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> would make "throw away stuff to collect something else" needlessly difficult.
Why is that? You just need a free slot to collect something, it doesn't have to be selected.
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If you throw something away and then collect something, you would always have to switch to the new item first. This could obviously be fixed by switching to newly collected items automatically, but I wouldn't want this to happen while digging.A better strategy would be to only switch to a collected item if the current item was automatically switched to after throwing something away. However, this is way too complex and not intuitive at all.
It's probably also very surprising if between throwing away and picking up something else lay a time span of, say, 5 minutes. ;)
Good posting, I agree that managing those empty slots is a bit tedious. I really would love to have Clonk autoselect my next higher slot automatically (if I throwed 3, and 3 is now empty, the next none empty slot (4 or 5, if both are empty 1) should be selected).
This way you could still quickly use several weapons after another.
This way you could still quickly use several weapons after another.
>Thinking about CR, it had definitely a good and simple way of handling multiple items
What. Wasn't the CR solution basically the worst solution possible in any game? Oh god, I remember all the times I had seven things as a knight and wanted to select my bow and accidentally scrolled just past my bow and had to hit V 6 times again.
When I have more than two things in my inventory in CR, I always select them by clicking them with the mouse (/tablet). That selects the desired item directly.
In the basic CR game it was sometimes unpredictable due to lag, because key presses didn't count during lag. But for some reason, in EKE Reloaded, it counted real all button presses. It was really reliable. In EKER I treated the selection of items more like a combo system, rather than to actually think about slots or hands. You could switch between 5 items in a split second and rapidly switch between guns, molotows, grenades and stuff.
Shouldn't we rather compare the inventory selection to another game that also uses slots, the mousewheel for selection, the number keys as shortcuts, and that works and is mainstream? Instead of CR?For example, basically every shooter in existance.
I actually don't know how the inventory works there. Care to explain?
Its basically exactly like you described, you have 9 or 10 slots for items which you can access via number keys or scroll wheel, drag & drop is possible. (Actually the next minecraft update will _introduce_ a special, fixed "offhand" slot, im very curios to how this will work out.)Minecraft has another big difference though: you have a fully modal dialog for your huge inventory (which is seperate from your "slots"). items in the inventory can be dragged (or flipped via keyboard) into the number-key-slots and vice versa, but you cant move or interact while the inventory screen is open. So you usually pack your inventory full of the stuff you need (weapons and healing items or building materials or whatever) and assign the things you want to use in the next few minutes into your slots for quick access. left-clicking is hitting (in the form of damaging enemies or removing blocks), right-clicking sometimes has a use, sometimes not. So basically its what we have, but buttons switched (we always throw on RMB and some items activate on LMB.)
Do you know whether it's possible to select empty slots via the mouse-wheel? Or are they just skipped?
But keep in mind that selecting an empty slot in Minecraft is something you need to do because you can perform an action (hitting blocks / enemies) with empty hands. Not effectively and probably not once you got your tools but it serves a purpose and isn't a state in which you can do just nothing.
Yeah, exactly. But as a side effect, it also serves consistency: If I have one item in slot 1 and want to switch to the item in slot 3, it's three 'clicks' of the mouse wheel, independent of whether there is an item in slot 2 or not. In minecraft, I tend to use this a lot actually and arrange my first few items accordingly (e.g. pickaxe. shovel, torch).
It's also important to note that empty slots are a rare occurrence, compared to OC. Most items stack to 64, and you usually have replacements ready in the "hidden" inventory. I think it even does that replacement automatically in newer versions?Anyways, I don't think we'd have this discussion if you could just carry 64 stones in one inventory slot in OC ;)
You are right, and I'm all for adapting control elements from good games. Actually the new menu and controls do that quite a lot. But shooter gameplay and OpenClonk gameplay differ quite a lot. In shooters you don't have these item combos like projectile+club. Or do you? I don't actually know that much shooters, I have to admit. :/
>E.g. for futuristic weapons with 2 different firemodes.
Ok, so then we should talk about that again when futuristic weapons with 2 firemodes make it into the OC main package, I'd say.
>I don't know if it already exists, but a way to reorder the stuff in the inventory slots would be nice.
Drag & Drop is planned for the interaction menu. You could reorder them there, I guess. I am not yet 100% sure how that will look like, though.
>Also I don't understand why you can select empty slots while scrolling with the mouse wheel instead of only switching to slots with stuff und don't allow scrolling while you only have one item.
That sounds like a valid point.
Is there currently any advantage of selecting empty slots? (In old versions, you would need to do that to collect stuff.)
>Other things I miss at the moment is an intuitive and effective fast switch between 2-3 selectable items (not necssarily between the last two items you selected)
You can still hit the number keys. I guess we can't do the selection much quicker than that. I am using the number keys a lot to select stuff.
>and the nice look of showing e.g. the shield together with the sword. (Like the knight back in CR)
I guess it's not impossible to just show the last selected one. It is just some work.
>Therefore I propose Q to do the following: with Q + # key you can select your quick switch slot quickly (set it to the shield on a respawn for example). Then pressing Q switches to the selected slot and uses that item directly. So after the switch Q acts as the left mouse button effectively. This way I imagine you can switch and use much more quickly and reliably.
I'd like that. Graphically some minor "Q"-Icon or something could make it clear which slot is hotkeyed in case you switched to another Clonk for some time and forgot.
Done this to start with this change. Next will be hotkeys to select the quick switch slot. I'm on it.
> This makes a very fundamental change with quick switch: The switching action is now performed on the key release instead of the key press. Let's see if this performs badly for players.
Why did you change this? Couldn't the quickswitch just happen on Q-down anyway, but then both the selected and the quickswitch item change as you press a number?
I tested that but found it very confusing. The inventory situation changes before you do your setting and it's kind of unpredictable (it isn't but it feels like it is!).Also, I do think these are two distinct inputs and players want to keep do them separately: changing the quick switch slot and actually quick switching.
In addition, I didn't change the old bevahiour for now. The last selected slot becomes the quick switch slot (so with your way, the slot would immediately reset!). Of course, that is something we might want to change anyway and even now it could be bad.
But if the quickswitch button will also trigger a click, it won't be able to trigger the mouse down event if the switch happens on key up.
Yes, something I too realised. You probably don't want to use the previously selected quick item when changing the quick slot.That poses a major problem with this control style.
I just remembered the problem has been addressed already: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=31073#pid31073
Q + number is now the same as number, then Q, isn't it? Are you planning to remove the "last inventory slot" behavior?
> Q + number is now the same as number, then Q, isn't it?
Yeah.
> Are you planning to remove the "last inventory slot" behavior?
Probably, but I wanted some feedback first!
I guess it should at least be possible to switch back to the previous item by pressing Q two times.
>> Are you planning to remove the "last inventory slot" behavior?
>Probably, but I wanted some feedback first!
Veto!
That's not how it works. It works by you giving objective reasons why the behavior is better than the alternative!
How? The quick slot just doesn't jump around, that's all. And quick using will be much better, how is it any worse?
In melees I use one main item and - scenario specific - other item(s). Changing worked perfectly for me!
Sorry, I don't get your point. Maybe you can explain in IRC?
And now, for the reasons stated in this thread, it's number key + Q!
Many complained about how I changed the slot selection from key down to key up. Apparently, a lot of people play Hot Ice completely wrong because they use the number keys to select items and not Q.I am truly amazed that people actually do this. Therefore, the slot selection is now back on key down. It is still possible to change the Q slot with number key + q but it is useless because number key (release) and then q works just as fine. It is also still possible to sort one's inventory by holding number keys but the first slot will get selected thereby.
I don't know how pressing number keys to switch items should be wrong. For me it's better to press 1 and 2 for switching between Windbag and Grenade Launcher. I simply know that 2 is the Grenade Launcher, so if I press 2 I will always select the Grenade Launcher.
No, not until someone fixes SendCursorPos as Zapper mentioned below.
By the way, @SvenHaving a non-mouse button (Q) replace a mouse-button would mean that the non-mouse button (Q) would need to also send the current cursor position.
However, the flag for that (SendCursorPos=1) sends the position in GUI coordinates(!) and is thus not usable. In Knüppeln I hacked around it by just transferring the mouse position every frame so Q can just use the last-known position.
I believe having this fixed/changed would be a prerequisite to allowing Q as an alternative to the "use" button.
Correct me if I am getting it wrong, maybe it works somehow and I just tried the wrong thing?
You can change the CON_CursorPos control to send game coordinates. Though I agree we could change it to just have the key send a position directly instead.
Mh, but I guess changing CON_CursorPos would probably have other implications? It's most likely not how it is by chance?>Though I agree we could change it to just have the key send a position directly instead.
If that's possible, please! When I was using the control stuff as a scripter, I found it quite weird that SendCursorPos would not just set the x, y parameters of the PlayerControl callback, but instead issue another control. But I guess there is a reason it is like that, too?
CON_CursorPos updates the coordinates returned by GetPlayerCursorPos. GUI coordinates was probably because stuff like the old contents menu would be triggered by a key and open at mouse coordinates.I agree the whole method is not very clean and just passing the coordinates with the control should be better.
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