as suggested by timi, since I had some ideas about a new combat system but I mixed them up with the general control system ideas, it is better to split them up here to see what people think about that
I would like to focus on the melee system, because the ranged one, implemented with the weapons, is more related to specific weapons and usage of objects.
The main purposes of my ideas are mainly two:
1)give more control to the player, avoiding the "getting stuck" in the automatic random melee combat system implemented right now
2)make the combat a bit more various and maybe more clever
The first point is related to what happens when two clonks, (or worse, MORE clonks) get close to each other: they start fighting automatically, even if one or both players didn't want to fight at all. Yes, you can try to run away pressing x and then run away, but a lot of times it can be confusionary, mostly when a lot of clonks are related
Related to this point, and dealing also with the second, is a little observation about how combat works right now: usually it is just a simple loop of
-run away if the enemy has more object than you
-dig free a random object
-go back to the enemy
-throw the object
-go to point 1
if you are lucky you can take advantage using some flint instead of gold stones, but usually it's just like this, as fast as you can.
now, I don't want to remove throwing object out of the combat system because I really like too in certain conditions. But I would like to make it a bit more "clever".
My idea is to not keep the "throwing object strategy" the BASE of the combat system, but instead having a new combat system based on other approaches, and making the throwing system an additional feature of this new system.
If you could attack an enemy in other ways than just running through the landscape looking for objects to throw, you would indirectly make the throwing object more fun:
-it would be less common to use it and less exploited
-it would be used mainly when it is CLEVER to use it: for example when one player has an elevation advantage over the other one (one player is over a mountain that the other wants to climb), or when one of the player is near to a lorry full of flints, or when one opponent can, throwing an object, making the other one fall down a pit, and so on...
So now the question is: how to change the base combat system?
Several approaches can be taken.
I propose mine, that, being in new in clonk, maybe won't immediatly suit to the gameplay you are used to, but you can propose other ones or correction to mine so we can maybe find a way to make everybody happy :)
I would like to have a system where the player has more control over the fight, without only using the thrown objects.
Probably this mean to abolish the automatic random melee system that there is now, and to implement a player-controlled one.
Now: clonk is not an action fast game (apart from additional packs like eke and hazard), so the new system should not translate in just a quick and fast clicking all over the landscape
So: player controlled system but not too frenetic and fast-paced. My idea is then a system where the better the timing a player use, the better his combat skill. For example using a sword or a shovel, you could have a swing using the left mouse button and with the right, depending on what system are used for controls (see control revised topic), you could have another type of attack or a defense move. These moves would not to be too quick to execute and to recharge (to not have click-fest gameplay that i hate), neither to slow to be always easy to avoid.. maybe as an idea, you could think about the swing of the two-word sword of metal and magic pack (as a basic idea, not as the solution). Different weapons could have different results related to damage, knockout/stun time, speed gained when you take a blow, and so on
In this way you could have more funny weapons to use in melee (right now axes, swords or similar are just the same to use), you could have more control over the clonk (you would not "get attached" to the enemy automatically, always being free to move), and you would keep the throwing system intact, but just for when it is really useful
Moreover, for nostalgic, you could keep the automatic random script for uncontrolled players (or substitute it with something else if you prefer the idea), but this has to be thought because there is to decide about what to do if a player-controlled clonk encounter a cpu-controlled clonk
anyway the idea is just a draft, let's collect some ideas :)
I would like useful comments: even if you don't like the idea please try to comment also about the first two points that I underlined, that are the main cause why I would like to change the actual system... thanks :)
I would like to focus on the melee system, because the ranged one, implemented with the weapons, is more related to specific weapons and usage of objects.
The main purposes of my ideas are mainly two:
1)give more control to the player, avoiding the "getting stuck" in the automatic random melee combat system implemented right now
2)make the combat a bit more various and maybe more clever
The first point is related to what happens when two clonks, (or worse, MORE clonks) get close to each other: they start fighting automatically, even if one or both players didn't want to fight at all. Yes, you can try to run away pressing x and then run away, but a lot of times it can be confusionary, mostly when a lot of clonks are related
Related to this point, and dealing also with the second, is a little observation about how combat works right now: usually it is just a simple loop of
-run away if the enemy has more object than you
-dig free a random object
-go back to the enemy
-throw the object
-go to point 1
if you are lucky you can take advantage using some flint instead of gold stones, but usually it's just like this, as fast as you can.
now, I don't want to remove throwing object out of the combat system because I really like too in certain conditions. But I would like to make it a bit more "clever".
My idea is to not keep the "throwing object strategy" the BASE of the combat system, but instead having a new combat system based on other approaches, and making the throwing system an additional feature of this new system.
If you could attack an enemy in other ways than just running through the landscape looking for objects to throw, you would indirectly make the throwing object more fun:
-it would be less common to use it and less exploited
-it would be used mainly when it is CLEVER to use it: for example when one player has an elevation advantage over the other one (one player is over a mountain that the other wants to climb), or when one of the player is near to a lorry full of flints, or when one opponent can, throwing an object, making the other one fall down a pit, and so on...
So now the question is: how to change the base combat system?
Several approaches can be taken.
I propose mine, that, being in new in clonk, maybe won't immediatly suit to the gameplay you are used to, but you can propose other ones or correction to mine so we can maybe find a way to make everybody happy :)
I would like to have a system where the player has more control over the fight, without only using the thrown objects.
Probably this mean to abolish the automatic random melee system that there is now, and to implement a player-controlled one.
Now: clonk is not an action fast game (apart from additional packs like eke and hazard), so the new system should not translate in just a quick and fast clicking all over the landscape
So: player controlled system but not too frenetic and fast-paced. My idea is then a system where the better the timing a player use, the better his combat skill. For example using a sword or a shovel, you could have a swing using the left mouse button and with the right, depending on what system are used for controls (see control revised topic), you could have another type of attack or a defense move. These moves would not to be too quick to execute and to recharge (to not have click-fest gameplay that i hate), neither to slow to be always easy to avoid.. maybe as an idea, you could think about the swing of the two-word sword of metal and magic pack (as a basic idea, not as the solution). Different weapons could have different results related to damage, knockout/stun time, speed gained when you take a blow, and so on
In this way you could have more funny weapons to use in melee (right now axes, swords or similar are just the same to use), you could have more control over the clonk (you would not "get attached" to the enemy automatically, always being free to move), and you would keep the throwing system intact, but just for when it is really useful
Moreover, for nostalgic, you could keep the automatic random script for uncontrolled players (or substitute it with something else if you prefer the idea), but this has to be thought because there is to decide about what to do if a player-controlled clonk encounter a cpu-controlled clonk
anyway the idea is just a draft, let's collect some ideas :)
I would like useful comments: even if you don't like the idea please try to comment also about the first two points that I underlined, that are the main cause why I would like to change the actual system... thanks :)
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
In my opinion, the biggest advantage of the "old" system is, that you can devense hohles for example by just standing in the entrance with your sword. So the enemy can't get (easily) through your devensed way. So if the Player can controll the fight, the enemy wouldn't fight with you, but instead, running trough you to get into the hohle. And i dislike the idea, that you need to click how you will attack. Imagine the situation, if you have a fight 5 vs 5 like in classic melees. In this situation, where you can send your clonks to attack the enemy automatically, you can't because you need to give every Clonk his own commanda with a click.
But i like the idea, that more weapons should be used. So the clonk can use his shovel/axe/hammer to attack his enemy in a 1 vs 1 Situation. This would need more graphics. I would like if the clonk can not attack only, but also devensiv himself by a shield of something like that. So before a knight hits a knight with his sword, there should be a swordfight, were iron hits on iron, and axes destroy shields (or something like that.) So the knight would clever combine his random attacks, which the enemy hit or not. And also the strongness of a hit musst increase. Now you need severall axestrikes to damage an enemy. In this system, it would take the same time to kill an enemy but it would be more realistic.
But i like the idea, that more weapons should be used. So the clonk can use his shovel/axe/hammer to attack his enemy in a 1 vs 1 Situation. This would need more graphics. I would like if the clonk can not attack only, but also devensiv himself by a shield of something like that. So before a knight hits a knight with his sword, there should be a swordfight, were iron hits on iron, and axes destroy shields (or something like that.) So the knight would clever combine his random attacks, which the enemy hit or not. And also the strongness of a hit musst increase. Now you need severall axestrikes to damage an enemy. In this system, it would take the same time to kill an enemy but it would be more realistic.
I didn't really get what you mean about the hole (i guess)... can you explain a bit better?
As i said for more clonks the system needs some other ideas, like keeping the old system active when clonks are not directly used by the player or something else
Instead I think that a completely physics enabled-system like the one you describe is a bit far away to realize.. The only decent implementation I ever saw is in mount and blade and it is very very complicated to implement, mostly on a 2d game like clonk that also has to implement thousands of other things
As i said for more clonks the system needs some other ideas, like keeping the old system active when clonks are not directly used by the player or something else
Instead I think that a completely physics enabled-system like the one you describe is a bit far away to realize.. The only decent implementation I ever saw is in mount and blade and it is very very complicated to implement, mostly on a 2d game like clonk that also has to implement thousands of other things
If a clonk stands as a guard in the hole, where you can't jump over him, you are not able to get behind him, because your clonk will start a fight with him. In this system, you can devend (small) entrances (like hohles) by just having a clonk there, who does not let the opossing clonk through.
A similiar situation is, when you have a clonk standing on the edge of a tower for example (where the merlon [Zinne?] is). So if you enemy tries to climb up the tower, your clonk will kick him away by fighting. Else the opponent would be able to climb up and to go "through" you.
A similiar situation is, when you have a clonk standing on the edge of a tower for example (where the merlon [Zinne?] is). So if you enemy tries to climb up the tower, your clonk will kick him away by fighting. Else the opponent would be able to climb up and to go "through" you.
![[es]](/mwf/flags/es.png "Spain")
Regarding the blocking the entrance: Caedes (regrettably still not released yet) solves it like this: You can't move beyond enemy clonks, the own clonk just stops in front of him. It's like a solid mask. So you need to jump over him or something.
Okay, you mentioned the M&M sword. What about keeping the old fighting system (for players controlling another clonk or for blocking passages) AND adding "specialattacks" to each weapon as it is done with the two-handed-sword in M&M (remember: you can strike on keypress (even in the air); after a short swing the sword hits the ground and nearby objects are damaged). That would add more tactic to armed fights (Sword, Axe) where each item could get a different attack (sword: short delay, fast strike; axe: two-handed-sword-like blow; slow but damaging) and players fighting with those weapons would not really even want to get to close combat. So it would really, really weaken the bow and throwing stuff as "haha, i win"-equipment while putting more effort in close combats (are you going to take the axe or the flint now, mhh?) PS: (and still being fun and hectic - better than some attack/dodge keys for the infight)
sorry guys, probably I am tired tonight, but I really can't understand exactly your posts :p
I didn't get if you like or not the idea: I understood you propose a special attack per each weapon (could be cool, but you should see if it will be compatible with the controls revised of the other topic ;). I dind't understand anyway if you want to implement this special attack inside my idea or in the old system : in fact you say
so I can't understand if you want to keep the old system or only for certain clonks (do you mean clonks that are not directly controlled by the player?).
Anyway yes, the point is that if you have a bow you should really try to use it cleverly, keeping distance between you and the enemy. Instead if you have a sword it is worthy use it instead of looking for flint to throw (or even worse, throw the sword to the opponent as sometimes happen too :p ). Now that (maybe) each clonk can use each object, a system like that could be more acceptable then before (when with a normal clonk against a knight or a mage you could just throw stuff because you couldn't have other chances)
I didn't get if you like or not the idea: I understood you propose a special attack per each weapon (could be cool, but you should see if it will be compatible with the controls revised of the other topic ;). I dind't understand anyway if you want to implement this special attack inside my idea or in the old system : in fact you say
> What about keeping the old fighting system (for players controlling another clonk or for blocking passages)
so I can't understand if you want to keep the old system or only for certain clonks (do you mean clonks that are not directly controlled by the player?).
Anyway yes, the point is that if you have a bow you should really try to use it cleverly, keeping distance between you and the enemy. Instead if you have a sword it is worthy use it instead of looking for flint to throw (or even worse, throw the sword to the opponent as sometimes happen too :p ). Now that (maybe) each clonk can use each object, a system like that could be more acceptable then before (when with a normal clonk against a knight or a mage you could just throw stuff because you couldn't have other chances)
>so I can't understand if you want to keep the old system or only for certain clonks (do you mean clonks that are not directly controlled by the player?).
I want to keep the old system more or less just as it is right now (mh, actually just to have a support for blocking and afk-players... other ideas?).
Additionally I want to add attacks to weapons so that you would rather use those attacks than to attack in the "normal" way.
F.e. If you carry a Two-Handed-M&M-Sword right now you would rather use the striking attack of the sword than start a close combat (while you still COULD do that, if you're going to controll another clonk or something)
So would only Sword/Axe have "Special-attacks" or also the "normal" clonkweapons such as the axe for treechopping, or the shovel?
>or also the "normal" clonkweapons such as the axe for treechopping, or the shovel?
Well, the system would not be limited to two weapons of course
Well you only can have one "activated". My mainquestion was, if the should/axe should have a special-attack, such one as the MM-two-handed-sword.
This would make the fistfight useless, because every clonk has equiped a weapon. Also no Sword/Knightaxe is needed, because the clonktools would have their own special-attack
This would make the fistfight useless, because every clonk has equiped a weapon. Also no Sword/Knightaxe is needed, because the clonktools would have their own special-attack
>because every clonk has equiped a weapon.
"Equipped"? You mean "every clonk has to waste one inventory slot and maybe leave the bred at home"? I think it will still be a tough decision wether you take a Swort/Axe or a Teraflint or whatever with you
>Also no Sword/Knightaxe is needed, because the clonktools would have their own special-attack
Okay, first the axe: Why should there be a difference between the normal axe and the knight's axe?
And the clonktools. IF every clonk has a built-in "specialweapon", it could be a lot weaker than the expensive ones. So the sword could still be more powerful than the shovel (or whatever) (and you would still like to bring a sword instead of a shovel to the battlefield)
Phew, pretty long post for basically just- Eliminate automatic fist-fight
- Emphasize manual fighting with items like swords, shields, magic staffs etc.
But yes, I agree. The automatic fist-fight is not used (anymore) and just irritates the players.
sorry for the long post
I did it so long only because I already received some bad comments about the idea, so i wanted to explain my reasons in a explicit way :9
maybe too explicit :)
I did it so long only because I already received some bad comments about the idea, so i wanted to explain my reasons in a explicit way :9
maybe too explicit :)
![[se]](/mwf/flags/se.png "Sweden")
I agree that some kind of improvement on the fighting system would be nice. However I don't like the idea to implement something that makes it a requirement to use the mouse. IMO it is really nice that clonk doesn't need the mouse. You can play mire chilly then. Also multiplayer on just one computer is possible. I don't see why the system you are talking about should need the button on the mouse. Why not on the keyboard? ^^
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