging to the left because I passed the cursor. This is heavily confusing if you are used to old-Clonk (direction of clonk determines dig/throw direction) and to egoshooters (mouse stays relative to the character).

Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2014-01-28 12:56
Yes, very interesting. Never thought about that, too. It makes sense to have the mouse cursor scroll along when digging. On the other hand, when in combat, it might lead to you missing the shot because you just had to dodge a projectile which caused the screen to move slightly.

I can't decide which of the two behaviours is superior.
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Parent - By Anonymous [de] Date 2014-01-28 15:33
A way I could imagine: Only handle vertical mouse movement when being in dig or shoot mode (but still handle absolute movement in any other mode, like building mode). How would this work? The dig/shoot direction is determined by the clonk himself (left or right, changed with A or D, "the direction he looks to"), but the angle is determined by the vertical mouse movement. The cursor would always be somewhere on a half circle in front of the Clonk, and moving the mouse up or down changes only the angle (but never to the back side of the clonk), moving the mouse left or right has no effect. When facing right/left and pressing A/D (left/right) the invisible half-circle is mirrored to the left/right.

This would basically be "mapping" 3d-first-person WASD+mouse behaviour (like everyone is used to from egoshooters) onto 2d-third-person WASD+mouse behaviour.
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Parent - By Pyrit Date 2014-01-28 19:45
Good ol' Radiergummiclonks...
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2014-01-28 12:51
It's always great to see old and new players rediscovering the game and taking their time to write good feedback :)

I'll try to explain a bit, why certain things were changed and what the motivation behind those changes was.

The controls first: even though experienced players mostly had only little problems with the controls, new players got frustrated very quickly and had a hard time learning the controls. Clonk never was a "game for everyone" and we think that this was to a good part due to the lacking controls.
Not only were they pretty unintuitive, because players could not compare them to any other game they played, they were also pretty tricky and often required weird combinations of buttons. One example is that the old Clonk titles basically used double-dig for nearly everything. Ever tried to chop a tree while carrying a construction-kit or something like that? Well, with the old controls that simply wasn't possible.
Because the problem was known not only to us but also to the original Clonk father (Matthes Bender), he and the ClonkRage development team introduced a reworked control scheme in ClonkRage a few years ago. But that rework was highly limited by compatibility issues: you could not do any real changes without breaking all existing objects.
And even later on those controls turned out to be more hassle for developers, because certain work had to be done twice.

In OpenClonk we now had the real cool opportunity that we could re-create the complete game controls without having to worry about breaking existing stuff. So we sat down and talked a long time about how the controls should work and what we thought was best for the players. That process is not finished yet btw! Control changes are going to come at some point in the future.
But we ultimately decided on a control scheme that would be a lot more intuitive - nearly every player has already played games with WASD+Mouse. And not only would it benefit new players, but it requiring the mouse would also give us, as the developers, new possibilities for objects, interaction and gameplay.
For example aiming with the rifle in the ClonkRage Western-Pack was pretty awkward - you had dozens of angles and aiming up and down one angle requiring one button press. So, to actually hit stuff you had to hammer your buttons like a mad badger.

I believe the control changes turned out to be a good decision - in OpenClonk you can actually just give the game to a new player and have them play the game instead of trying to work out how to dig a tunnel for half an hour.
It might need a bit of adaption by veteran players, like you, but I think that Clonk players were always pretty good in adapting to new things and situations so I believe that it shouldn't take to long to get used to the new controls :)

To the leveling system: as Clonkonaut already pointed out it eventually turned out to be a single-player feature. Not only did it allow players to "cheat", but it also gave players unfair advantages or disadvantages in online play. It even made designing single-player scenarios harder, because a scenario that was of moderate difficulty for an experienced player could be impossible for a new player, just because their Clonks could not climb - quite unfair if you ask me! I am not saying that it was a bad feature for single player or local or just peaceful settlement games! But for now we dropped the feature because it would require maintenance and work. Work that was spent doing other, more important, features first. Maybe it will come back in some way in the future. Possibly as a user-created mod. Who knows. But right now there are no plans by us to put it into the game again.

to the textures and graphics:
That's actually a more or less ongoing discussion among the developers, too. There will hopefully be some changes to that.
Parent - - By Marky [de] Date 2014-03-30 14:03
I'll use the opportunity to give some feedback. On the controls.

The two-hand system
Originally I liked the idea, but it in practice I found it to be a hassle. I didn't play the tutorials, so I don't know how much is explained there. So far I don't know how to set the Mouse Right button to one of the inventory slots without using the mouse button. With the left button and the hot keys it works perfectly. As a result I end up using only the left button for interacting with objects and set the right button to some tool or something that I rarely use.
Collecting items seems to be connected to this as well, depending how the mouse buttons are configured to the item slots: Sometimes the clonk collects items just by running over them, sometimes he collects only items in the right item slots, sometimes I have to press Control Down before I can collect anything. This is very confusing!
Also, how do you throw loam or hammers?

Interact button
Comes very handy, but I have my problems with it again. Example: I want to push a lorry to an elevator and go down. Upon pushing the lorry on the case, the clonk stands next to the case. "Interact" lets go of the lorry. Clonk steps on the case. Now I have to look which Interact + Hotkey combination will grab the case. I do the combination, drive where I want. Now I want to exit the case, so I look up the combination again and use the one that grabs the lorry.
Another example: I have a building that can perform an action while you are outside, and you can enter the building, it has no function inside (yes, the design is strange). So far I encountered three ways the Interact + Hotkey combination works, depending on the circumstances:
A) Clonk outside the building
I + HK1: Perform action
I + HK2: Enter building
B) Clonk inside the building
I, I + HK1: Leave the building
C) Clonk outside the building, lorry in front of the building
I + HK1: Perform action
I + HK2: Grab/Leave lorry
I + HK3: Enter building

In practice it turned out that I memorize the combination for entering the building and do the same combination for exiting - which has no effect anymore.

I am usually not one to rant without offering a solution, but so far I have no idea. Looking at the script side of things I am happy to discover that a lot of it is more customizable than before, and the whole concept seems thought through very good.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2014-03-30 16:05

>Originally I liked the idea, but it in practice I found it to be a hassle.


You are not the only one! There is currently work going on in the development branch "Controls" to adjust the controls (and the interface) a bit. For example, the two-hand-stuff is removed. Also, in the "Controls" branch, you currently throw objects with right-click and use them with left-click.
In the main branch you can throw loam and other tools with Shift+Click.

>In practice it turned out that I memorize the combination for entering the building and do the same combination for exiting - which has no effect anymore.


Mh, so the problem is the default order of the entries? How should they be ordered? I think currently grabbed objects (Lorry) are at the front, so when you let go of the lorry all other entries change the positions and move to the front. I don't know how that could be changed, though. If you have suggestions, please tell :)
Parent - By Pyrit Date 2014-03-30 16:30
Hold space, select with mousewheel the object to interact with and interact by releasing space?
Parent - - By Marky [de] Date 2014-03-30 17:52
The new control stuff sound great :)

Regarding interaction: Personally I prefer action based buttons, a little as in Clonk Rage. I understand the reason why the interaction button currently works that way, i.e. jumping does not enter buildings and pressing down does not grab objects and so on.

Something like:
Hotkey 9 = Grab/Ungrab objects (if more than one present -> hold button and select with mousewheel/click)
Hotkey 0 = Enter objects
Spacebar = Other interaction

Now that I think of it, there is really not much more that you want to do with objects, so why not use:
Shift + Space = Grab/Ungrab
spacebar = Enter/Other interaction

Or whatever. As I understand the entering buildings part is to be removed anyway, is it not?
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2014-03-30 19:10

>Now that I think of it, there is really not much more that you want to do with objects, so why not use:


But what if you put a lorry into a blimp (in front of your workshop) and there are mushrooms growing everywhere!

>As I understand the entering buildings part is to be removed anyway, is it not?


Yeah. You should not be able to enter any building atm
Parent - By Maikel Date 2014-03-30 19:26
You are able to enter the WoodenCabin, but not exit it :D
Parent - - By Marky [de] Date 2014-03-30 19:59

>if more than one present -> hold button and select with mousewheel/click


should still apply :D
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2014-03-30 22:09 Edited 2014-03-30 22:14
Currently in the Controls branch, the action bar is not shown at the bottom of the screen anymore anyway.
When hitting [Space], you interact with the first object. When holding [Space] you get the possible interactions in the middle of the screen (see screenshot) and can then either click one or use a number key.

The interactions with buildings (production f.e.) are not in the action-bar-menu but in the old "Inventory" menu. So that should confuse players way less anyway (see other screenshot).

PS: for all the we-want-all-the-CR-menus-back-fanatics: those menus in the screenshot are completely scripted. Implementing the old context menu, or stuff like that, should be ~easy.
Parent - By Marky [de] Date 2014-03-31 17:25
That looks a lot more manageable than the old controls!
Parent - - By Marky [de] Date 2014-04-19 17:34
So, when are the custom GUIs coming to the main branch? I want to use them for my project (implementing something for my project, depending on a branch does not seem like a good idea).
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2014-04-19 17:44
As I said somewhere else: I won't be able to finish the bigger stuff at least until my Bachelor's thesis is done.
The bigger stuff is mainly: fix savegames and rewrite the GUI stuff to use C4Gui.

So. At least not in the next two months.
Parent - By Marky [de] Date 2014-04-19 18:28
Totally understandable.
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Impressions and questions

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