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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Conquer the Deep!
- By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 13:44
With the settlement well on its way and about to get some more development, I took my time today on the train to fantasise. Take this thread as part conceptual and part inspiration. I am (at least not yet) not so fond of starting such a huge new things with parts of the settlement unfinished and surely unpolished. Also with the graphical change ongoing, there is much happening right now.

Nonetheless, I will play out in detail my thoughts on what could be achieved with water. It all started about two or one and a half years ago when I was laying out the concepts of the settlement when someday I made this page:

...but then decided to dump it away until settlement's done. A week or two ago some people on IRC were talking about submarines and so on, so I fetched this sheet and scanned it. But Matthi wasn't content and said to me that I either come up with a lot of ideas and coherent concepts or be gone. Well, that's what I tried to do, at least for a beginning.

First things first: Adventures into the deep sea require a solid base. A ready supply of power is mandatory! Keep in mind that from time to time your base will be without maintenance, so power stations should work on their own for a certain time.

Next, build your pumps! We already have pumps that do pump air into water, right? Well, deep sea equipment is often air powered, as well as your clonks! The generated power gets converted into air and then pumped deep down below where we need it. Diving into the deep should be about spreading your air network.
- - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 13:44
I'll get into the details now: Items first!

The diving helmet is the standard equipment, allowing your clonk to breath underwater. Simply connect it to the air pipe of a pump and you can enjoy your trip into the blue. I haven't put much thought into how this kind of equipment would be handled gameplay-wise. At a first glance, I'd like if there wasn't any kind of "equipping" mechanic (with another menu or so) but just have it easy: Having a helmet in your inventory makes it available (display on the clonk).
Same goes for shoes:

These could be tricky. Idea is that wearing those makes your clonk heavier, effectively sinking faster. Swimming gets harder. Standing on the ocean ground will be possible with these.

Light-weighted and simple equipment: Makes you swim faster! Are kind of expensive - rubber things probably need oil for production?

Quickly drawn, handy in every underwater situation! Very short stabbing range, kind of last resort or helpful to cut free from anything. I just don't see clonks handling a sword underwater.

Man the harpoons! Standard weaponry, versatile and deadly. Obviously like the spear but made from pure metal, so it keeps its momentum when thrown into water. Bonus feature could be the rope dangling from the eye at the back of the harpoon for quickly retrieving the harpoon (hopefully with a fish attached). Comes in bigger packs, so you can scatter them around.
Throwing them is a good thing but you get more punch when shooting!

The underwater musket! Air-driven! I must probably elaborate: The idea is that the "muzzle" is a pipe. The pressure tank on the back gets filled with air and when the trigger is pulled, the air is released into the pipe, moving the "driver" forward. The harpoon is attached to it and so gets fired. The air will pour out backwards, from the exhaust. Of course, in water you can't fire powder but compressed air is at hand. The harpoon slinger is easily reloaded in the air but deep down you need an air supply (pipe, probably attached onto your helmet). If you haven't one, you get only one shot from your slinger. Better make it count!

The trident is more like a starting equipment. Lightweighted wood (or bone?), sharp tips like needles. Usually thrown from the shore into the water to impale a fish that got too close. Remember the scene from Cast Away:

This is more sophisticated and again very versatile. Combine the (basic and more or less useless) fishnet with wood and pluck it into the water to catch fish (but a bait into it, to make it more attractive). Combine it with rocks and you got your throwing net. Attach it to your boat and it gets a nasty dragnet.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-02 14:21
How much would you restrict the Clonk under water?
For example, would you forbid to use a bow or a normal musket? How would you do that and how would you communicate that to the player?
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 14:23
Well, if the player doesn't come to that revelation by pure reason, what about simply not being able to use them? ;) Like, nothing happens when trying to fire a bow or musket underwater.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-02 14:30
idk, wouldn't it be cooler if the stuff /worked/ but would be a lot less efficient? For example, the arrows could lose their power very fast and have a more uncontrolled trajectory. And the musket's bullet could lose its power pretty quickly, too (like it happens IRL when you shoot INTO water).

I wouldn't worry about the realism aspect too much ("omg but gunpowder no werk"), but rather see that as an opportunity! We would create a lot of new items - wouldn't it be cool if they could also be used on land and vice-versa? (with their respective drawbacks, of course). Then we would suddenly have twice the items for the players to fool around with instead of just copy&pasting the same items with an underwater skin and for exclusive use in the depths..
Parent - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-02 14:39
I personally think that you should not be able to use bows or muskets underwater, but I like the idea of being able to shoot into the water with a reduced affect.

As for realism I think it should at least be somewhat believable.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 20:24
I see where you're pointing at. Good idea, yes. The knife is of course no match for a sword and the heavy harpoon aren't that elegant when thrown through air! They're not made to fly in a curve like the spear with its head-heavy design.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-03 16:31

>The knife is of course no match for a sword and the heavy harpoon aren't that elegant when thrown through air! They're not made to fly in a curve like the spear with its head-heavy design.

For example, the knife could be a lot weaker than the sword but not stop the Clonk's movement (like the sword does) - but I am not for disallowing stuff just because we feel like it :)
Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2013-11-02 17:13
"Nothing happens" is the unix way of telling you that maybe everything is alright - And it is not a good idea to solely rely on this in my opinion. When swimming in water, the player should at least be able to see that he can't use the musket per design, and not because he is out of bullets or it's still reloading or whatever reasons other items might have to cease function. See here.
Parent - - By Pyrit Date 2013-11-02 19:19
I think the player should always be able to use them. It's kind of funny to use stuff that isn't intended for use under water under water.
Parent - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-02 20:18
We could have flying clonks if we were going for funny, but as I said it needs to at least be somewhat believable.
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2013-11-02 21:13
I'm on Pyrit's and Zappers's side here. At least bows should work.
Not so sure about muskets though, I think they shouldn't work (maybe make a click sound as in shooters when you are out of ammo), also, if muskets worked, there would be no need for harpoons, which are, as you said, underwater muskets.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 22:24
I'm in favour of Zapper's suggestion: Having both, musket and bow work under water but with very little effect.
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2013-11-02 17:07
Items that have certain conditions to be used should get greyed out or crossed out as soon as those conditions aren't met.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-02 18:05
That is "relatively easy" to do in the controls branch, since the items have a CanUse callback which could be used for that. Note that cooldowns etc. would also be shown then
Parent - - By domtron [us] Date 2013-11-02 18:28
I agree that a musket shouldn't work underwater but why wouldn't a bow would work?
Parent - - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-02 18:48
I have never shot a bow under water, but I bet if you tried it would go no further that 5 feet and wouldn't have the power to kill a slug.
Parent - - By domtron [us] Date 2013-11-02 20:27

> it would go no further that 5 feet

So it seems bows have been used underwater(and above) to shoot fish, but the bow design needs to be radically changed to reduce the friction of water on the arms of the bow.

As a poster from the second link says

> For mythbusters they found that anything moving supersonic will stop within a few feet. This is because the impact will explode the bullet, a subsonic will shoot underwater quite well.

Shooting bullets into water won't work but arrows work "quite well."

Assuming you want to be realistic. :P
Parent - - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-03 18:17
Well then I stand corrected. :)  Then I would have to favor Maikel's idea.

I can't see the vids because of my pore internet, but I will have to take your word for it.
Parent - By domtron [us] Date 2013-11-03 19:22
Same here, but I'm sure they are awesome. :P
Parent - - By Andriel Date 2013-11-02 20:57

>>wouldn't have the power to kill a slug.

You can even kill a shark!
Parent - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-04 18:36
Wow! I finally got to watch that it and did kill the shark. Oh! By the way the arrows cant be normal (hollow) the have to be solid or it wont work. So I say the bow should work underwater. Maybe we could have water arrows. :)
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2013-11-03 00:07
I don't like the introduction of too many objects which almost have the same purpose. This feels like some adventure game where a player starts with a wooden sword and ends up with some titanium alloy crystal bladed killing machine. Bad comparison, but in any case there is some truth in it since in my opinion the difference between a spear and an harpoon are very little. The usage underwater can just be different, and we should be happy, we can change the graphics of the current spear and that should do it. Same for the musket, just let it accept spears as ammo and it works like an harpoon gun.

I'd really like the clonk to be this witty and inventive guy who is able to combine all kinds of objects in different situations to save himself or outsmart enemies. For example: batting a firestone is just cool, the same with speeding up an arrow using the air thingie, or getting launched by a catapult and then using a boompack to get even further are just things which make you happy if you make them work for the first time (and many more times if you outsmart an opponent with that). And I think the same should hold for some of the underwater items which are very similar to existing items.
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-03 16:35
I'd also favour this over introducing water-only items. But I'd have nothing against introducing items that just offer some perks under water (while not being completely useless on land - see the knife example)
Parent - By Ann [de] Date 2013-11-06 23:25
cool stuff at all :)
dunno what to say here but just wanted to say that this looks like cool and interesting stuff.
actually underwater is very boring so this might be cool
- By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 13:45
Speaking of boats, we come to Vehicles!

I wasn't content with my first boat (First draft), so I thought of this design with a paddle-wheel. The prow is covered in metal and is the toughest part of the boat. Maybe two boats bump into each other?
The first draft had the cannon on its back which probably isn't that smart because you want to fire ahead. So this one comes with a front cannon.
The boat shouldn't drift like it did in CR. This was what I hated most about the sailboat back then!

Also redesigned from the first draft but I'm not sure which one I like better. This ones meant to be a big barrel with round metal plates at both ends. The design doesn't matter, really. What mattered to me was that you get a *compact*, small and handy sub. Not like the bulky one from CR. It should move quicker and maybe handle like the plane (I like the control of this).
The turnable, 360° cannon will make underwater battles or mining easier. It shoots anything but is best fitted with harpoons and torpedos!

The submarine does need air, otherwise you won't last long in there.

A buoy which floats around whereever you set it in the water. At the bottom there is a rope or chain or whatever that holds a container (that why I called it the underwater chest). You can use that just like the chest on land to stash your stuff. You can also grab the container and pull it up or down to fit your needs; it has a winch.

Submarines and/or buoyage could work as stationary air distributers!


Nothing much to say on the torpedo. It's the explosive at hand when in a sub! It attracted by metal objects and will steer towards them.
I fooled around with possible propulsion techniques. Like a screw at the end or like the last one of these which Matthi suggested. Or just your regular propeller.

Maikel(?) suggested that the torpedo might be the boompack. I'm not sure about that one!

I guess everyone has seen one of these sea mines:
It waits there on the ground for any metal object to pass by above. As soon as the prey is detected, it detaches from the chain and rises up pretty fast, exploding on contact.
Attracts torpedos!

May be shot from the boat for deployment.

A depth charge. The main weapon you wanna have when on a boat and a submarine is nearby. Just scatter them into the water and they do the job. I made it look like a barrel with a cog wheel sticking out. The wheel might turn as it slowly sinks down like it's measuring the depth.
Also attracts torpedo, so a great defense against them!

This is like an underwater scooter. You hold on the handles and can travel very fast. It's also air-driven. I was thinking that on the middle axis you have your rotor blades and also two pipes that work like the Aeolipile where the air comes out.

For this and the bouy-chest a swimm-hold animation for the clonk would be nice.
- - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 13:45

Critters and creatures occupy the vast sea! Now, this one's your regular fish, preferred prey of everything! We might spent some time to get these fish some kind of swarm intelligence. E.g. they stick together and burst out when something's swimming through or so.

The crab walks around, eating this and that. Sometimes a fish! Nasty little claws do hurt when they pinch your clonk. Crabby meat is very tasty but hard to get. Crabs aren't killed that easily. Objects bounce off them, the harpoon is useless. Only a driven harpoon from the slinger can do the job (well, explosions work as well).
Crabby meat is a great bait for fishnets!

Seaweed grows everywhere! It might very long to pose for a better threat. It entangles your clonk. You will either struggle a little bit to get free or just use your knife.
Also, seaweed is the preferred hideout place for underwater creatures. Crabs and fish will try to hide in there.

Jellyfish are a real threat with their poisonous tentacles! These are very long, too. Also, shooting them with a harpoon will kill them but they continue to float around (instead of swimming), deadly as ever.

The snail doesn't do any real harm, it justs crawls around. Also, the shell is extremely tough. Only explosions kill it, so forget your harpoons and slingers. When a crab gets hold on a snail, it first eats it and then uses the shell for protection. Now you need an explosive for that crab!

Snails might walk around on clonks or submarines, making them heavier and harder to steer.

Deep down below hunts the Lurker, Horror of the Deep! You don't kill the lurker, you don't see lurker. It's a shadowy mass, sprouting tentacles in every direction. These things will smash your submarine and surely smash your clonk. Shooting a tentacle with a harpoon will fend it off but not realy harm the Lurker (just making it angrier!).
What might scare the Lurker is light. But not for long!

The nasty little spawn of the Lurker will come in hundreds! They try to eat you or try to eat through your subs hull, so better rise fast or have a knife and / or many harpoons ready!
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-02 14:20

>Critters and creatures occupy the vast sea! Now, this one's your regular fish, preferred prey of everything! We might spent some time to get these fish some kind of swarm intelligence. E.g. they stick together and burst out when something's swimming through or so.

I suggest to go and try the "underwater" branch and its test scenario!
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 14:24
Oh, sounds good! I'll give it a try.
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2013-11-02 16:26
Some creatures I have graphics for (obviously not tuned to any kind of new graphics style):

I don't like the idea of the "shadowy mass" enemy - it just sounds too specific, like it's really hard to place in a scenario. To be constructive: I'd suggest leaving out the main body. Tentacles could rise from cracks in the ocean floor or small caves, making it much easier to place them (and hide them behind seaweed ;))
Parent - By Pyrit Date 2013-11-02 16:40
I think they should come out of the screen surface and be like a random encounter. At first the jaws music plays, then it get's slowly bigger and more visible so you have some tim to seek a save spot. If you stay out in the open water, it catches you.
Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2013-11-03 12:47
Mysterious tentacles coming from the depths sounds pretty cool.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2013-11-03 16:37
Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2013-11-04 00:29
But but but those don't try to kill you : (

Parent - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-04 18:41
Hay! You know that's not a bad idea a stationary enemy would not need any annoying path-finding programing so it would be allot easier to script right? And we could make it throw nearby objects or clonks.
- - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2013-11-02 13:46
I have a thing or two more to say but not the time right now. But I'll continue posting later!
Parent - By J. J. [py] Date 2013-11-02 14:15
I love the idea, but it would take forever to make all that stuff for openclonk. :D
- - By Newton [de] Date 2015-07-29 23:13
Just stumbled over this again. Man, how I would love to see this one time in OpenClonk! This could be like the Clonk Mars+FarWorlds DeepSea of OpenClonk.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2015-07-30 09:19
We've got the fish now. And lights. I guess with lights, this would be really cool.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2015-07-30 11:07
I still want to finish Matthis other animals, too. After I fixed the Controls desync...
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2015-07-30 11:23
Is it really that hard to fix? What seems to be the problem? Hasn't it been found or something?
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2015-07-30 12:49
I didn't find the time to dive into that yet. But it's on my todo for the next weeks.

I must find the motivation to tackle that rather sooner than later, because I am not allowed to do other stuff on OC before it and I want to do the deep-sea stuff and the diamonds :I
Parent - By Shadow [de] Date 2015-08-11 21:50
I smell ... sniff, sniff ....... FEAR! :)
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Conquer the Deep!

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