![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
Yesterday evening I rethought the whole control system including vehicles/structures, arrows/ammunition, standard tools, inventory etc. I came to this quite simple though flexible and IMO persuading system:
WASD – Movement
Up, left, down, right – the four standard directions every 2D game needs. Both jump 'n' run and classic control could remain. These keys give direction to every movement: walking, diving, digging, pushing, climbing, hangling, flying a blimp etc. The S-key is also used for putting items to the ground – see Inventory.
X/Shift/Tab/Space – Vehicles & Structures
This key lets the clonk interfere with the objects around him. This means grabbing vehicles and entering buildings. When you grab or enter sth, a special menu appears over the clonk with options for the corresponding object (see screens). This menu has some kind of tabs/slider and with every push of the key, the next tab/slider will be selected. This allows switching between multiple vehicles that are one after another (common examples: elevator case & lorry or blimp & cannon). The last tab is for cancelling, meaning ungrab a vehicle or leave a building. Alternatively to switching via the key, the tabs can also be selected with the mouse. When a vehicle is grabbed and the next tab is a building, the clonk enters the building with the vehicle.
Mouse buttons – Inventory
The clonk has 4 inventory slots. Three main slots which are selectable via num-keys, the mouse wheel or clicking the icon. The selected main item is activated/used either by clicking on its icon (which is bigger than the icons of non-selected items) or by left-clicking somewhere in the landscape. The fourth slot is for the secondary item which can be acitvated/used as welll either by clicking on it's icon (also bigger) or right-clicking somewhere in the landscape. Free slots remember which item they contained at last and if this item is collected again, it will be put in the right place. If it hasn't been collected before, it'll just be put in the first free slot. You can change the order of the four items by dragging items around and dropping them on a different slot. If you press S while standing, swimming, climbing, hangling or jumping and click the left or right mouse button, the selected item will be dropped.
Using items, throwing
Using items by clicking the coressponding mouse button without pressing S can cause different actions. Some examples: using a conkit, wand or research amulet opens a menu. Using an armor, helmet, cloak or crown makes the clonk put on or off these equipments. They stay in the inventory when they are worn. Using an arrow pack or other munitions makes the clonk load them into their corresponding weapon (e.g. into a quiver of the bow). Now they don't occupy an extra place in the inventory anymore. The icon of the weapon should contain a sign of how many munition it contains and which kinds of. If a bow or other weapon with different munitions is used, the toolbar shows its content (meaning different arrow packs) instead of the clonk's inventory which can also be switched by num-keys or mouse-wheel. Using a rock, flint or spear finally makes the clonk just throw these items.
You see, not every item is throwable anymore (but every item is droppable). When you start pressing the mouse button with a throwable item selected, the clonk puts it over his head and a trajectory preview is shown. You can aim by the angle and distance to the clonk of the cursor. When releasing the mouse button the clonk throws the object. When you press the mouse button too shortly (under a second), the clonk just holds the object over his head and you have to press a second time in order to actually throw. This should prevent accidentally mis-throwing.
Digging, standard tools and different clonk types
With this inventory system, different types of clonks become obsolete. The clonk can use every object and his skills as well as his look are dependent on the items he carries. Every clonk has a shovel as a standard item in the secondary item slot for the right-mouse-button. This means that clonks usually dig with the right-mouse-button if not another item is put to this slot (a wand, or an aimable shield e.g. would also make sense). Every item can be dropped. You need a hammer (actually I'd prefer a toolbox replacing the conkit) for building and a hatchet for chopping. I really think it's adequate to equip new clonks only with a shovel. Digging is what makes clonks unique, not the ability to chop trees. The hammer/toolbox/conkit and the axe/hatchet should be easily accessible and cheap, though.
Crew
Every crew member is represented by an icon in the upper right corner. You can switch the current clonk with the F-num-keys or by clicking on the portrait of a different clonk. In your crew overview you see the energy bars of every clonk and you are noticed if an unselected clonk gets hurt or even burns.
---
Phew, quite a lot of information. What do you think of this system? I think it's quite consistent, could hopefully be intuitive and unifies the pros of all the systems we have already discussed without being too difficult to use. In order to underline my ideas, I've created two modified screenshots, of how the new system could look like.
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
WASD – Movement
Up, left, down, right – the four standard directions every 2D game needs. Both jump 'n' run and classic control could remain. These keys give direction to every movement: walking, diving, digging, pushing, climbing, hangling, flying a blimp etc. The S-key is also used for putting items to the ground – see Inventory.
X/Shift/Tab/Space – Vehicles & Structures
This key lets the clonk interfere with the objects around him. This means grabbing vehicles and entering buildings. When you grab or enter sth, a special menu appears over the clonk with options for the corresponding object (see screens). This menu has some kind of tabs/slider and with every push of the key, the next tab/slider will be selected. This allows switching between multiple vehicles that are one after another (common examples: elevator case & lorry or blimp & cannon). The last tab is for cancelling, meaning ungrab a vehicle or leave a building. Alternatively to switching via the key, the tabs can also be selected with the mouse. When a vehicle is grabbed and the next tab is a building, the clonk enters the building with the vehicle.
Mouse buttons – Inventory
The clonk has 4 inventory slots. Three main slots which are selectable via num-keys, the mouse wheel or clicking the icon. The selected main item is activated/used either by clicking on its icon (which is bigger than the icons of non-selected items) or by left-clicking somewhere in the landscape. The fourth slot is for the secondary item which can be acitvated/used as welll either by clicking on it's icon (also bigger) or right-clicking somewhere in the landscape. Free slots remember which item they contained at last and if this item is collected again, it will be put in the right place. If it hasn't been collected before, it'll just be put in the first free slot. You can change the order of the four items by dragging items around and dropping them on a different slot. If you press S while standing, swimming, climbing, hangling or jumping and click the left or right mouse button, the selected item will be dropped.
Using items, throwing
Using items by clicking the coressponding mouse button without pressing S can cause different actions. Some examples: using a conkit, wand or research amulet opens a menu. Using an armor, helmet, cloak or crown makes the clonk put on or off these equipments. They stay in the inventory when they are worn. Using an arrow pack or other munitions makes the clonk load them into their corresponding weapon (e.g. into a quiver of the bow). Now they don't occupy an extra place in the inventory anymore. The icon of the weapon should contain a sign of how many munition it contains and which kinds of. If a bow or other weapon with different munitions is used, the toolbar shows its content (meaning different arrow packs) instead of the clonk's inventory which can also be switched by num-keys or mouse-wheel. Using a rock, flint or spear finally makes the clonk just throw these items.
You see, not every item is throwable anymore (but every item is droppable). When you start pressing the mouse button with a throwable item selected, the clonk puts it over his head and a trajectory preview is shown. You can aim by the angle and distance to the clonk of the cursor. When releasing the mouse button the clonk throws the object. When you press the mouse button too shortly (under a second), the clonk just holds the object over his head and you have to press a second time in order to actually throw. This should prevent accidentally mis-throwing.
Digging, standard tools and different clonk types
With this inventory system, different types of clonks become obsolete. The clonk can use every object and his skills as well as his look are dependent on the items he carries. Every clonk has a shovel as a standard item in the secondary item slot for the right-mouse-button. This means that clonks usually dig with the right-mouse-button if not another item is put to this slot (a wand, or an aimable shield e.g. would also make sense). Every item can be dropped. You need a hammer (actually I'd prefer a toolbox replacing the conkit) for building and a hatchet for chopping. I really think it's adequate to equip new clonks only with a shovel. Digging is what makes clonks unique, not the ability to chop trees. The hammer/toolbox/conkit and the axe/hatchet should be easily accessible and cheap, though.
Crew
Every crew member is represented by an icon in the upper right corner. You can switch the current clonk with the F-num-keys or by clicking on the portrait of a different clonk. In your crew overview you see the energy bars of every clonk and you are noticed if an unselected clonk gets hurt or even burns.
---
Phew, quite a lot of information. What do you think of this system? I think it's quite consistent, could hopefully be intuitive and unifies the pros of all the systems we have already discussed without being too difficult to use. In order to underline my ideas, I've created two modified screenshots, of how the new system could look like.
I hereby license the following file(s) under the CC-by license
![[es]](/mwf/flags/es.png "Spain")
Great concept and great summary of the discussion. Thank you!I got a few questions regarding the controls for you:
- How do I shoot with the cannon? (The menu confuses me)
- I grab a lorry, move it in front of a door. In front of a door, there is a cannon. A menu appears. How do I enter the lorry into the house / how do I grab the cannon?
- Clonks with a staff as their secondary item can't dig, but can they use the staff in their primary inventory? Can they use the shovel in their primary inventory?
- How do I drop the item in the secondary slot?
- Where do the F-Controls that are used now, go?
> 1. How do I shoot with the cannon? (The menu confuses me)
Just click where you want to shoot, there should be a trajectory preview (as in CX), which I didn't draw. The same with the catapult, crossbow and bow. The menu has following reason: If you select "Laden" then your own inventory is shown and you put things into the catapult. If you select "Schießen" (=Shoot), then the inventory of the catapult is shown and you can scroll through it with the mouse wheel.
But actually I think it should be discussed whether cannons, catapults and crossbows should have their own inventory. Now that the clonk has 3 free slots for flints, I think that should be enough. And these weapons would become much more easy to use without proper inventory.
> 2. I grab a lorry, move it in front of a door. In front of a door, there is a cannon. A menu appears. How do I enter the lorry into the house / how do I grab the cannon?
Actually, the menu doesn't appear, it's already there as you have selected the lory. But two new tabs appear: One for the cannon, one for the house. I'd say "new" vehicles appear to the left of the selected tab and "new" buildings to the right. Now you have the following order: cannon, lorry, house, cancel. Press x and you and the lorry enter the house. Leave the house again without activating the lorry and you can grab the cannon with x.
We could add shift+x (or shift+tab with tab instead of x?) in order to go from right to left and offering the possibility to select the cannon without having to put the lorry in the house, fist. Nevertheless, you could not enter the house with the cannon without removing the lorry first. But actually I think this is a quite rare situation. Instead of swapping vehicles in front of an entrance just ungrab the lorry a little before the door.
> 3. Clonks with a staff as their secondary item can't dig, but can they use the staff in their primary inventory? Can they use the shovel in their primary inventory?
Yes, all items can be used either as primary or as secondary item. The only thing that changes is whether you click left or right. This means you can have the shovel in one of the 3 main slots if you don't use it that often.
> 4. How do I drop the item in the secondary slot?
S+Right-click instead of S+Left-click.
> 5. Where do the F-Controls that are used now, go?
As in a lot of games we could enhance the Esc-Menu. It could contain "Pause game" (with a selected number of uses in network games?), "Options", "Sound on/off" and a special "Developer" entry if Debug-mode is activated. I think the F-num-keys offer a great possibility for selecting clonks, it reminds me of selecting heroes in WC3 ;)
>> 4. How do I drop the item in the secondary slot?
>S+Right-click
How do I activate digging out earth chunks?
Another idea that came to my mind is the following: We could even say that items are not collected by merely walking over them, but only when s is pressed. Then s would be used to collect as well as to drop. Then we wouldn't have to turn the creation of earth chunks on or off anymore, they're created always, just like in sulphur or coal. I think this makes life for newbies easier. They don't collect items by accident anymore and don't get their inventory filled up with stuff they don't want. As all buildings and vehicles (e.g. lorry) should have options to take objects from their inventory directly into the clonk's inventory, the need for collecting items drops.
On the other hand this, this would maybe slow down the gameplay a little. Items falling and hurting the clonk while digging would become a more serious problem (which could be solved by just putting these items to the ground). Regard this as a half-baked idea. What do you think of it?
On the other hand this, this would maybe slow down the gameplay a little. Items falling and hurting the clonk while digging would become a more serious problem (which could be solved by just putting these items to the ground). Regard this as a half-baked idea. What do you think of it?
Love the idea of controlling the "grabbing object". I am not sure this is the best way but surely right now I can't find better ideas, so I second this
Firstly thanks timi, I like the summary and the structured way of the ideas :)
I just have a few doubts:
1) I think I also discussed about having the chance of using 2 object at the same time. But I would do it in a slightly different way.
The problem with your approach is that you just have one use button per object, and for objects like the wand or the shovel in my opinion this is a bit limiting.
For the wand for example, to have to always go through a menu before shooting the spell sounds a bit complicated if it should be used in a fast-paced combat. I would find more natural to select before the spell with for example the right click from the menu, and shoot it how many times I want with the left.
For the shovel for example, if as other suggested it would be possible to use it as a melee weapon (making it more useful even in situations that you don't have to dig), it would be less natural to implement it with 1 button instead of 2 (one for digging, one for striking).
And so on. Moreover to have to deal with 2 selected items at once might be less natural than just have it for once.
I suggested a solution: what if we keep only one inventory slot selected and:
-for normal objects the left and the right button has two specific options (dig and strike for the shovel, select spell/shoot spell for the wand, etc).
-for particular object where having two object at the same time is very convenient (like for example the sword and the shield) you could select the sword, and with the left mouse use the sword, and if present/equipped with the right you could use the shield, and otherwise do nothing/making a two hand attack.
If you think there aren't so MANY objects that would be likely to use at the same time. Apart from combat ones (can be dealt with the system just described) probably the only one that would be useful to have always ready is digging. But while you dig you don't usually need another object... At the end if for digging you just need to press 1 (selecting the shovel) and then dig it doesn't seems that problematic to me.
To summarize:
2 inventary slot:
pro
-have two objects ready at the same time
cons
-only one function per object usable with the mouse
-necessity to use a menu most of the time before using the object
-having to equip correctly 2 objects, not just one
-I think that in fast-paced combat it is unluckily that you switch both primary and secondary object really fast..
my system
cons
-you can't use 2 objects at the same time with all the objects, but just with specific ones.
pros
-need to select one object per time (through mousewheel or numpad is very fast)
-2 functions per object on the mouse: seeing that most of the objects in clonk have 2 main functions right now (mapped to throw and double dig at the moment) you could have these 2 functions always ready to the mouse for any object
-for special object you can achieve the aim of using 2 object at time with left and right button (example of the sword+shield). Not only you achieve this, but you can achieve more options (like if you have the sword and not the shield---> two hand attack) that are not possible with the 2 slot system (without using the keyboard of course)
I am doing another post for the the other observations, this one is getting too long :p
I just have a few doubts:
1) I think I also discussed about having the chance of using 2 object at the same time. But I would do it in a slightly different way.
The problem with your approach is that you just have one use button per object, and for objects like the wand or the shovel in my opinion this is a bit limiting.
For the wand for example, to have to always go through a menu before shooting the spell sounds a bit complicated if it should be used in a fast-paced combat. I would find more natural to select before the spell with for example the right click from the menu, and shoot it how many times I want with the left.
For the shovel for example, if as other suggested it would be possible to use it as a melee weapon (making it more useful even in situations that you don't have to dig), it would be less natural to implement it with 1 button instead of 2 (one for digging, one for striking).
And so on. Moreover to have to deal with 2 selected items at once might be less natural than just have it for once.
I suggested a solution: what if we keep only one inventory slot selected and:
-for normal objects the left and the right button has two specific options (dig and strike for the shovel, select spell/shoot spell for the wand, etc).
-for particular object where having two object at the same time is very convenient (like for example the sword and the shield) you could select the sword, and with the left mouse use the sword, and if present/equipped with the right you could use the shield, and otherwise do nothing/making a two hand attack.
If you think there aren't so MANY objects that would be likely to use at the same time. Apart from combat ones (can be dealt with the system just described) probably the only one that would be useful to have always ready is digging. But while you dig you don't usually need another object... At the end if for digging you just need to press 1 (selecting the shovel) and then dig it doesn't seems that problematic to me.
To summarize:
2 inventary slot:
pro
-have two objects ready at the same time
cons
-only one function per object usable with the mouse
-necessity to use a menu most of the time before using the object
-having to equip correctly 2 objects, not just one
-I think that in fast-paced combat it is unluckily that you switch both primary and secondary object really fast..
my system
cons
-you can't use 2 objects at the same time with all the objects, but just with specific ones.
pros
-need to select one object per time (through mousewheel or numpad is very fast)
-2 functions per object on the mouse: seeing that most of the objects in clonk have 2 main functions right now (mapped to throw and double dig at the moment) you could have these 2 functions always ready to the mouse for any object
-for special object you can achieve the aim of using 2 object at time with left and right button (example of the sword+shield). Not only you achieve this, but you can achieve more options (like if you have the sword and not the shield---> two hand attack) that are not possible with the 2 slot system (without using the keyboard of course)
I am doing another post for the the other observations, this one is getting too long :p
Wow, that's a HUGE response. I got a bit confused by the sheer enormity of your answers, but I think I got everything now. Thanks for the vivid discussion. Now let me try to resolve your doubts ;)
Actually, I don't regard my system as "using 2 object at the same time". It's just an attempt to make the current system of CR more intuitive and flexible. Currently, every clonk has at least two abilities at the same time. Using one of his items and digging. Very often, the clonk even has three or even more abilities at the same time: using an item (throw or double-dig), digging (dig), performing magic (special keys). The system I proposed obtains the possibility to have two options performable at the same time without the confusion concerning the different keys and context-menus. Two mouse-buttons, two items. Quite natural, isn't it? Remember that most of the items that are most suitable for the right-click-slot (shovel, wand) didn't use to be proper objects in CR times. Also I think that Newton was right and it is important to not have to switch between rock/flint and shovel so often in clonk-on-clonk fight.
Concerning the quick-spell of the wand: The menu could appear in a way, that the lastly performed spell is right under the cursor when clicking. This would enable quick-spells with double-click.
Concerning two actions per item: I don't think this is necessary. Personally, I don't like the idea of clicking-for-punching. I hate those games where both opponents are just clicking as fast as they can in a duel. This requires neither strategy nor technique. Clonk's system of jumping&digging around, throwing items, dropping items etc. is more fun in my opinion. For the rest, the randomized clonk-to-clonk box-fight is enough. And here the shovel could be (auto-)used as a weapon, indeed.
Actually, I don't regard my system as "using 2 object at the same time". It's just an attempt to make the current system of CR more intuitive and flexible. Currently, every clonk has at least two abilities at the same time. Using one of his items and digging. Very often, the clonk even has three or even more abilities at the same time: using an item (throw or double-dig), digging (dig), performing magic (special keys). The system I proposed obtains the possibility to have two options performable at the same time without the confusion concerning the different keys and context-menus. Two mouse-buttons, two items. Quite natural, isn't it? Remember that most of the items that are most suitable for the right-click-slot (shovel, wand) didn't use to be proper objects in CR times. Also I think that Newton was right and it is important to not have to switch between rock/flint and shovel so often in clonk-on-clonk fight.
Concerning the quick-spell of the wand: The menu could appear in a way, that the lastly performed spell is right under the cursor when clicking. This would enable quick-spells with double-click.
Concerning two actions per item: I don't think this is necessary. Personally, I don't like the idea of clicking-for-punching. I hate those games where both opponents are just clicking as fast as they can in a duel. This requires neither strategy nor technique. Clonk's system of jumping&digging around, throwing items, dropping items etc. is more fun in my opinion. For the rest, the randomized clonk-to-clonk box-fight is enough. And here the shovel could be (auto-)used as a weapon, indeed.
hehe sorry for the huge response, it is only that in my opinion clonk is a wonderful game that has the major defect in its controls (mostly for newbies), and so the control discussion is really interesting to me :)
I will try to be shorter this time :p
first, I replied to newton with some ideas for the combat: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=390#pid390
I hate as well games that becomes "the quicker to click, the stronger" and I don't want a system like that at all. But clicking to hit doesn't necessary become like that:
For example if you build your combat system around combat actions (swing of the swords or of the shovel for example) and make them not lighting fast but with a minimum delay, you can try to make it in a interesting timing system, where it is not rapidity that counts, but right precise timing (similar to the timing you actually need for good throws) and good reactions (allowing maybe using aimable shields to defend yourself etc).
I propose my system with the idea in mind that the combat system is going to change anyway. Maybe not int the way I think, but anyway I would not be sad if the automatic combat that it is happening today would disappear. I don't find quite interesting in just trying to find everything to throw at the enemy and do it as fast as you can. Neither I find comfortably that if two or mre clonks approaches, they get attached to each other in the automatic combat that just remove control from the player. I would like to keep the chance to use throwing objects as a combat strategy, but to make it used and common only just when particular situations (like when one player has elevation advantage against another one, or he is close to many flints to throw, etc) happen. If you switch to a combat that use the throwing less often, you need also less switch between shovel and rocks/gold.
Moreover I was thinking that the magic system or whatever would be more natural to have it just selecting the wand from the normal inventory (mouse wheel and you are ready) than having to assign it to the second slot.
I agree with you that now digging is always available and that it would be cool to have it also in OC, and this is the only true advantage I see in having a second slot for that. But for just this function do you think we need all this system? at the end to just dig with my system all you would need is pressing 1 or use the mousewheel and there you are, you are ready to dig :) not so much effort no?
I also don't really like the workaround for the quick spell: you would have always to have a menu in the way, even for a short time as a double click, and it can be confusing during rapid actions. And anyway it might work for spells, but for objects that needs two functions (and there are already many in clonk thinking about all the ones that requires both throw and double dig) it would not work without going to the keyboard.
Think at the advantages of this system:
you have a stick of dynamite? right click you turn it on, left click you throw.
you have a pistol? right click you change ammo, left click you shoot
you have a fishing rod? with the left click you throw the rope, with the right you recall it
you have a dagger? left click you strike, right click you have a menu for special options (skin animals, etc)
you could apply it for every object, shovel and axe included (you make a blow/strike with the left, you chop trees or dig with the right.. in this way every object has the same layout).
I will try to be shorter this time :p
first, I replied to newton with some ideas for the combat: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=390#pid390
I hate as well games that becomes "the quicker to click, the stronger" and I don't want a system like that at all. But clicking to hit doesn't necessary become like that:
For example if you build your combat system around combat actions (swing of the swords or of the shovel for example) and make them not lighting fast but with a minimum delay, you can try to make it in a interesting timing system, where it is not rapidity that counts, but right precise timing (similar to the timing you actually need for good throws) and good reactions (allowing maybe using aimable shields to defend yourself etc).
I propose my system with the idea in mind that the combat system is going to change anyway. Maybe not int the way I think, but anyway I would not be sad if the automatic combat that it is happening today would disappear. I don't find quite interesting in just trying to find everything to throw at the enemy and do it as fast as you can. Neither I find comfortably that if two or mre clonks approaches, they get attached to each other in the automatic combat that just remove control from the player. I would like to keep the chance to use throwing objects as a combat strategy, but to make it used and common only just when particular situations (like when one player has elevation advantage against another one, or he is close to many flints to throw, etc) happen. If you switch to a combat that use the throwing less often, you need also less switch between shovel and rocks/gold.
Moreover I was thinking that the magic system or whatever would be more natural to have it just selecting the wand from the normal inventory (mouse wheel and you are ready) than having to assign it to the second slot.
I agree with you that now digging is always available and that it would be cool to have it also in OC, and this is the only true advantage I see in having a second slot for that. But for just this function do you think we need all this system? at the end to just dig with my system all you would need is pressing 1 or use the mousewheel and there you are, you are ready to dig :) not so much effort no?
I also don't really like the workaround for the quick spell: you would have always to have a menu in the way, even for a short time as a double click, and it can be confusing during rapid actions. And anyway it might work for spells, but for objects that needs two functions (and there are already many in clonk thinking about all the ones that requires both throw and double dig) it would not work without going to the keyboard.
Think at the advantages of this system:
you have a stick of dynamite? right click you turn it on, left click you throw.
you have a pistol? right click you change ammo, left click you shoot
you have a fishing rod? with the left click you throw the rope, with the right you recall it
you have a dagger? left click you strike, right click you have a menu for special options (skin animals, etc)
you could apply it for every object, shovel and axe included (you make a blow/strike with the left, you chop trees or dig with the right.. in this way every object has the same layout).
Well, maybe you should start an own topic for a discussion concerning the combat-system (click&punch vs. current system). Two discussions are getting mixed up here. To be honest, I still prefer the dig, run and throw fight to your ideas.
Indeed, but if we wouldn't change the combat system fundamentally (and I actually like it as it is) my inventory system is the better choice :P
It's you choice whether you want the wand to be in a main or the secondary slot. Both works. As I've already stated here, my idea is that every item works in any slot. It's just a question of accessibility. A shovel or a wand are things that I personally would want to use quickly without having to use the wheel. Other possible things are a shield that the clonk holds before himself (possibily aimable?) which protects him from arrows and falling objects, but makes him move more slowly.
First click turns the stick on, the seconds click throws it. Why would I want to throw a deactivated stick of dynamite?
Reloading ammo happens through clicking/using the ammo itself. If the pistol is like the bow and has different kinds of ammunition, it should act like the bow. See here: "Clicking the bow makes the clonk aim. Now the inventory of the bow, namely different arrow types, appear instead of the clonks own inventory. You switch them as it were the clonk's own inventory. With a left-click in the landscape you shoot, with a right-click you stop aiming and then you can change the weapon as usual."
You can't recall it without having thrown it before and vice-versa. First click throws, seconds recals. It's that easy.
The only point where two actions per item make actually sense. It looks like you are not actually against the system of two selected items, but rather against the current combat system.
> If you switch to a combat that use the throwing less often, you need also less switch between shovel and rocks/gold.
Indeed, but if we wouldn't change the combat system fundamentally (and I actually like it as it is) my inventory system is the better choice :P
> magic system or whatever would be more natural to have it just selecting the wand from the normal inventory (mouse wheel and you are ready) than having to assign it to the second slot
It's you choice whether you want the wand to be in a main or the secondary slot. Both works. As I've already stated here, my idea is that every item works in any slot. It's just a question of accessibility. A shovel or a wand are things that I personally would want to use quickly without having to use the wheel. Other possible things are a shield that the clonk holds before himself (possibily aimable?) which protects him from arrows and falling objects, but makes him move more slowly.
> you have a stick of dynamite? right click you turn it on, left click you throw.
First click turns the stick on, the seconds click throws it. Why would I want to throw a deactivated stick of dynamite?
> you have a pistol? right click you change ammo, left click you shoot
Reloading ammo happens through clicking/using the ammo itself. If the pistol is like the bow and has different kinds of ammunition, it should act like the bow. See here: "Clicking the bow makes the clonk aim. Now the inventory of the bow, namely different arrow types, appear instead of the clonks own inventory. You switch them as it were the clonk's own inventory. With a left-click in the landscape you shoot, with a right-click you stop aiming and then you can change the weapon as usual."
> you have a fishing rod? with the left click you throw the rope, with the right you recall it
You can't recall it without having thrown it before and vice-versa. First click throws, seconds recals. It's that easy.
> you have a dagger? left click you strike, right click you have a menu for special options (skin animals, etc)
The only point where two actions per item make actually sense. It looks like you are not actually against the system of two selected items, but rather against the current combat system.
Well, maybe you should start an own topic for a discussion concerning the combat-system (click&punch vs. current system). Two discussions are getting mixed up here. To be honest, I still prefer the dig, run and throw fight to your ideas.
indeed you are right :D
First click turns the stick on, the seconds click throws it. Why would I want to throw a deactivated stick of dynamite?
you could be able to deactivate it/turn it off. like a granade, or something like that. maybe it is not necessary, but it feels more natural to me :)
or maybe you should neet to throw a lot of them inside a lorry
Reloading ammo happens through clicking/using the ammo itself. If the pistol is like the bow and has different kinds of ammunition, it should act like the bow. See here: "Clicking the bow makes the clonk aim. Now the inventory of the bow, namely different arrow types, appear instead of the clonks own inventory. You switch them as it were the clonk's own inventory. With a left-click in the landscape you shoot, with a right-click you stop aiming and then you can change the weapon as usual."
read it and commented it :) yes it works, but I find it more natural that if you select a pistol and click you fire, not "start aiming" no? Also because it makes the second object unreachable when you will use this 2 slots weapons, make the system working different in relationsihp with the object selected (normally right click---> use second object, while in these cases ----> cancel aiming). Not a big deal but can create more confusion
You can't recall it without having thrown it before and vice-versa. First click throws, seconds recals. It's that easy.
It lacks flexibility and control:
control because you need to have a second throw if you just want to just make the rope a bit longer or shorter. Flexibility because for many other objects 2 commands might be needed. If instead of the fishing rod it would be I dunno, the jetbike that can fire and use a turbo for a small time. I can think a lot of situations where 2 commands per objects are needed, if you think at the packs already made by the community
anyway you are right, a lot of the interface should also depend on the combat system used..I should open a discussion about it (probably tomorrow, now I am sleepy :p )
indeed you are right :D
First click turns the stick on, the seconds click throws it. Why would I want to throw a deactivated stick of dynamite?
you could be able to deactivate it/turn it off. like a granade, or something like that. maybe it is not necessary, but it feels more natural to me :)
or maybe you should neet to throw a lot of them inside a lorry
Reloading ammo happens through clicking/using the ammo itself. If the pistol is like the bow and has different kinds of ammunition, it should act like the bow. See here: "Clicking the bow makes the clonk aim. Now the inventory of the bow, namely different arrow types, appear instead of the clonks own inventory. You switch them as it were the clonk's own inventory. With a left-click in the landscape you shoot, with a right-click you stop aiming and then you can change the weapon as usual."
read it and commented it :) yes it works, but I find it more natural that if you select a pistol and click you fire, not "start aiming" no? Also because it makes the second object unreachable when you will use this 2 slots weapons, make the system working different in relationsihp with the object selected (normally right click---> use second object, while in these cases ----> cancel aiming). Not a big deal but can create more confusion
You can't recall it without having thrown it before and vice-versa. First click throws, seconds recals. It's that easy.
It lacks flexibility and control:
control because you need to have a second throw if you just want to just make the rope a bit longer or shorter. Flexibility because for many other objects 2 commands might be needed. If instead of the fishing rod it would be I dunno, the jetbike that can fire and use a turbo for a small time. I can think a lot of situations where 2 commands per objects are needed, if you think at the packs already made by the community
anyway you are right, a lot of the interface should also depend on the combat system used..I should open a discussion about it (probably tomorrow, now I am sleepy :p )
> you could be able to deactivate it/turn it off. like a granade, or something like that.
I personally have never seen a grenade that can be deactivated :P But indeed, a dynamite stick could be blowed in order to turn it off.
> or maybe you should neet to throw a lot of them inside a lorry
Grab the lorry and put them in carefully. You can't throw flints, neither.
> I find it more natural that if you select a pistol and click you fire, not "start aiming"
Quite a good point. What about the system I've proposed in the last few lines of this post for the bow?
> I can think a lot of situations where 2 commands per objects are needed, if you think at the packs already made by the community
I'm sure there would be situations where this could ease things. But actually, I don't find many of them looking at current projects. Having just one action per object is a decision for simplicity, of course. Some ideas have to be implemented in different ways. Your jetpack for example could be put on like a wearable-item, which makes sense. Using it activates the turba. A second item is the machine gun, which shoots when used.
> now I am sleepy :p
I am too. Sleep well!
I forgot a minor point before:
I don't like a lot the need to have a double click for throwing the object. That's just personal, and it can depends on personal taste, but I think that if throwing is assigned to just one button (and in both mine and yours system it is) it would not happen often to have undesired thrown objects, so I think that together with the hold and relase system you propose (and that I completely agree), you can just use the single click to have a faster one :)
I don't like a lot the need to have a double click for throwing the object. That's just personal, and it can depends on personal taste, but I think that if throwing is assigned to just one button (and in both mine and yours system it is) it would not happen often to have undesired thrown objects, so I think that together with the hold and relase system you propose (and that I completely agree), you can just use the single click to have a faster one :)
I think that wearable/equipabble items could be more naturally handled in a separate equip window.
A kind of separated equip window accessable through some keyboard button (or a special slot in the main inventory) where only equippable items are inserted and compare (removing them from the quick inventory) and where they can be equipped/unequipped/dropped.
These items can give new powers or alter the status of the clonk (like crown=regain mana, armor=more hp, scuba diving gear=breath underwater, and so on) and for this reason i don't think they need a really reactive system to access them (they can quite easily be accessed through a separate window without ruining the gameplay experience).
All other objects like shovel, weapons, flints, rocks, etc are in the main inventory
pros
-you remove them for normal inventary slot, keeping it smaller and faster-to-access for items that need faster reactions (item you have to actually use anytime)
-equipping stuff are more likely to be an operation made only from time to time: dealing with them from a slower/separate popup menu that you don't have to access in a very fast way makes it easier to think what to equip or not
-it makes the equipping of items more flexible and controlled: by controlling the separate equip menu you can decide stuff like how many types of equip can be active at the same moment, if just keeping general equip types or different ones for different body parts, and users can see in one overview window all is equipped and their effects
cons
-equipping of items (like armors, scuba diving gears ecc) has to be done through a separate window, so it is slower. But do you need to equip/unequip stuff in just a bunch of seconds normally? I think you can consider normal to have a few more time for these items that are not used immediatly but just give you special powers..
A kind of separated equip window accessable through some keyboard button (or a special slot in the main inventory) where only equippable items are inserted and compare (removing them from the quick inventory) and where they can be equipped/unequipped/dropped.
These items can give new powers or alter the status of the clonk (like crown=regain mana, armor=more hp, scuba diving gear=breath underwater, and so on) and for this reason i don't think they need a really reactive system to access them (they can quite easily be accessed through a separate window without ruining the gameplay experience).
All other objects like shovel, weapons, flints, rocks, etc are in the main inventory
pros
-you remove them for normal inventary slot, keeping it smaller and faster-to-access for items that need faster reactions (item you have to actually use anytime)
-equipping stuff are more likely to be an operation made only from time to time: dealing with them from a slower/separate popup menu that you don't have to access in a very fast way makes it easier to think what to equip or not
-it makes the equipping of items more flexible and controlled: by controlling the separate equip menu you can decide stuff like how many types of equip can be active at the same moment, if just keeping general equip types or different ones for different body parts, and users can see in one overview window all is equipped and their effects
cons
-equipping of items (like armors, scuba diving gears ecc) has to be done through a separate window, so it is slower. But do you need to equip/unequip stuff in just a bunch of seconds normally? I think you can consider normal to have a few more time for these items that are not used immediatly but just give you special powers..
In my opinion clonk is not a role-playing-game with tons of clothes and equipment. An extra menu or even key would be overkill, in my opinion. Actually, it's basically the following: crown, armor, (invisibility) cloak, helmet, diving gear. The advantage of leaving the worn equipment in the inventory is that it occupies an inventory slot. Currently, with an armor e.g. the knight can only carry 2 items. But the player is confused as he is used to a different behaviour, namely 3 items (+arrows) per knight. This confusion stops with the system I proposed.
I agree that maybe another window NOW is not necessary. But it would be a way to have a common/general system to handle any amount of wearable stuff in any kind of additional object pack.
And if it true that maybe a window is not really necessary for the base game with the 5/6 equip objects to have, it also remains true that having equippable/wearable objects inside the quick main inventory is a bit useless since you have to interact with them a really limited number of times.
I consider in fact having the wearable stuff in the inventory slot a disadvantage instead of an advantage: it's a item more in the middle, to cycle through with the mousewheel why you search for the right item to select. And I don't see the lack of coherency with the legacy systems in matter of number of slots occupied such a source of confusion: at the end it would be coherent just with the knight (that was used to have 3 objects), but not with the mage or any other clonk type that couldn't carry 3 objects..
Maybe we can think about a "solution in the middle" without implementing a new window but trying to keep the equip out of the way in the main inventory? :) I am sure we can think about a better system!
And if it true that maybe a window is not really necessary for the base game with the 5/6 equip objects to have, it also remains true that having equippable/wearable objects inside the quick main inventory is a bit useless since you have to interact with them a really limited number of times.
I consider in fact having the wearable stuff in the inventory slot a disadvantage instead of an advantage: it's a item more in the middle, to cycle through with the mousewheel why you search for the right item to select. And I don't see the lack of coherency with the legacy systems in matter of number of slots occupied such a source of confusion: at the end it would be coherent just with the knight (that was used to have 3 objects), but not with the mage or any other clonk type that couldn't carry 3 objects..
Maybe we can think about a "solution in the middle" without implementing a new window but trying to keep the equip out of the way in the main inventory? :) I am sure we can think about a better system!
> But it would be a way to have a common/general system to handle any amount of wearable stuff in any kind of additional object pack.
Why would we want to have a general system for something we don't need? The idea of clonk is not to have hundreds of different kinds of armory. KISS. If anyone wants a RPG-like scenario, though, he's free to make a system on his own. Armalion II did it, for example. But I'm against it in clonk in general.
> that having equippable/wearable objects inside the quick main inventory is a bit useless since you have to interact with them a really limited number of times.
Hm, not right in general. The armor makes the clonk slower and removes his ability to jump high, climb or hangle. You want to take it on and off every time a combat starts. A shield (at least a bigger one like the one I proposed here) could make the clonk also slower. A diving-gear could run out of oxygen. An invisible-cloak would make you invisible also for friends. There are quite lots of imaginable items that you want to take on and of quite frequently. But there are others, you're right, which you usually take on and then don't change anymore, like the crown. I still think, though, that it's good that the crown, which adds some benefits (recovers mana), should also have a downside. It occupies one slot in the inventory. Otherwise, every mage would want to carry a crown.
> I am sure we can think about a better system!
Yes, as I've said here, the system is certainly not flawless or even perfect. But to discuss details like these, I'd prefer to have a working version of the system which helps determining possible problems a lot.
Why would we want to have a general system for something we don't need? The idea of clonk is not to have hundreds of different kinds of armory. KISS. If anyone wants a RPG-like scenario, though, he's free to make a system on his own. Armalion II did it, for example. But I'm against it in clonk in general.
I confirmed at the end of my message that other better ideas might exist, I don't insist on the other window theory!
Hm, not right in general. The armor makes the clonk slower and removes his ability to jump high, climb or hangle. You want to take it on and off every time a combat starts. A shield (at least a bigger one like the one I proposed here) could make the clonk also slower. A diving-gear could run out of oxygen. An invisible-cloak would make you invisible also for friends. There are quite lots of imaginable items that you want to take on and of quite frequently. But there are others, you're right, which you usually take on and then don't change anymore, like the crown. I still think, though, that it's good that the crown, which adds some benefits (recovers mana), should also have a downside. It occupies one slot in the inventory. Otherwise, every mage would want to carry a crown.
mmm I less agree.
If you remove the armor during combat, why you just would like to use an armor? when you are not in combat? an armor should give you advantages rightly in combat.. if it doesnt maybe something is wrong no?
invisible cloak for friends: I think that in a really really small number of situations you would care if an allied can see you or not in a precise point.
the scuba dear sounds a bit weak too (i don' t think you run out of oxygen every 3-5 seconds no? you don't need that much for unequip it
Yes, as I've said here, the system is certainly not flawless or even perfect. But to discuss details like these, I'd prefer to have a working version of the system which helps determining possible problems a lot.
agree... but since the code is still not available I can only try to discuss :) the point is not to bother you at all :)
I confirmed at the end of my message that other better ideas might exist, I don't insist on the other window theory!
Hm, not right in general. The armor makes the clonk slower and removes his ability to jump high, climb or hangle. You want to take it on and off every time a combat starts. A shield (at least a bigger one like the one I proposed here) could make the clonk also slower. A diving-gear could run out of oxygen. An invisible-cloak would make you invisible also for friends. There are quite lots of imaginable items that you want to take on and of quite frequently. But there are others, you're right, which you usually take on and then don't change anymore, like the crown. I still think, though, that it's good that the crown, which adds some benefits (recovers mana), should also have a downside. It occupies one slot in the inventory. Otherwise, every mage would want to carry a crown.
mmm I less agree.
If you remove the armor during combat, why you just would like to use an armor? when you are not in combat? an armor should give you advantages rightly in combat.. if it doesnt maybe something is wrong no?
invisible cloak for friends: I think that in a really really small number of situations you would care if an allied can see you or not in a precise point.
the scuba dear sounds a bit weak too (i don' t think you run out of oxygen every 3-5 seconds no? you don't need that much for unequip it
Yes, as I've said here, the system is certainly not flawless or even perfect. But to discuss details like these, I'd prefer to have a working version of the system which helps determining possible problems a lot.
agree... but since the code is still not available I can only try to discuss :) the point is not to bother you at all :)
> If you remove the armor during combat, why you just would like to use an armor?
Hm, I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that you put the armor on each time a combat starts and put it off again when it ends for more mobility.
But generally concerning wearable stuff: Yes, maybe there is a better system. But I haven't found it yet ;) Now I really go to bed.
other observations:
if you remove the double slot inventory system you can just drop objects with s, without the need for s+leftbutton or s+rightbutton.
I really like instead the ammunition ideas (having a different inventory when you select the weapon, but i didn't understand how you would change the weapon if the inventory is substituted by the weapon inventory.
Maybe you could make that bows and such weapons shoots with left button and change typeofweapon with the right button, allowing the normal inventory switching to happen with the mouse wheel.
I really like the vehicles and structures ideas :)
For what it concerns the fact that every item should be droppable I agree instead with the guy who sad that at least the shovel should be always available (apart from specific scenarios) and undroppable. It only takes one inventory slot, it can be expanded to be the main melee attack if you take my idea for the second-function button, and would avoid the search for a shovel and maybe go back the entire map and then back again for just digging 2cm of terrain and get one object.
I agree with the conkit and axe idea though :)
if you remove the double slot inventory system you can just drop objects with s, without the need for s+leftbutton or s+rightbutton.
I really like instead the ammunition ideas (having a different inventory when you select the weapon, but i didn't understand how you would change the weapon if the inventory is substituted by the weapon inventory.
Maybe you could make that bows and such weapons shoots with left button and change typeofweapon with the right button, allowing the normal inventory switching to happen with the mouse wheel.
I really like the vehicles and structures ideas :)
For what it concerns the fact that every item should be droppable I agree instead with the guy who sad that at least the shovel should be always available (apart from specific scenarios) and undroppable. It only takes one inventory slot, it can be expanded to be the main melee attack if you take my idea for the second-function button, and would avoid the search for a shovel and maybe go back the entire map and then back again for just digging 2cm of terrain and get one object.
I agree with the conkit and axe idea though :)
> if you remove the double slot inventory system you can just drop objects with s, without the need for s+leftbutton or s+rightbutton.
This wouldn't work as you need s for direction while swimming, climbing etc. And dropping items while swimming or climbing is very popular. Moreover, s could be used for collecting items. And finally, if we want the classic-walking-system to remain (press direction to begin to walk, s to stop) it's another point against s for dropping. And I personally still prefer the classic-walking-system to the jump 'n' run-system.
> didn't understand how you would change the weapon if the inventory is substituted by the weapon inventory
Clicking the bow makes the clonk aim. Now the inventory of the bow, namely different arrow types, appear instead of the clonks own inventory. You switch them as it were the clonk's own inventory. With a left-click in the landscape you shoot, with a right-click you stop aiming and then you can change the weapon as usual.
> at least the shovel should be always available
You don't have to drop the shovel if you don't want to. Of couse it should not easily happen by accident. But why do you resist on removing the opportunity to drop the shovel? I'd start with the most "liberal" system and then identify problems or flaws in a real-game-setting.
I've never said my system is ultimate, lots of these things have to be tested and thereafter proabably changed. It's hard to talk about these things theoretically, as practical experience could be totally different.
I agree with your last line :) and I never considered yours either mine systems ultimate, we are here to think together about the best ideas no? and you are a good source :)
about your three points:
-dropping of the shovel: I would not care so much, but as pointed out here http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=191#pid191, it can just slow down the game without really giving much more depth to the gameplay
-s-for-drop: you are right. Maybe (using still my system with 2 buttons available per object) you could have s+left for dropping, s+right for collecting (instead of dropping left and right slot), so you could avoid dropping object when you want to collect them (of course you need the "collect" combination only if you consider your idea of controlling the object you pick up, an idea that i don't dislike at all)
-aiming and packs: mmm do you really need the start aiming and cancel aiming ? would not be more natural shoot directly in the direction you click? if you want to allow also a more dynamic aiming, while you move, jump and so on I think it would be more natural. Also because it would increase the time to change your mind: if you want to shoot an arrow and then decide instead to cast a spell or throw a flint you would need to cancel the aiming, select the right object, and restart the aiming. With mine (2 buttons per object) you should just switch to the object and press left, whatever object you are using. Don't you find it more comfortable?
You could switch between ammo packs with the right button, leaving the mousewheel for a quicker change of object
about your three points:
-dropping of the shovel: I would not care so much, but as pointed out here http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=191#pid191, it can just slow down the game without really giving much more depth to the gameplay
-s-for-drop: you are right. Maybe (using still my system with 2 buttons available per object) you could have s+left for dropping, s+right for collecting (instead of dropping left and right slot), so you could avoid dropping object when you want to collect them (of course you need the "collect" combination only if you consider your idea of controlling the object you pick up, an idea that i don't dislike at all)
-aiming and packs: mmm do you really need the start aiming and cancel aiming ? would not be more natural shoot directly in the direction you click? if you want to allow also a more dynamic aiming, while you move, jump and so on I think it would be more natural. Also because it would increase the time to change your mind: if you want to shoot an arrow and then decide instead to cast a spell or throw a flint you would need to cancel the aiming, select the right object, and restart the aiming. With mine (2 buttons per object) you should just switch to the object and press left, whatever object you are using. Don't you find it more comfortable?
You could switch between ammo packs with the right button, leaving the mousewheel for a quicker change of object
> we are here to think together about the best ideas no? and you are a good source :)
Totally agreement :) But we'll soon come to a point (or have we already passed it?) where trying out is more effective than theorising.
> I would not care so much, but as pointed out here it can just slow down the game without really giving much more depth to the gameplay
I don't get why a possibility to drop the shovel should slow down the gameplay (given that one doesn't drop it by accident, which I also want to avoid in any case). Remeber that I say that every clonk is equipped with a shovel from the beginning. Matthi said that having to look for a shovel when you need one would slow down the gameplay, and now I agree. But if you have one and never throw it away… nothing changes, does it? But in some cases it's quite beneficial to carry 4 items and no shovel.
> you could have s+left for dropping, s+right for collecting
Still doesn't solve the problems while swimming, climbing or using the classic-walking-system.
> do you really need the start aiming and cancel aiming ? would not be more natural shoot directly in the direction you click?
That's quite a good point. What about a system similar to my proposed throwing-system: Clicking shortly puts the clonk in the aim-stage, a second, third, fourth, etc click shoots, a right-click cancels. A longer click (>1 sec) shoots directly in the aimed direction, without having to enter the aim-action before. The lastly selected arrow-type is used.
Another question:How is ammunition handled?
How is wearable gear like the armor, shields and whatnot handled? Or is it "used" by being in the inventory?
Is there any way to select an item of the inventory into the secondary slot without the mouse? (for gamepads)
> How is ammunition handled?
> How is wearable gear like the armor, shields and whatnot handled? Or is it "used" by being in the inventory?
You have to read more carefully :P
> Some examples: using a conkit, wand or research amulet opens a menu. Using an armor, helmet, cloak or crown makes the clonk put on or off these equipments. They stay in the inventory when they are worn. Using an arrow pack or other munitions makes the clonk load them into their corresponding weapon (e.g. into a quiver of the bow). Now they don't occupy an extra place in the inventory anymore. The icon of the weapon should contain a sign of how many munition it contains and which kinds of. If a bow or other weapon with different munitions is used, the toolbar shows its content (meaning different arrow packs) instead of the clonk's inventory which can also be switched by num-keys or mouse-wheel. Using a rock, flint or spear finally makes the clonk just throw these items.
If added some details concerning armors and wearable items here.
> Is there any way to select an item of the inventory into the secondary slot without the mouse? (for gamepads)
Good question. I think the gameplay controls should be designed completely indepent. I'll think a little over it.
I have implemented the 4 inventory slots now in script. It is still a bit hacky, cause I have to hide the engine inventory per script.The selected items are still handled like in CR a selected inventory item. The controls can be adjusted when Sven merges his Control branch.
>I have implemented the 4 inventory slots now in script.
Dynamically?
Powered by mwForum 2.29.7 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill
