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Up Topic General / Help and Questions / problems beating acid rift on insane
- - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-12 21:51 Edited 2016-07-12 21:53
well i try to beat all maps on insane,

but

is this even possible??

i'm happy for any hints how to do it

screenshot is a spoiler.
Attachment: acidriftseemsimpossible.jpg - acid rift seems impossible (428k)
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-07-12 21:53
Yes it is! But might be problematic in single player.
Parent - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-12 21:55
my only idea so far: break the granite to the hopefully open side borders , get some windmills running, enough for building like up to 5 pumps to be faster in pumping then the rain

but honestly i don't feel like i can do it :/
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-13 09:37
I think we only managed with at least 3 players so far.
Parent - By K-Pone [de] Date 2016-07-13 20:30
Yeah, at least if someone is on the top and builds lots of foundations and wallkit-walls a lot
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-14 19:01
i really would appreciate, if there would be an updated oneplayer version of that map. for examplet in diablo style games, the difficulty adapts to harder, when played in multiplayer. but OC makes you feel, you can beat any mission or world also in single player. well the big problem is: i don't like a bronze star between all my gold ones :(
Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2016-07-14 20:45
I think it's cool to have some maps that are really really hard and you need to team up and beat it in multiplayer.

I also don't like when you are penalized for playing with more people.

Why can't you find a team and try to earn the gold star in multiplayer?
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-14 22:13
well i think your opinion is more oldschool and static.

it is true, that it's cool to play in multiplayer. but i have some problems with my provider and internet games in the last weeks were too laggy to play a map that hard. so i need to team up on a lan party.

nevertheless: it's not necessary a penalty, if you play for example against more monsters. but my example is not fitting very well to a mining map. it would fit in a map like the last story-mission, if there would be more enemy knight-clonks and a king hörx with more hp. in games i mentioned it often is necessary for the fun to slain more enemies, so both players have enough to do.
nevertheless one day i definitely try to beat the map in multiplayer. but still a warning in the description like: "on insane it is not possible to beat the map in singelplayer!" should be the least thing a modern game, and i count oc as one, should offer.

cheers,
jonathan
Parent - - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-15 00:14

>but still a warning in the description like: "on insane it is not possible to beat the map in singelplayer!"


Acid Rift is possible in Singleplayer. Try to rush through the granite on the sides, you don't need any building other than the flag.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-18 16:33
i really tried it, but i wasn't fast enough and got out of more material for flints. still this way to play it should be in the description. sorry, but to be honest, i think it sucks more to have a map, that can only be won if luck draws the right landscape to make it playable, than adapting difficulty in diablo-alike games.
Parent - - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-18 20:07
Hm yes I think you are right there. It doesn't really seem right being forced to have much luck (don't know how much) and using a most likely unintended, different path.

I tried to compare OC Worlds with CR settlement maps but there are no CR standart maps where the time pressure alone makes it very hard / based on luck / impossible in Singleplayer.

Actually, the only things that are normally harder in Singleplayer are fact that everything takes a bit longer; you can not rely on other Clonks saving you and of course more brains are useful if new players need to find a trick they have never seen before. These 3 things are not critical in Singleplayer. Pure time pressure + the need of luck is somehow different there, mmmh.
Parent - - By Sven2 Date 2016-07-18 21:57

> Hm yes I think you are right there. It doesn't really seem right being forced to have much luck (don't know how much) and using a most likely unintended, different path.


If we have random maps we will always have some elements of luck. I don't see how this can be prevented. We're trying to keep difficulty the same of course. But if you constrain things too much, the map will always be the same (e.g. If you force there to be always exactly X amount of material at distance Y from the player, etc.).

Something we could add would be a start option for starting the game with a fixed random seed. It could be hidden in a pre-start dialogue you get e.g. through right-clicking the scenario, together with the addon object package selection. Then you could pick a seed and start optimizing for that particular landscape.

Of course the real question is whether all  maps should be beatable on all difficulties in single player. I still see coordinating multiplayer as an act of skill and to gain all medals, you have to pull that off. But Zeer is right there should be a warning if you try to start the scenario alone in single player right now.

I also hope that with future additions such as towers/castle parts/blocks or pumping of concrete the scenario could become beatable in single player.
Parent - - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-18 22:44

>Of course the real question is whether all  maps should be beatable on all difficulties in single player. I


From me a clear "yes" unless there is something like a coop mission folder which sounds like a bad idea. Just saying that the Melee folder is the only folder where more players are needed makes the most sense to me. *coughboomshire* I wouldn't make it too complicate with seeds & desc notes about which maps need more players etc. It's just that we have a map with tons of acid coming down so that the insane Singplayer is not proven to be really finishable, yet, because of time pressure. The luck is not that important for me because the luck is only important if you choose to solve the scen in that weird way..

Good thing that vulcano lava will freeze so this remains as a rare case until the mentioned castlestuff can even help here.
Parent - By Sven2 Date 2016-07-19 06:00

> From me a clear "yes" unless there is something like a coop mission folder which sounds like a bad idea.


But that means either
a) there would be an upper limit in difficulty for those missions that need you to do things quickly
or
b) missions would adjust their difficulty on player count

I understand that not getting all gold stars is annoying. But both proposals to solve it have some weakness. Besides we want to promote multiplayer (because it's just much more fun to play together!). We don't want to penalize it.

Another solution would be to add an extra difficulty level to all missions (something like "Apocalypse") that can explicitly only be started with at least two players and gives you a different achievement if you finish it. So you can earn gold on all missions, but you can only get the double gold star by teaming up. Scaling up the difficulty shouldn't be that hard. We could e.g. add some of the new animals (like Pukas) so one player may have to focus on defending against enemy swarms.
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-19 08:11
I don't agree there. I think each world should be beatable in single player on normal difficulty, the two other difficulties are harder and may sometimes even need more players.

Regarding Acid Rift, I imagine that if you are good enough and have some luck with the landscape and meteorites that you can even beat this round alone on insane.
Parent - - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-19 12:33

>I think each world should be beatable in single player on normal difficulty,


I assume everybody agrees on that. I prefer optional promoting solutions like the good times in the settlement league. But as long as there are no coming worlds that are so hardcore that a single pro cant beat them on Normal just to force ppl into online gaming, it doesn't bug me either.

>Regarding Acid Rift, I imagine that if you are good enough and have some luck with the landscape and meteorites that you can even beat this round alone on insane.


Since Acid Rift is the only map where this has been questioned so far and you think it's possible, it might be already possible to get all gold badges in Singeplayer.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-19 13:33
by the way: i played one gold rush on a small map on insane. i posted this in the #openclonk that night, but it might got lost: if you play a small map, it might be unbeatable, because there was not enough gold to mine for the main goal to achieve. on the other hand i didn't push it here in the forum, because i'm not totally sure, if i might have used the pickaxe on gold and i know that less will be mined compared to dynamite or flints.

cheers,

jonathan
Parent - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-19 14:40
Yes the flints make the difference, I had some gold left after winning.
Attachment: Screenshot004.png (670k)
Parent - - By Wipfhunter [at] Date 2016-07-19 14:40 Edited 2016-07-19 14:45
Yeah, had the same problem yesterday. I used flints, had 3 gold statues, 780 clunker and only one gold ore left. I bought a total of 2 breads- the missing 20 clunker. Should have discovered the berry bushes earlier :(
If you mine coal and dig away small chunks which don't drop a piece of coal on their own, they still count towards the next dropped piece. I somehow feel it's not the same with gold, rock, crystal and similar hard materials.
Reply
Parent - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-19 14:43
I bought 2 breads, too. Then I got more luck with the amount of gold I guess.
Parent - By Maikel Date 2016-07-19 15:32
Good point, we may want to reformulate the goal for insane to remove all gold from the map.
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-19 08:09
The warning could just be in the description of the worlds folder when explaining difficulties. It would be good if we "force" the players to cooperate in network games.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-19 13:37
i don't like that. some people might want to play in single player, for example, because a big update needs to be downloaded or anything which uses the internet. clonk will be so laggy, that you cannot play online anymore.
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-19 15:33
The point is that you can still play the round on hard in single player and beat it. We also need rounds that are hard in multiplayer and because of the competitive element (possible league games) it is a bad idea to make the difficulty player number dependent.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-19 16:11
why not making the difficulties: 1: normal 2:hard 3:coop normal 4:coop hard
one could think about one more difficulty for having the bronze star: easy, like the easy worlds in old clonks with no costs for building for a really quick game.
i also would like to see the old "easy worlds" like classic melee (haifisch see, kleines handgemenge) or very easy single/coop worlds (wipfe retten, monsterjagd), for having maps to finish in several minutes. these maps are also cool to show a friend clonk really quick

cheers jonathan
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-19 17:12
We have Normal, Hard, Insane*

* Insane might need multiple players to complete the round. (This should be added to the description of the folder and we are done).

There is really no need for additional difficulty levels, as the current ones are not even that different, apart in Acid Rift where they are well balanced.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-19 17:32
well if there is a gold star, a single player should be able to play it free, so my idea was just a suggestion, to have a workaround.
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2016-07-19 21:39
Would you think of this matter differently if there were two sets of stars, one for singleplayer and one for multiplayer?
Reply
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-21 13:39
i would try to beat all  stars, as i actually already do :)

i think it is part of the fun to play free everything a game has to offer, or at least the main content. in OC this is missions and worlds I would say. the rewarding system are the stars after beating the rounds. so yes, i would prefer rewards for beating levels. the way how it is done is already pretty good, but one could change it that way. the important statement is, i guess, that you should be able to play free these rewards and not having it impossible, as it is in singleplayer right now. i guess many ways are thinkable.

Jonathan
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-21 14:31
It is not impossible, it is just very hard in acid rift on insane. But in my opinion there is nothing wrong with rounds that are very hard.
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-21 15:20
i would dare to say, that acid rift on insane is in at leas 9 out of 10 rounds impossible in singleplayer, so i don't agree with your statement

jonathan
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-21 16:34
But you want the star, so that 1 round out of 10 is sufficient :D
Parent - - By Zeer [de] Date 2016-07-21 16:51
well i give it only one chance, and afterwards might cheat to get the star then, but nevertheless somehow i will get it :P
Parent - - By Maikel Date 2016-07-21 17:35
So, I played it now, just to be sure. And I managed to do it on insane with my second attempt.
Attachment: Screenshot037.png (1146k)
Parent - By Pyrit Date 2016-07-21 18:32
If you are better than me you are obviously a cheater .
Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2016-07-21 19:13
Good job! Maybe we should increase the difficulty now?
Parent - By Wipfhunter [at] Date 2016-07-21 21:37
Yes of course- but only if the player is Maikel!
Reply
Parent - By Armin [de] Date 2016-07-15 00:20

>I also don't like when you are penalized for playing with more people.


Yeah that would suck anyway. It is an extra bonus challenge to finish hard maps without others. I remember that there was a noname in CR who played all settlement league scens and Seven Keys took him 11(!) hours.
Up Topic General / Help and Questions / problems beating acid rift on insane

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