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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Some feedback and questions.
- - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 14:13
This is Rip, I was here a very long time ago asking about settlement mode, but since then I haven't done much here.

Recently, I had nothing to do and I remembered CE. I went and downloaded it, and spent a few days re-making my old custom scenarios. I played for a while, then I remembered OC and came to check on the development. I saw that settlement mode was out in the snapshots, and instantly went to download it and try it out. I was not disappointed! Incredible work, guys! It feels like clonk, yet a whole entire new game. Nearly everything I see so far is amazingly well done, but I have some feedback.

First of all, on mining. It's a bit difficult right now; sometime the flints just don't go were you want to, dynamite won't let you mine upwards, and the dynamite boxes are too expensive to be useful. Pickaxes are great, but they're a bit slow and difficult to use effectively. I find my clonk swinging his pick at the air almost as much as he actually hits the ores. Why can't we construct flintstones (or firestones, as they're now called)? It was a good part of the old clonks. What about constructing superflints and teraflints? Those made mining much easier and faster for a price. I would really like flint construction and upgrading added to OC as it was in the classics. If not, at least let us buy flints. They are extremely limited right now, and I find myself utterly destroying the landscape trying to obtain new ones!

Secondly, I can't seem to purchase or sell anything at all. I just can't figure it out, is it even in-game yet? If so, can someone tell me how?

Third; I love how you made it so you have to press down to pick up an item, but I don't like that it auto-pickups items in an empty hand slot. I'd rather have to do that on my own.

And finally, is there going to be a simple developer mode like in CR/CE? I don't know how to program, but I could at least make scenarios in the classsics via the developer mode. I really like that.

That's all for now, I'll have more though. Keep up the amazing work, I love OC so far!
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-06 15:02

>Secondly, I can't seem to purchase or sell anything at all. I just can't figure it out, is it even in-game yet? If so, can someone tell me how?


Buying and selling like in CR will probably not be in the game again, since we decided that in CR it dulled the game a bit, since you could do anything with gold (there will be at least a good replacement, though)

>First of all, on mining. It's a bit difficult right now; sometime the flints just don't go were you want to, dynamite won't let you mine upwards


That mining with explosives is not satisfying enough is something I feel too
(however, you can plant fused dynamite into the ceiling!)

>I'd rather have to do that on my own


Mh, how? By pressing down+click? That would interfere with using items I think - we would probably need a longer key combo. Is that worth it?

>And finally, is there going to be a simple developer mode like in CR/CE?


Do you mean the possibility to draw maps or the various GUI options like setting the starting material etc.?
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 17:16

>Buying and selling like in CR will probably not be in the game again, since we decided that in CR it dulled the game a bit, since you could do anything with gold (there will be at least a good replacement, though)


I'd personally like a merchant NPC that only sells certain items at certain points of day/night/weather, whatever else. Just brainstorming.

>That mining with explosives is not satisfying enough is something I feel too
>(however, you can plant fused dynamite into the ceiling!)


I found that out about dynamite; before I was just tossing it (thinking it would stick). I'm a bit more happy with dynamite, but I still find myself mis-tossing it on occasion and blowing myself to smithereens. It should at least be a bit more controlled...

>Mh, how? By pressing down+click? That would interfere with using items I think - we would probably need a longer key combo. Is that worth it?


Actually, I'm fine with pressing down to pick up items. What I meant was that it automatically picks up items into your hand slot if it's empty, even if you don't press down. I'd like to have to press down to even pick up items into my hand.

>Do you mean the possibility to draw maps or the various GUI options like setting the starting material etc.?


Yeah, exactly.

________________________

>As Zapper said, that is wrong. Try fusing the dynamite while scaling or hangling and you can put it (another click) inside the wall.


Yeah, I see. But like I said above I'd like a bit more control over dynamite so I don't misplace and/or accidentally toss it.

>Yes, that intended. Flints are weird. I'd rather have more other explosives.


What I really want is a dynamite type that explodes on contact, and works pretty much exactly like flints. Not particularly dynamite, anything would be awesome.

>I started to recreate the old developer GUI. Look here: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=18843#pid18843


That looks incredible! Thanks!

More on flints; You can't set them down. When I tried, it dropped just a miniscule amount and blew up all of my growing trees, and killed one of my clonks. Not ideal. Flints are very sketchy and sensitive right now, they really need adjusted.
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-06 18:11

> But like I said above I'd like a bit more control over dynamite so I don't misplace and/or accidentally toss it.


Yeah, maybe that would be better. But on the other hand, dynamite is a throw-away object. Not every sticks counts so occasional misplacements are okay, imho.

> a dynamite type that explodes on contact


Good point, yes. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

> When I tried, it dropped just a miniscule amount and blew up all of my growing trees


Yeah, that's an old problem in Clonk. I have an idea though. I'll see to that.

Oh and btw don't hesitate to make two seperate answers if you're answering two posts. It helps to keep track ;)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-06-06 19:42

> I have an idea though. I'll see to that.


Change the speed at which an object is OCF_HitSpeed?
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-06 20:04
More like change Flint to explode on Hit2()
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2012-06-06 20:11
More like calculate the speed in Hit from the parameters and fine-tune it.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-06 20:17
Well, that would be weird!
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 20:07

>...dynamite is a throw-away object. Not every sticks counts so occasional misplacements are okay, imho.


Not quite okay when you accidentally throw it at a funny angle and it blows up your last standing clonk. I'm more concerned about the damage it may cause to clonks and the terrain.

>Oh and btw don't hesitate to make two seperate answers if you're answering two posts. It helps to keep track ;)


Okay, I wasn't certain as making several posts is frowned upon on most forums.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-06 20:09

>Okay, I wasn't certain as making several posts is frowned upon on most forums.


Because most forums are inferior to us because they don't use the marvelous tree structure!
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-06 20:59
Mining is a dangerous business. Don't have your last clonks standing around where you blow up stuff ;)
But I see how this might end in frustation when it happens because of fiddly controls.
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Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 00:24
Well, when the clonk who throws it accidentally blocks himself in between a rock and a explosive place, there's not much of a choice of where to stand... Although the fuse is typically long enough to escape, I'd like a more controlled explosive - like the 5 sticks in a box, acting the exact same way, but with only one stick and instead of a fuse box, just a regular old fuse that you light. (A long one in the form of a burning down, sparking line - Like the 5 sticks in a box.)
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2012-06-07 11:01
Unfortunately, such an item has not yet been invented by the clonks.
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 13:38
Why not? They already have the technology. It's exactly the same as the 5 sticks in a box, just only has one. I don't see how they wouldn't have such an item.
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2012-06-07 13:39
Dunno. Ask them!
Parent - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 13:54
Alright, I'll go ask my clonk. I'll be back on what he says ;)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-06-07 17:03
Wouldn't that be the same thing as the normal dynamite bar? Only with a longer fuse?
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 17:22
Yeah, but it could be initiated from a distance so you can be certain it's placed exactly where you want, thus removing the hustle of trying to get out of the way before the hand fuse of the dynamite we use now burns out. That gives people a cheaper, slightly less precise version (the current dynamite) or a more accurate, safer, but slightly more expensive version (the dynamite I'm talking about)
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2012-06-08 16:26
Some kind of mega-dynamite? Fair enough, why not.

Do you know a bit of C4Script? You could add that to the game yourself. Much of the behaviour you could copy from the dynamite bar(s).
Parent - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-08 17:32
I don't, but I will learn soon.
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-06-08 20:09
I'd prefer a wonky, kludgy explosion-thingie over "just a bigger dynamite bar" though. Would catch the feel of what we're trying to achieve better, I think. :3
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-08 20:11
You mean like...the powder keg? ;) Why invent something new if we already have what we need?
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Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-09 02:15
That's not what I was suggesting at all, I was just suggesting an item identical to the 5 sticks in every way, except with only one.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-09 07:55
Mh, for example the (existing) powder keg (like Clonkonaut said) and add the possibility to connect/use a fuse?
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-06-09 18:05
Can't stick a powder keg into the ceiling though. Plus it would be two objects then.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-06 15:40

> dynamite won't let you mine upwards


As Zapper said, that is wrong. Try fusing the dynamite while scaling or hangling and you can put it (another click) inside the wall.

> They are extremely limited right now


Yes, that intended. Flints are weird. I'd rather have more other explosives.

> And finally, is there going to be a simple developer mode like in CR/CE? I don't know how to program, but I could at least make scenarios in the classsics via the developer mode. I really like that.


I started to recreate the old developer GUI. Look here: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=18843#pid18843
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-06-06 19:32

>Third; I love how you made it so you have to press down to pick up an item, but I don't like that it auto-pickups items in an empty hand slot. I'd rather have to do that on my own.


As the guy who reworked the inventory and is (or rather should be working on. Damn you time/motivation.) working on the Controls I already had a change planned but forgot it :(
In testgames it came up that situational auto-pickup feels weird, but people really liked the "press direction to pick up" (which sadly wasn't implemented by me. Props to whoever did it). So I planned on beeing able to HOLD the down key to pick up. What'd you say to that?
Another suboptimal thing is the auto-inventory-slot-change when throwing unusable stuff (that the clonk switches to the next inventory slot, when you throw a flint/stone/wood/... away). How did you experience that? Feedback please. :)

> sometime the flints just don't go were you want to


Yeah, I have problems hitting where I want to hit too, when throwing stuff. But I can't put my finger on WHAT exactly is off. I suspect it's either some offset in the angle or the exit-point of the object. :/
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-06-06 19:45

> I suspect it's either some offset in the angle or the exit-point of the object. :/


Is there a throw-delay?
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 20:03

>Another suboptimal thing is the auto-inventory-slot-change when throwing unusable stuff. How did you experience that? Feedback please. :)


I really like it! It makes clearing the inventory much easier and faster. However, it only goes downwards, so you have to click back up to the top one to continue throwing them. I think it should loop back around to the next non-tool item.

>Yeah, I have problems hitting where I want to hit too, when throwing stuff. But I can't put my finger on WHAT exactly is off. I suspect it's either some offset in the angle or the exit-point of the object. :/


What I would love to see is a trajectory path. Maybe a white translucent line or a dotted line or something. I have no idea if this could be coded or would be to hard or what, but I'd like to see it.
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-06-06 20:07

>I really like it! It makes clearing the inventory much easier and faster.


That's it purpose. It worked really well in all the other Clonk-Titles. I just "emulated' the behaviour. ;)

> However, it only goes downwards, so you have to click back up to the top one to continue throwing them. I think it should look back around to the next non-tool item.


Therefore suboptimal. At the moment there is no way to find out if an object is a tool or not. I'd really like to give the player the power to just say if he wants to auto-switch or not. At the moment throwing with Shift doesn't auto-switch, however you sometimes(often?) also want to throw stuff like Metal. I really don't want to add another key to throwing. ;)
Sadly I haven't found a solution for that problem yet. :/
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 00:26
I think you should leave everything as-is mostly. Is it possible to assign a new variable to an item, something like a boolean "tool" value?
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-07 08:04

>something like a boolean "tool" value?


But when is a tool a tool?
Let's say you want to quickly throw away all the useless stuff you brought from your mine (some rocks, coal, maybe a mushroom?).
Would you want to throw away the loam too? Is loam a tool?
Is a mushroom a tool - or a wire roll?
Is everything a tool that reacts on mouse click?
Introducing too detailed behaviour to every object might lead to it only becoming confusing for the player (when is something a tool? Why could I throw my valuable mushroom but not my stupid shovel? Is a flint a tool?).

One idea would be saying: "You can auto-throw all in-earth materials" (rocks, coal, flints(?), loam(?)) - but I am not quite sure how I feel about that.

Another approach would be that you always only auto-switch to another objects of the same type - that is: when you are throwing away your rocks, you can do it in succession. When you are throwing away your flints, you can throw them all after each other.
But when you throw away your ten swords, you can do the same.
Parent - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 13:40
I understand now. I was thinking that just the four (more in the future) items with wooden handles and metal heads (plus weapons maybe) would be tools, but now I see what you mean here. I guess it's fine how it is.
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Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 20:36 Edited 2012-06-06 20:38
I have some more ideas for the game...

First of all, I'd like at least another appearance. Or maybe someone could make a custom one (I can't as I can do 2D artwork, but I havn't the slightest on 3D modeling) which has some sort of face mask over his lower face, such as a bandana or whatnot. Possibly some other explorer/adventurer/bandit style look, such as this concept artwork;



Also, on the subject of bandits... This might not fit in with clonk, but it would be spectacular.

We already have (at least a simple) AI for the melee tutorial level. Why not incorporate bandits, raiders, or just standard people who want to kill you to a special scenario or game mode? They might only appear after X days to give the player enough time to make an armory and some weaponry, or at least buy some. What I'm thinking is they just run in from the side of the screen, use simple AI to find you, and start to attack. This makes a need for players to be aware of their surroundings and more alert, as well as add more action and excitement.

Of course, as I said, this should only be a certain scenario or gamemode, not in any current ones or anything. This is just something I would absolutely love, and would give me countless hours of playtime.
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Parent - - By Eleutherotes [de] Date 2012-06-06 20:40 Edited 2012-06-06 20:49

>Of course, as I said, this should only be a certain scenario or gamemode, not in any current ones or anything


As I heard, there is even an adventure mode planned ;) (edit: but however, not in the near future. Finishing settlement is far more important). The bandits would fit there imo.
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Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-06 21:09

>As I heard, there is even an adventure mode planned ;)


Awesome, any more info on that? (Forum topic, design doc etc.)

But I'd like a mode just like settlement, but with enemies you must keep mind of while you mine and build.
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-06 21:11

> Awesome, any more info on that? (Forum topic, design doc etc.)


No not yet. I want to finish settlement first, before releasing any secret thoughts.

> But I'd like a mode just like settlement, but with enemies


That more like pure settlement but a well designed scenario ;)
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-06-06 22:08
Don't confuse "talking about ideas" with "planned" :P
Parent - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 00:27
But it's a good idea :P  I really hope to see an adventure mode... Something like CR Dragon Rock perhaps?
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-06 22:40

>What I'm thinking is they just run in from the side of the screen, use simple AI to find you, and start to attack. This makes a need for players to be aware of their surroundings and more alert, as well as add more action and excitement.


I am working on certain stuff to make "free settlement scenarios" (as I call them, at least) more interesting - even over longer time!
One small hint might be found in the scenario I created as my submission to the latest CR contest (not yet evaluated) ;)
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 00:35

>...to make "free settlement scenarios" more interesting - even over longer time!


Well, in CE (I don't have a CR key) I've always loved settlement because I can just keep building my colony, keep making money, and keep expanding my mine. Mining in older clonks was probably one of my favorite things (Besides melees in a custom castle-building map) because of the whole concept of it. I OC, it's lacking many aspects that made it fun before... I can't put my finger on it, but once I do I'll point it out to hopefully have the mining experience boosted.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-06-07 08:07

>I OC, it's lacking many aspects that made it fun before... I can't put my finger on it, but once I do I'll point it out to hopefully have the mining experience boosted.


Yes, the whole ressource-gathering lacks some wit right now. Might be because you can mine easier and more controlled (aiming while throwing, dynamite) - might also be because you mine slower now (usually only flints, pickaxe, dynamite).
Imo we need more boom - especially more fun, dangerous boom.
Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 13:53
In the original clonks, using a flint was a fairly cheap, slightly slow solution to mining. It took away chunks of 2-5 gold at a time for you to bring back, and usually players (I) took 5 or so into the mine at a time. However, sometimes the small flints blasted odd shapes in the gold that were very difficult to maneuver and especially, pull a lorry over. This made using super flints a better alternative, once you have built a chemical plant. It blasted a large, clean circle, and knocked loose anywhere from 6-20 gold chunks. It was easier to maneuver with both clonks and a lorry alike, but required another building and a bit more time to dig up sulphur to make them - but in the end was worth it.

With teraflints, it was another story. Not only did they have a much larger sulphur:explosion ratio (Instead of 1>1>1, it was 1>1>3 for progression) but they made a very, very huge explosion. It usually took no more than 3 of them to clear a semi-decent sized vein of gold if well placed. The thing is, they were much, much more dangerous if thrown by hand, because of the massive radius. If using a catapult, it was easier to mine but still a bit unpredictable, and I found myself running "test throws" with a rock before wasting my more valuable teraflint for fear I just might blast a hole in the dirt. I typically settled on the more expensive cannons to fire my teraflints because of how controlled it was (and because it felt epic to do. Blasting a massive explode-on-contact object at a wall, knocking loose 30+ gold was an amazing feeling)

That wasn't saying anything in particular, just hoping to inspire myself or others as to what the game is lacking from my perspective. I still am not quite sure though.

Oh yes, and right now I believe the size of the ore/gold veins is SEVERELY lacking. Honestly, that's what I loved about the old clonks! The veins were large enough to make setting up a tent base or even a wooden cabin actually worth it sometimes. If you came across oil with your elevator, making a base by a large ore vein was even better because you could sell the oil as you mined.

So I propose gold and ore veins are much larger, maybe 2-3 times their current size. I'm just not getting a good mining experience when the gold is so limited; I hate having to possibly make a whole new elevator, flag, and windmill just to move to a different area of gold. I know I don't have to do that, but to efficiently mine it's necessary.
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-07 14:01
All these are totally valid points. Except maybe for the size of the veins. At least GoldRush is more of a tech demo and a testing scenario for devs for any changes to the settlements progress. Apart from that, the goal is extremely boring so I don't know if investing more time into improving the landscape will pay out.

Hopefully, the rest of your arguments will be covered by future content development: More explosives, possibility to construct vehicles (both planned).
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Parent - - By RipClaw [us] Date 2012-06-07 14:14 Edited 2012-06-07 14:17
Not just in the goldrush scenario, but in all scenarios in which mining is important. I just think the veins are too small to make a mining outpost, which is one thing I really loved before. Also, right now the veins are too thin to make the future bigger explosives useful.

And I've realized another thing I miss about clonk. No matter how you liked to play, you could still make money. You could finish many scenarios without ever stepping in the underground. For instance, cutting trees for money was great way to do it. Not as effective as mining gold, but it was there. You could also mine and smelt metal. You could even just make flints for living. In fact, if animal breeding was enabled, you could even literally farm monster eggs for money! Fishing (with your hands) was always an option, as was even selling acid. The amount of ways you could get money were as endless as you wanted to make them.

However, in OC there is one way to get money, and one way only. Mining gold. I wish for the same money-making freedom we had before. I understand how many, many things are missing (selling, for instance.) so this isn't possible right at the moment, but is this something you have planned? Many more ways to make money in the clonk world?
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-06-07 14:41
No, making money is not planned like that. It's planned to keep it at selling gold and maybe a few other rare materials.
None of us liked the role money played in past titles. Because once you got enough money in any settlement game, you basically won it. Everything was available, given enough money. And making money was easy as you said. You could sell anything to increase your "bypass every hurdle" value. Trade wood for metal, metal for wood, coal for flints and so on. One big vein of gold is enough to make you independent from any further need of acquiring raw material.
What we want instead is to encourage people to get the resources from the landscape. Need wood? Cut trees. Need metal? Mine ore and coal.
There will be money and there will be buying stuff but through pricing and limiting the amount of sellable objects, this option will be discouraged. It's a last resort option.

If you want to experience the thrill in that, try playing Seven Keys from CR. The sellable objects are limited and thus the task of making money becomes harder. It's often better to mine the objects you need than buying them except when you only need a very small amount of them. And this is the whole point of settlement. Not "mine gold and ignore the rest" ;)
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Parent - Date 2012-06-07 16:03
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Some feedback and questions.

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