![[pl]](/mwf/flags/pl.png "Poland")
When you mentioned more advanced use of mouse in OC I tought, that it would be impossible to play with keyboard only, and got saddened, but ready to say "Goodbye" to split-screen. But when I downloaded and compiled OC... Hooray! It is possible to implement good working keyoard-only controls, that dont even give such huge disadvantage compared to players with mouse. If you would like to test similiar controls download game called Cortex Command.
Good set of controls would be(for one player):
A & D - move left/right
W & S - aim up/down (crosshair would be neccesary), or move up/down when climbing wall(you cant aim then anyway... I think)
Q & E - next/previous clonk(or other character)
And now other controls, if you have larger hands you may want to shift these keys right by one.
C - fire/use
V - jump
X - Crouch/Lie down/Whatever similiar
F - zoom (move crosshair further and center screen on it. Would make chances of people w/o mouse bit larger). A/D zooms in/out
B - open menu
LShift+C - throw
There would not be secondary item throw/use, but that is not THIS important.
Hey... wait a moment... isnt German keyboard a bit different... hmmm... I once had german keyboard, nope, only symbols were at other places. Just dont tell me to modify PlayerControls.txt...
It does not work well, as you always throw left when not using mouse, you can only dig downward, and cant aim at all...
EDIT:
Example controls for second player:
Left / Right arrows - move L/R
Up / Down arrows - Aim up/down
[NUM]7 & [NUM]8 - next/previous clonk(or other character)
And now other controls, if you have larger hands you may want to shift these keys right by one.
[NUM]1 - fire/use
[NUM]2 - jump
[NUM]0 - Crouch/Lie down/Whatever similiar
[NUM]5 - zoom (move crosshair further and center screen on it. Would make chances of people w/o mouse bit larger), left/right zooms in/out
[NUM]3 - open menu
RCtrl+[NUM]1 - throw
Good set of controls would be(for one player):
A & D - move left/right
W & S - aim up/down (crosshair would be neccesary), or move up/down when climbing wall(you cant aim then anyway... I think)
Q & E - next/previous clonk(or other character)
And now other controls, if you have larger hands you may want to shift these keys right by one.
C - fire/use
V - jump
X - Crouch/Lie down/Whatever similiar
F - zoom (move crosshair further and center screen on it. Would make chances of people w/o mouse bit larger). A/D zooms in/out
B - open menu
LShift+C - throw
There would not be secondary item throw/use, but that is not THIS important.
Hey... wait a moment... isnt German keyboard a bit different... hmmm... I once had german keyboard, nope, only symbols were at other places. Just dont tell me to modify PlayerControls.txt...
It does not work well, as you always throw left when not using mouse, you can only dig downward, and cant aim at all...
EDIT:
Example controls for second player:
Left / Right arrows - move L/R
Up / Down arrows - Aim up/down
[NUM]7 & [NUM]8 - next/previous clonk(or other character)
And now other controls, if you have larger hands you may want to shift these keys right by one.
[NUM]1 - fire/use
[NUM]2 - jump
[NUM]0 - Crouch/Lie down/Whatever similiar
[NUM]5 - zoom (move crosshair further and center screen on it. Would make chances of people w/o mouse bit larger), left/right zooms in/out
[NUM]3 - open menu
RCtrl+[NUM]1 - throw
![[ca]](/mwf/flags/ca.png "Canada")
This seems to take elements of Cortex Command which aren't even necessary for Clonk (ie: crouch, zoom), and remove ones which are necessary:>There would not be secondary item throw/use, but that is not THIS important.
Sure it is. Just because cortex command does not use 2 items at once is unimportant. For instance, Sword/Shield combo. :p
Also, I noticed you've taken the basically default keyboard controls for CC, and say they should be used for OpenClonk. OpenClonk has it's own unique control scheme and I see no reason to change it. If splitscreen is going to be kept (which would be cool), then it could use gamepads I suppose (cursor controlled by right stick or something). The Cortex Command control scheme is either slow or twitchy for keyboards; it wouldn't be as agile as a mouse, and so would imbalance player performance.
Well, I personally can beat easily someone using mouse with using only keyboard, I think, that crouch and zoom would be probably unnececary, You're right. Also not everybod have got and/or likes playing using gamepads. For it to work only implementing AimUp and AimDown controls would be neccesary, as well as modyfying throw/use to use direction of aiming instead of direction to mouse in keyboard only controls.
This would be easy enough to create (at least some portions). Just attach an object to every Clonk on initialization which is only visible to the specific owner when the Clonk is currently selected. The up-down controls would set the rotation of the reticle, and you would use a trigonometric function to return the X and Y coordinates based on the reticle's rotation and distance from the clonk.These X,Y coordinates would then be put into all the ControlUse*() commands when clicked. Of course you'd need to make a script which modifies the PlayerControl script for this, so it doesn't return the X,Y position of the mouse click.
The reason I'm saying this is because if someone makes this, it will become very clear it doesn't hold a bar to mouse control.
A control scheme without mouse is necessary for gamepad users anyway, though I don't think a keyboard-only player will be able to compete with a player using keyboard+mouse (as in CR).
I'm sure he will be able. Also this would be mainly used for split-screen games, and using mouse on split screen is not good, as it would make game unfair, and would be just not too comfortable.
This is completely dependant on the skill of the player. Mouse control is quite simply put, easier than keyboard control.
We plan to support multiple mice. Iirc, DirectInput can do this for Windows.
Imagine two or even more people sitting in front of same keyboard, each one with separate mouse... Yes... 'great' idea... btw. what about users or linux or mac os x? There is no DirectInput except in Wine, but it would be probably incredibly hard job to make OC communicate with Wine running DirectInput...
Using Wine on X11 to provide support for multiple mice is one of the most stupid ideas I have heard lately. Wine cannot magically provide support for multiple mice out of nowhere, it has to use the X server, and nothing prevents Clonk from doing the same.
This was only said about DirectInput, and yes - this is stupid. Yesterday I was so exhausted, that I did not think, that X server can support it as well...
![[fi]](/mwf/flags/fi.png "Finland")
X server has it's own ways for multiple mice. I have played World of Goo on Linux with two mice. It is also possible to use multiple mouse pointers generally on the window manager with the features provided by X11.
Sorry for double-posting :P
I personally like playing clonk on single computer with friend, or even few. Its true, that mouse gives big advantage, but using only keyboard does not neccesarily mean that this player is already lost. Also it would be quite easy to implement, and you are not gonna force anyone to not use mouse, so it does not affect anyone except those, who want to play with keyboard only...
Btw. wouldn't it be possible to use multiple keyboards instead? xD
Like mapping WSAD on second keyboard to UIOP for example and setting these as controls for second player.
I personally like playing clonk on single computer with friend, or even few. Its true, that mouse gives big advantage, but using only keyboard does not neccesarily mean that this player is already lost. Also it would be quite easy to implement, and you are not gonna force anyone to not use mouse, so it does not affect anyone except those, who want to play with keyboard only...
Btw. wouldn't it be possible to use multiple keyboards instead? xD
Like mapping WSAD on second keyboard to UIOP for example and setting these as controls for second player.
I have both of my hands on the keyboard. I think I can compete with most of the other players. (Sometimes, I experience the disadvantages, but for example I never lost a round of Instaforsak against an extensive mouse-using player, iirc.)
By Anonymous ![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
Date 2010-04-01 15:22
When I play Clonk, I always use only keyboard controls, and I find that the mouse is stupid and gets in my way.
You can create your own keyboard-only controls by editing the PlayerControls.txt in the System.c4g
By Anonymous
Date 2010-04-01 17:20
I think you should remember players like me who don't use the mouse.
By Anonymous ![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
Date 2012-12-19 12:31
This discussion seems to be already decided, but i think this development is a real pity.
The mouse-use kills the splitscreen and in imo the classic clonk were better controlled only by keyboard. But i do not want to criticize the existence of the mouse-control, only the non-existence of keyboard-control. Why cancelling a feature which would make more players happy?
The only advantage in the mouse-control should be in fights but in calm building/farm sessions (and many players prefere this) it's just unnecessary. Also I'd say, that a good deliberated keyboard-control could be competetive to mouse-control.
and here some real advantages of keyboard-only controls:
- more symmetric/straighter digging
- one hand free
- faster object change in the inventory
- usage of more than 2 actions with inventory-objects at a time (if i have a shovel, it'd be more simpel, to use one key to dig without changing to the shovel, also throwing things)
The mouse-use kills the splitscreen and in imo the classic clonk were better controlled only by keyboard. But i do not want to criticize the existence of the mouse-control, only the non-existence of keyboard-control. Why cancelling a feature which would make more players happy?
The only advantage in the mouse-control should be in fights but in calm building/farm sessions (and many players prefere this) it's just unnecessary. Also I'd say, that a good deliberated keyboard-control could be competetive to mouse-control.
and here some real advantages of keyboard-only controls:
- more symmetric/straighter digging
- one hand free
- faster object change in the inventory
- usage of more than 2 actions with inventory-objects at a time (if i have a shovel, it'd be more simpel, to use one key to dig without changing to the shovel, also throwing things)
Those points may be valid for someone who has a lot of experience in playing clonk with a keyboard, but they aren´t valid in general(for someone who is learning to play clonk from the scratch: switching and handling items is a LOT easier with the new controls.(Hands)
Controls are MUCH more precise than before.(Not only eight Directions and the jumping *.*)
Keyboard controls can NOT be competitive to mousecontrols at all, it just starts with the usability of the bow and moves on with the swords slash.
The digging is much easier than before and intuitive on top of that. And yes, one can easily dig a straight line.
The splitscreen: Thats one flaw, until there are working gamepad-controls.
Someone who is playing Clonk with the Openclonk controls is much more agile, effective and can act more intuitive than someone with the old controls.
If they have the same experience in general.
Why would someone change that? o.O
/Edit/
Furthermore: Dont compare the mousecontrol of Openclonk with Clonk Rages mousecontrols, they are a completely different concept.
Controls are MUCH more precise than before.(Not only eight Directions and the jumping *.*)
Keyboard controls can NOT be competitive to mousecontrols at all, it just starts with the usability of the bow and moves on with the swords slash.
The digging is much easier than before and intuitive on top of that. And yes, one can easily dig a straight line.
The splitscreen: Thats one flaw, until there are working gamepad-controls.
Someone who is playing Clonk with the Openclonk controls is much more agile, effective and can act more intuitive than someone with the old controls.
If they have the same experience in general.
Why would someone change that? o.O
/Edit/
Furthermore: Dont compare the mousecontrol of Openclonk with Clonk Rages mousecontrols, they are a completely different concept.
By Anonymous
Date 2012-12-19 14:39
thanx for the quick answer :)
yes, the classic Clonk Mouse Control was awful - the new one is much better and some things are over all solved better.
The competitiveness in fights i cant judge yet, but i think u know what u are talking about - the mouse probably makes precise controls faster.
But:
- The 8 directions of classic Clonk aren't the only option for only-keyboard: stageless aiming should be possible with keys either (yeah I know - someone would have to program this, but if this is the real reason for not implement this, why is nobody saying it?) - perhaps this could be competitive - nobody tried yet.
- The jumping has nothing to do with the mouse
- The usage/change of objects in the inventory are still more copious with the mouse - to press one key (or two) is easier for me, than clicking icons while i could do something else - and again u wouldn't have to copy the classic clonk controls
- also, getting things out of chests/houses/etc might be more intuitive with mouse but would surely be faster with keyboard
- and again: in no-fight scenarios mouse-control isnt that helpful
Intuitiveness is a great thing, but in a PC-Game only important in the learning process. As soon as I know the possibilities of a game, not the easy understandable, but the most effective controls are decisive.
So in conclusion the only advantage of implementing only the mouse control and no other option is that one can aim precise faster, which would be for many Players not important in the most Playtime. So, why not implementing both?
As I think about it. Why not make a hybrid control which allows to do everything only with the keyboard (which has advantages, as it makes some stuff much more effective) and to use the mouse if wanted or necessary because of an upcoming fight?
For split screen one could deactivate the mouse control - split screen delivers no competitive conditions anyway
PS:
Also I miss the automovement, but that's another point ;)
yes, the classic Clonk Mouse Control was awful - the new one is much better and some things are over all solved better.
The competitiveness in fights i cant judge yet, but i think u know what u are talking about - the mouse probably makes precise controls faster.
But:
- The 8 directions of classic Clonk aren't the only option for only-keyboard: stageless aiming should be possible with keys either (yeah I know - someone would have to program this, but if this is the real reason for not implement this, why is nobody saying it?) - perhaps this could be competitive - nobody tried yet.
- The jumping has nothing to do with the mouse
- The usage/change of objects in the inventory are still more copious with the mouse - to press one key (or two) is easier for me, than clicking icons while i could do something else - and again u wouldn't have to copy the classic clonk controls
- also, getting things out of chests/houses/etc might be more intuitive with mouse but would surely be faster with keyboard
- and again: in no-fight scenarios mouse-control isnt that helpful
Intuitiveness is a great thing, but in a PC-Game only important in the learning process. As soon as I know the possibilities of a game, not the easy understandable, but the most effective controls are decisive.
So in conclusion the only advantage of implementing only the mouse control and no other option is that one can aim precise faster, which would be for many Players not important in the most Playtime. So, why not implementing both?
As I think about it. Why not make a hybrid control which allows to do everything only with the keyboard (which has advantages, as it makes some stuff much more effective) and to use the mouse if wanted or necessary because of an upcoming fight?
For split screen one could deactivate the mouse control - split screen delivers no competitive conditions anyway
PS:
Also I miss the automovement, but that's another point ;)
I can see your motivation.
I don't know whether it's currently working, but have you tried the gamepad controls?In theory, one could easily create a control set that just maps all gamepad controls to the keyboard. But I don't think that aiming e.g. with the numpad is as precise as doing it with the gamepad stick.
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