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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Magical Selection System
- - By MimmoO Date 2010-02-24 20:08
Hey, I've thought a bit about the magic system, concerning the way you select and use spells. After telling Newton my idea, he gave me some of his thoughts. This may be the combination of both.

The main idea is to have some kind of ring menu. All your spells are displayed in a circle, sorted by categorys, manacost, but you can drag'n'drop them to a place where they might fit better in your opinion.

For mouse users, spell selection and cast then looks like this:

You first click with your mouse in some random point in the landscape. Instantly, the ringmenu opens up. You hold the mouse button pressed, and move it in a certain direction. Depending on the direction, a certain spell is highlighted and dispalyed a bit bigger like here.

Now you release the mouse button, and the spell is selected. Now you can use the spell like any object, for example you have selected some magical bow, you now click once in the landscape, and the arrows flies in that direction. The spell is then deselected, and you can click again to choose another spell. (If we implement something like Second Use, selection/casting a spell could be triggered by pressing the mousebutton with/without shift/ctrl/....)
Parent - - By ala [de] Date 2010-02-24 22:04
It's not only about the magic system but more likely about menus in general.

[Edit]
The suggestion is fine, but one question remains: What happens if the circle is filled and a new entry is assigned to it?
Parent - By MimmoO Date 2010-02-24 22:53
the icons will shift apart to create space for the incoming one.
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 02:20
I think this is quite a good idea. :)
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Parent - - By TheBuilder [us] Date 2010-02-25 06:55
It sounds good, but to access the menu, it should take more than a simple click anywhere on the landscape, right?
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 08:29

>it should take more than a simple click anywhere on the landscape, right?


Well, to open the magic menu you'll need to guess an 8 digit code randomly generated by the game, do three back-flips on one boompack, and then make your clonk drink a handful of nails.
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 09:35
If we are talking about using staffs/wands/magic-books to cast a spell (and I suppose we are, since there will be no magiclonks in OC), I think the only choice that is left is to implement a second use. You can not actually use the same button for selecting a spell and using it. The ideal scheme is like this:
2ND USE: Select spell
1ST USE: Use active (selected) spell
If you have only 1 use, how do you suppose to distinguish between selecting and using? (If not reserving the separate key for spell selection).

By the way, I do not like the idea of clicking "anywhere on the landscape" - it brings unnessecary difficulty and gives nothing in return ("Ok, here is an enemy and I have a staff in my hand... Point right between his eyes... click... Well, SHOOT! SHOOT, I TOLD YOU!!! Damn, what is this menu doing here??? What? NO! I wanted to shoot him and now he ran away!..).
Ring menu? Yes, it would be nice, but this is only a decoration which can be easilly altered afterwards (I suppose it is not big deal to switch from ring selection to, for instance, line selection like the one used in RocketDock). The main point, I think, is that we should decide once and for all how the magic usage should be performed.

P.S. The only idea I have about implementing spellcasting WITHOUT the second use... is to use two different items. For example, we have a magic book, using which we select a spell, and we have a staff which will cast the spell selected in the book. Yes, it is complex (not to mention that now clonk has to use both of his slots - since we removed the third one - so spellcasting will be his ONLY "speciality"). But otherwise secondary use remains the only option
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-02-25 12:47
The obvious solution to 2nd use is to make the staff two-handed.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 13:05
Hmm... I didn't think about that. This is definitely an option. But there are two difficulties here:
1) I have something in my left hand and nothing in my right hand. I pick up the two-handed staff. What happens to the object I hold in my left hand? Am I able to pick up the staff at all?
2) Why should staff be two-handed when the shovel is not? (do not get me wrong: shovel should stay as it is).

In the end I think that two-handed items would be just another pain in the neck.
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:14
Sven didn't say that the staff will need two inventory places. Look at the lorry.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 13:22
You mean, make staff "grabable"?.. Well, this is definitely not going to happen...

EDIT: Oh, I see, like a boompack! That makes some sense, but when you grab either lorry or a boompack you have both your hands act the same. And this definitely does not solve the problem.

P.S. Or maybe I misunderstand something...
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:28
And I don't see the problem. You take a staff. If you select it for use, both hands go to it. Right mouse opens menu, left mouse uses selected spells. If you select a different item with one hand, the staff gets completely deselected.
Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 13:33
Cons:
1) not obvios;
2) time-consuming;
3) involves additional implementation difficulties;
4) little "out of concept" (we have no other objects that act the same and nothing like this was discussed to this point, as far as I know);
5) when you get the staff you already have one hand for it - how do I know that it is not useable alredy?
6) how do I deselect staff when I always have one hand for it?

Sorry, I can not find a single pro for it except for the "solution" of secondary use problem
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:29
I could imagine the staff staying in one hand, until you selected a spell. Then the "spell" moves into the second hand (temporarily blocking any other object you might hold in there). You can cast the spell using your second hand or cancel it/select a new spell using your staff hand.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 13:35
Again:
1) not obvios (why do I cast spell by using spell item, not a staff item?)
2) time-consuming
3) ... alright, you know the rest
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:38
Go and find a solution yourself. :(
No, seriously. You have two functionalities, and you need two buttons for it. Shift is reserved for throw, so we gotta find something else.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 14:07 Edited 2010-02-25 14:21
Sorry if my answers seem a bit harsh. I do not intend to criticise everything posted here - just to find the best of all possible solutions. But I think this is my responsibility (as well as responsibility of other community members) to denote things that are not very well according to my opinion. And I suppose I make my point pretty clear.

In fact there are a lot of solutions for this problem. It is just that I 100% like neither of them:
1) We can have seperate staff for every spell present (limiting the number of spells should be in order). The staff is intended to cast the spell immidiately after it was used. The spell which is cast by a staff is defined in the "Magical Workshop" before the staff construction. Though it solves the "secondary use" problem it leads to extreme complications (50 different staffs lying around from which you should chose the one you need at the moment)
2) The spell can be selected every time you use the staff (limiting the number of spells should be in order as well). When you use the staff, a (ring) menu appears from which you choose your spell and either spell is cast immidiately or after the next use. It also solves the problem but involves huge spellcasting difficulties (not to mention time consumption) which will probably make most of players (myself as well) abandon spellcasting for good.
3) We can make an actual spell something like an ammunition for the staff. Spells can be contained in crystals which are built into the staff (or scrolls put into the book). When you place a crystal(s) into the staff amunition slot the staff can be used. When the ammount of crystals runs out you should insert another crystals there. Thus it is rather simple to switch spells for they are changed the same way the musket/bow ammunition is changed. And this leaves an empty secondary slot after ammunition was placed. Also it saves us from nessecerity of implementing "mana" and this kind of stuff (which I would greatly like to live without). Also this idea provides the most obvios solution for using spells (because the same sequence of actions is used for musket, bow and other weapons).
4) We can also implement a third special slot which is shown in different color and only available if the staff is carried. You can use it to select the currently active spell and then cast it by using the staff slot. When staff is dropped, the third slot disappears. This solution is ocular, the player will easily associate the sudden appearence of the third slot after picking up the staff with the possibility of choosing the spell. We can use both mouse buttons for spellcasting and have an additional slot for our shovel/d-box/the-most-beloved-item.

I only wanted to show that the first solution that comes in mind is not always the best. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 14:30

>Again, sorry if I offended anyone.


I should be sorry.
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 17:24
I agree 1 does not sound like a good idea, though without any concrete magic system this is how spells will work at the moment.

Concerning 2), what is wrong with the control idea Asmageddon thought up?
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Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 18:11
I have nothing against secondary use when it does not come that we need 4MB (oh, boy...) to implement it. It's just that (I tell you in secret) it is rather difficult for me personally to press SHIFT and CTRL keys :-)
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Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 20:17

>it is rather difficult for me personally to press SHIFT and CTRL keys :-)


But, you're just pressing a key and clicking a mouse. You're not even hitting two keyboard keys at once...
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Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-02-25 20:25
Fearing that I might start the old topic again I'll say it anyway: I can not actually explain it but pressing Shift+Click seems not right to me. I'd rather choose spell with RMB and cast it with LMB (that would be great) but since it is not an option I should probably resign from further discussions concerning spellcasting system. Sorry.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-02-25 18:24
I actually like number 4.
While I also would like to be able to cast spells as quickly as in CR with the combomenu - what about opening the spell menu with a click, selecting the spell each time with a combination of (keyboard) keys and casting it (if it is to be aimed) with the mouse again? Sounds much more complicated at first but in the game it will be a lot faster I think
Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 13:21
Sounds a bit like mouse gestures. :)

>The spell is then deselected


For a spell which you will use more often in succession, that would be a bit nerving... To keep controls logic and general, shift/ctrl could prevent deselection.
Parent - - By Kanibal [de] Date 2010-02-25 19:07
The Ring-System sounds quite good. We could add a wand as a tool, and if you have selected it, you can open the magic menu by pressing left-mouse-button and then move the mouse-pointer to one direction. I could imagine, up, right-up, right, right-down, down, left-down, left, left-up.
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Parent - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-02-25 20:15
Of course their will be many more than 8 directions to point the mouse in. ;)
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-02-25 23:02
Now, as I tried how it is: unusable. Selection and execution must be on different keys.
Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Magical Selection System

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