![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
Newton has already proposed it and I have supported him, but the discussion has only little to do with controls: Should the "standard tools" every clonk owns (shovel, hammer, axe) and the "specific tools" which belong to special clonks (wand, crown…) be separated from the clonks?
The idea is that you use the item hammer to build a building (could replace the construction kit), the item shovel to dig and the item axe to chop trees. This system (as it was already introduced in some special scenarios like Zenshin) offers quite many opportunities: These items could gain second functions, the hammer could be thrown (Thor!) and both shovel and axe could be used in clonk-to-clonk fights (instead of boxing). Moreover, the quite weird separation of sorceres, knights etc. would be obsolete: Every clonk could become a wizard by holding a wand, every clonk a knight by wearing an armor or a shield. New combinations would be possible as well as new strategic elements.
This system would require that items in the inventory of a clonk can alter his look. A wand in the inventory should always be visible. Objects without active functions like shields and armors could also be "attached" and removed from the inventory list, but then we need a context menu with detach functions again, which would make things more complicated. I quite like the idea of an armor, a shield or a wand reserving place in the clonk's inventory.
I think this system could make clonk much more consistent and easier to use, as every item would be used by the same key. Of course it would change habits as one would need to carry a shovel quite often, but I think this also adds nice gameplay aspects and strategies. What do you think? Is this an aspect that's worth rethinking?
The idea is that you use the item hammer to build a building (could replace the construction kit), the item shovel to dig and the item axe to chop trees. This system (as it was already introduced in some special scenarios like Zenshin) offers quite many opportunities: These items could gain second functions, the hammer could be thrown (Thor!) and both shovel and axe could be used in clonk-to-clonk fights (instead of boxing). Moreover, the quite weird separation of sorceres, knights etc. would be obsolete: Every clonk could become a wizard by holding a wand, every clonk a knight by wearing an armor or a shield. New combinations would be possible as well as new strategic elements.
This system would require that items in the inventory of a clonk can alter his look. A wand in the inventory should always be visible. Objects without active functions like shields and armors could also be "attached" and removed from the inventory list, but then we need a context menu with detach functions again, which would make things more complicated. I quite like the idea of an armor, a shield or a wand reserving place in the clonk's inventory.
I think this system could make clonk much more consistent and easier to use, as every item would be used by the same key. Of course it would change habits as one would need to carry a shovel quite often, but I think this also adds nice gameplay aspects and strategies. What do you think? Is this an aspect that's worth rethinking?
Yes, a shovel would free up the "dig" key.We might also generalize item usage like that; e.g. having the shovel selected + left click = dig; bow selected + left click = shoot.
> We might also generalize item usage like that; e.g. having the shovel selected + left click = dig; bow selected + left click = shoot.
Yes :) I've already proposed this idea here. Nevertheless it leaves some questions: How do I throw my hammer if left-click is for building? Right-click as the standard throwing key? What about flints and stones then: Shall they be thrown with both left- and right-click? Or right-click as a key for "alternative use" of an item? E.g. quick spell with the wand?
I really like the idea of seperating the "specific tools", but I do have doubts concerning the "standard tools". When I last played the "Far Worlds"-Arctic with Clonkonaut, we were quite annoyed by always having to carry knifes and hammers, because without them, a clonk gets useless pretty quickly.
I fear it might be the same way if one strips the "core" abilitys from the clonk. For example: Big settlement scenarios would almost automatically require _every_ clonk to carry a shovel with him anyway, most likely also a hammer and an axe. Otherwise, the player would need to check which Clonk has a shovel, and maybe move him across the whole map - just to dig out an object thats a few pixels too deep in material.
In my opinion, this only adds fake difficulty.
Also, I don't think a rule is the optimal solution for this, but might be considered a good compromise for use in adventures...?
Well, I think this depends on several factors. It's not impossible to make this one easy without having to lose the possibilities. How many items can each clonk carry? Spontaneously I'd say 3 is good answer. How much does a shovel cost? Is it already in the hut in standard scenarios?
Yeah, I agree, there should be a consistent standard answer for this one. IMO a rule is just a bad compromise, if someone really wants it nobody stops him, but why offer it "out of the box"?
> Also, I don't think a rule is the optimal solution for this, but might be considered a good compromise for use in adventures...?
Yeah, I agree, there should be a consistent standard answer for this one. IMO a rule is just a bad compromise, if someone really wants it nobody stops him, but why offer it "out of the box"?
Another approach would be to give those standard items to every clonk on recruitment...?
For example! Well, I'd say to the first clonk only, otherwise we soon have tons of shovels and (more likely) axes. But with adding the system the choice is given to the scenario developer, which adds flexibility without complexity and is thus a good thing in my opinion.
If it's only the first Clonk, it's practically the same to just add one shovel to the homebase material.As the Recruitment-Callback is for object scripts, it would be nicer to have a new Callback/Field for this somewhere in the Scenario. It would be messy to have to append the same scripts to the clonk in half of the scenarios...
I think we simply should make the clonks much more customizable. A default inventory should be saved into the Crewfile and you should have the possesiblity to change it.
As showed in this picture:
http://imagebin.ca/view/d39T8R.html
As showed in this picture:
http://imagebin.ca/view/d39T8R.html
This isn't the old Clonk forum you can just attach images to your posts without using any kind of image hosting website.
> A default inventory should be saved into the Crewfile and you should have the possesiblity
I think this is unhandy. Why not let the developer of the scenario chose what items to start with? Giving the crew configuration too much options makes the whole game inflexible. If it were up to me, the only things stored in the crew would be names and statistics (maybe ranks in relation to the playtime). I never understood why a good player should also get better clonks.
Mh, "my clonk has a sweeter haircut, than yours!"
![[es]](/mwf/flags/es.png "Spain")
Oh no, then the Clonks in a melee throw each other to death with shovels and hammers!
I totally agree. While stripping the Clonk off his standard tools may suggest an easier control, it actually slows down the whole gameplay: We don't strive to make Clonk as logic to control as possible, we want to make it a game that is fun to play. To strip the Clonk of his standard tools only makes this tool scheme complete, simple and logic in control but the gameplay is more important.Matthias said it, this running around for knifes and hammers can be annoying. The running around for shovels would be even much more. Digging is the core ability of the clonk, we can strip everything else but the clonk basically lives in the Earth. So, "fake difficulty" or "fake simplification" as it wants to simplify the control, but actually makes the gameplay more complex because the clonk now has to manage all these items.
Get my point?
> Also, I don't think a rule is the optimal solution for this, but might be considered a good compromise for use in adventures...?
This would a quick and small overload of the Clonk.
We could make it so a shovel is equipped as a standard inventory object which you can not drop (although a game rule could be created to alter this behavior). We could still use the inventory keys to access digging, but don't change the gameplay.The "inventory" would be more like a "tool bar" then. You just select a tool and use it. Other Clonk abilities like casting spells, turning yourself invisible - whether they are inherent to the Clonk type or acquired as an item - could be added to the tool bar as well.
Otherwise, a "free inventory space" in the toolbar is handy in any case if the shovel is a tool or not since it is controlled with the same key as digging. I agree.
> The "inventory" would be more like a "tool bar" then.
I like this idea. Reminds of WoW and other games. And it would make all abilities quite accessible: Via num-keys, clicking or mousewheel (and then clicking?). But it adds the problems concerning max-item-count and different item-slots again.
We could even go farer and say that items are nestable ("verschachtelbar"). Arrows would be items of the bow&quiver item then, spells items of the wand or spell book. For adventures we could add a bag with the ability to contain 5 additional items (similar to far world's arctic).
I second the idea.
Having to collect objects necessary for really basic stuff like digging and cutting trees will just make additional clonks without these objects almost useless (in a lot of scenarios, if you can't dig, you just can't do anything).
To have the functionalities always available but selectable through a toolbar/inventory/skill system could make it much better, also because in a lot of scenarios or situation basic actions like digging are completely useless and it's not natural to have still one of the main button assigned to them. It could also be easy for a modder to just remove the shovel from the scenario to remove digging if desired.
But I also would like to have an inventory system accessible and fast, and so not too complicated: it should be studied to reach the desired functionality with maximum 1-2 sub-choices and have a clear interface of what is selected, and how to reach something else.
Magic interface needs to be nicely integrated into the new system since now it needs a complete revamp in my opinion.
If clonk types will still be different we could have a basic inventory with the basic stuff (shovel, axe, hammer) and the items collected, while a specific submenu for each type of clonk with magics(mage), skills&equip (knight) and so on. But we the mandatory characteristic of be cohesistent, natural and clear. Not to have to relearn all the menus structures and shapes everytime a new clonk type comes out.
Otherwise as proposed you can remove types and make them dependable on the items used (wands, crowns, swords and shields, etc), but for this the system should be studied even in a better way to mantain a general common feeling and structure to access the specific skills. If to throw a magic you need to select the wand, than open the magic menu, then select the magic, then aim the magic and then shot it will be very bad. You need a way to specify quick actions (maybe a quick bar system?) and anyway a easy way to access the features without the need to go in too many nested menus
Having to collect objects necessary for really basic stuff like digging and cutting trees will just make additional clonks without these objects almost useless (in a lot of scenarios, if you can't dig, you just can't do anything).
To have the functionalities always available but selectable through a toolbar/inventory/skill system could make it much better, also because in a lot of scenarios or situation basic actions like digging are completely useless and it's not natural to have still one of the main button assigned to them. It could also be easy for a modder to just remove the shovel from the scenario to remove digging if desired.
But I also would like to have an inventory system accessible and fast, and so not too complicated: it should be studied to reach the desired functionality with maximum 1-2 sub-choices and have a clear interface of what is selected, and how to reach something else.
Magic interface needs to be nicely integrated into the new system since now it needs a complete revamp in my opinion.
If clonk types will still be different we could have a basic inventory with the basic stuff (shovel, axe, hammer) and the items collected, while a specific submenu for each type of clonk with magics(mage), skills&equip (knight) and so on. But we the mandatory characteristic of be cohesistent, natural and clear. Not to have to relearn all the menus structures and shapes everytime a new clonk type comes out.
Otherwise as proposed you can remove types and make them dependable on the items used (wands, crowns, swords and shields, etc), but for this the system should be studied even in a better way to mantain a general common feeling and structure to access the specific skills. If to throw a magic you need to select the wand, than open the magic menu, then select the magic, then aim the magic and then shot it will be very bad. You need a way to specify quick actions (maybe a quick bar system?) and anyway a easy way to access the features without the need to go in too many nested menus
There could be two or three inventory-slots reserved for tools.
In my opinion, that Idea could only be used for rules. Well you may can use those tools as a weapon, but instead the whole gameplay would get annoying of the carring of Hammer, and Shovels and so on. So the "fast" system, where a clonk can use all tools, would get lost then.
It could be unlogical, that a clonk can carry 3 things, because he takes a winchester (Wester for example), although he normally can take only one think. And what about the Bonusitems? A Knight can carry 3 objects AND 30 arrows. So how is it planed to be able to take those bonusitems only because of wearing/carrying a special Item?
It could be unlogical, that a clonk can carry 3 things, because he takes a winchester (Wester for example), although he normally can take only one think. And what about the Bonusitems? A Knight can carry 3 objects AND 30 arrows. So how is it planed to be able to take those bonusitems only because of wearing/carrying a special Item?
After this quite contrary discussion, let me try to propose an adjusted system:
Every ability of the clonk that needs more than his body is illustrated by an item in his inventory. This unifies and clarifies the controls as every special ability is used by the same key. Moreover, it's immediately clear what a clonk is capable of doing by looking in his inventory without a need for complex menus. The standard abilities like digging, building or chopping are represented by new items (shovel, hammer and axe) that every clonk is equipped with and that can't be dropped. Special abilities like performing magic, turning invisible or diving faster and longer are represented by items such as a wand, an invisible cloak or a diving suit.
The items and thus the abilities of the clonk are represented by icons in the left corner or in the middle of the bottom of the screen, the currently selected item is indicated by a bigger icon. You can switch through items by clicking on an icon, by moving the mouse wheel or by clicking a num-key from 1 to 0. With the left mouse button you "use" the item, which can mean opening a menu, performing a special action (like digging, building, chopping, eating) or just throwing (in the case of flints or rocks). With the right mouse button you always throw the selected item if possible (could also be reserved for alternative uses (quick spell etc.)). The order of the icons doesn't change, each icon keeps it specific number to be reachable by the num-keys. Dragging and dropping of icons in order to change the order would be nice, though.
I'd love if the clonk holds the currently selected item in his hands. No matter whether it's a flint or the shovel. Some items that are wearable (like armors, shields, crowns, suits, cloaks…) can be both put on and off by the left mouse button but stay in the inventory (maybe with an indicator that shows the current state). Clicking on the icon that is currently selected uses it, which means that you can for example just double click the icon of a potion (or its number) in order to drink it.
The most important question that remains is the number of allowed items. Technically, there are 10 slots as there are 10 num-keys. I think this is not a serious restriction. Shall the number of allowed items (remember: every clonk has 3 tools by nature!) be the same for every clonk, shall it vary or shall it even be extensible by bags or similar things? Another question is, whether all of the 3 standard items shall be undropable or just the shovel. Maybe 4 or 5 is a good standard maximum for clonks, especially when he can swap his hammer with a sword or other item. Arrows and other munitions should be packed and as a package treated like every other item.
In my opinion that's a very clear system that's intuitive to use, very flexible and still doesn't add "fake difficulty" as standard abilities are always accessible. What do you think?
[Edit]
Attachment:
Copyright © 2009 Tim Wölfle
License: CC-BY
Every ability of the clonk that needs more than his body is illustrated by an item in his inventory. This unifies and clarifies the controls as every special ability is used by the same key. Moreover, it's immediately clear what a clonk is capable of doing by looking in his inventory without a need for complex menus. The standard abilities like digging, building or chopping are represented by new items (shovel, hammer and axe) that every clonk is equipped with and that can't be dropped. Special abilities like performing magic, turning invisible or diving faster and longer are represented by items such as a wand, an invisible cloak or a diving suit.
The items and thus the abilities of the clonk are represented by icons in the left corner or in the middle of the bottom of the screen, the currently selected item is indicated by a bigger icon. You can switch through items by clicking on an icon, by moving the mouse wheel or by clicking a num-key from 1 to 0. With the left mouse button you "use" the item, which can mean opening a menu, performing a special action (like digging, building, chopping, eating) or just throwing (in the case of flints or rocks). With the right mouse button you always throw the selected item if possible (could also be reserved for alternative uses (quick spell etc.)). The order of the icons doesn't change, each icon keeps it specific number to be reachable by the num-keys. Dragging and dropping of icons in order to change the order would be nice, though.
I'd love if the clonk holds the currently selected item in his hands. No matter whether it's a flint or the shovel. Some items that are wearable (like armors, shields, crowns, suits, cloaks…) can be both put on and off by the left mouse button but stay in the inventory (maybe with an indicator that shows the current state). Clicking on the icon that is currently selected uses it, which means that you can for example just double click the icon of a potion (or its number) in order to drink it.
The most important question that remains is the number of allowed items. Technically, there are 10 slots as there are 10 num-keys. I think this is not a serious restriction. Shall the number of allowed items (remember: every clonk has 3 tools by nature!) be the same for every clonk, shall it vary or shall it even be extensible by bags or similar things? Another question is, whether all of the 3 standard items shall be undropable or just the shovel. Maybe 4 or 5 is a good standard maximum for clonks, especially when he can swap his hammer with a sword or other item. Arrows and other munitions should be packed and as a package treated like every other item.
In my opinion that's a very clear system that's intuitive to use, very flexible and still doesn't add "fake difficulty" as standard abilities are always accessible. What do you think?
[Edit]
Attachment:
Copyright © 2009 Tim Wölfle
License: CC-BY
Attachment: ExampleInventory.png (985k)
Thanks for the summary and the continuative thoughts. I have been sketching an adjusted system myself and had some second thoughts about the concept of the standard tools as selectable tools: The classical clonk to clonk fight goes like this: dig something free, throw it, collect it, throw it, dig something else, throw it, dig even something else...With the new system, the player would have to switch between the inventory slots all the time while with the old system dig is always on dig and throw always on throw (while the clonk uses the shovel, he can't throw, while he has a rock, he can't dig with the slot-system).
Remember, to exclude the standard tools from the standard control into selectable slots just exists to save one key (the USE-key).
Because the DO-key can not be dropped anyway because it is used to grab/ungrab, enter/exit buildings, the hammer and axe could be incorporated into the clonk by the way without having to make the controls more complex.
>The most important question that remains is the number of allowed items.
Well, according to KISS, I'd say the (3) tools don't count against the inventory limit and are shown clearly seperated from the inventory toolbar as much as the magic spells etc are shown seperately. Otherwise, I am all for 3.
In my opinion it would be cool to make a complete overhaul of the combat system:
throwing object is funny a lot of times, but just make the entire combat based on that is a bit lame in my opinion, since it is just translates to a frenetic -run away- dig - find something - go back- throw - cycled. Sometimes throwing objects can be fine and very interesting and I don't want to remove it from the combat, but anyway make I would just like to make the combat richer with some more new features.
For example if you have said that you want to abolish the different types of clonk, you could have that even normal clonks can use swords, bows and other weapons like other objects, making the "dig, find, throw" approach already less common (you don't need anymore a knight to use weapons)
Then it would be nice maybe to have a "fist" object to give a punch to an enemy, (or maybe use the shovel :p ) so normal unequipped combat could be funnier than just see the 2 clonks attached with a little animation and the one with the best equip wins.
If you implement a bit richer combat system (and allowing any type of clonk to use any object it makes it a bit necessary to design a new combat system in my opinion) the throwing approach can still be used, but it won't be so frenetic fast and used 10times in a row. It will be used when it actually is clever to be used, when there are true advantages or the landscapes is favorable (like a higher position or being close to flints).
And good timing with fists could introduce a new gameplay feature, and also making them less confusionary if the fists can actually throw away a little the enemy clonk (and so separate them...I always found confusionary the actual system that you get "attached" to the enemy if you don't press down and run away)
At least it's an idea :p
To summarize: the throwing objects combat approach should be a decided and thought approach based on the current situation, not the standard of normal clonk combats in my opinion. (and so it would also create less problems for the inventory systems due to the fact that it would be less frequently used so much and so quickly)
Another issue with the system discussed here (I agree mostly with timi about all his ideas) is the will to use 2 objects at the same time. I can think for example at sword and shield: it would be awesome to be able to use the sword with one mouse click and to defend yourself with the other button (instead of having just a passive defense), but that it is actually impossible with the current ideas I think. Or for example throwing a spear while anyway (or better, in a little idle moment while) using the sword. A system like that would allow faster and quicker reactions than change weapon, use or throw it, and re-switch weapon.
But I still agree with timi's ideas, and if there is to sacrifice the dual object feature, let be it, because anyway its a very specific feature against a very promising new system..
edit: maybe the dual object system it could be implemented with the possiblity to select a second object inside the inventary (and so cast magic and use swords at the same time, and so on), but I think it would become to unnatural and slow to handle manually. Maybe it could be done with a "clever system" that automatically selects for you a second object if you select a first one (like sword -> shield (if you have it)) but than all the system would become too depending on objects and ina game like clonk with hundreds of them I think is not handleable... I guess there is just to drop this feature..
throwing object is funny a lot of times, but just make the entire combat based on that is a bit lame in my opinion, since it is just translates to a frenetic -run away- dig - find something - go back- throw - cycled. Sometimes throwing objects can be fine and very interesting and I don't want to remove it from the combat, but anyway make I would just like to make the combat richer with some more new features.
For example if you have said that you want to abolish the different types of clonk, you could have that even normal clonks can use swords, bows and other weapons like other objects, making the "dig, find, throw" approach already less common (you don't need anymore a knight to use weapons)
Then it would be nice maybe to have a "fist" object to give a punch to an enemy, (or maybe use the shovel :p ) so normal unequipped combat could be funnier than just see the 2 clonks attached with a little animation and the one with the best equip wins.
If you implement a bit richer combat system (and allowing any type of clonk to use any object it makes it a bit necessary to design a new combat system in my opinion) the throwing approach can still be used, but it won't be so frenetic fast and used 10times in a row. It will be used when it actually is clever to be used, when there are true advantages or the landscapes is favorable (like a higher position or being close to flints).
And good timing with fists could introduce a new gameplay feature, and also making them less confusionary if the fists can actually throw away a little the enemy clonk (and so separate them...I always found confusionary the actual system that you get "attached" to the enemy if you don't press down and run away)
At least it's an idea :p
To summarize: the throwing objects combat approach should be a decided and thought approach based on the current situation, not the standard of normal clonk combats in my opinion. (and so it would also create less problems for the inventory systems due to the fact that it would be less frequently used so much and so quickly)
Another issue with the system discussed here (I agree mostly with timi about all his ideas) is the will to use 2 objects at the same time. I can think for example at sword and shield: it would be awesome to be able to use the sword with one mouse click and to defend yourself with the other button (instead of having just a passive defense), but that it is actually impossible with the current ideas I think. Or for example throwing a spear while anyway (or better, in a little idle moment while) using the sword. A system like that would allow faster and quicker reactions than change weapon, use or throw it, and re-switch weapon.
But I still agree with timi's ideas, and if there is to sacrifice the dual object feature, let be it, because anyway its a very specific feature against a very promising new system..
edit: maybe the dual object system it could be implemented with the possiblity to select a second object inside the inventary (and so cast magic and use swords at the same time, and so on), but I think it would become to unnatural and slow to handle manually. Maybe it could be done with a "clever system" that automatically selects for you a second object if you select a first one (like sword -> shield (if you have it)) but than all the system would become too depending on objects and ina game like clonk with hundreds of them I think is not handleable... I guess there is just to drop this feature..
> if you have said that you want to abolish the different types of clonk
That's not clear yet, but I personally like the idea of abolishing different types of clonk and separate them just by their items.
> it would be awesome to be able to use the sword with one mouse click and to defend yourself with the other button
Hm, I don't really like the click-left-to-punch-and-right-to-defend approach. The standard boxing/sword-fights should stay randomized in my opinion.
> you could have that even normal clonks can use swords, bows and other weapons like other objects
I agree. But in the end, it will be the choice of the scenario developer which weapons are there.
> Then it would be nice maybe to have a "fist" object to give a punch to an enemy
Yes, somewhere else I've also said that I'd like the clonk to punch with his standard shovel, hammer or axe. I've always been wondering why he uses his fists when he could use an axe…
By Anonymous ![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
Date 2009-04-16 00:49
> That's not clear yet, but I personally like the idea of abolishing different types of clonk and separate them just by their items.
In addition to items, we should get a possibility to exchange textures (to create an aquaclonk) and "mount points" to attach weapons, hats, etc.
Mount points should follow animations in position and rotation. Creating a wizard's hat could be as simple as drawing it in 2D and attaching it to the hand-mountpoint.
i like the mount point approach, but maybe if you remove clonk types it would be more natural to dress him up with th eobjects you collect:
like the knight pack: if you find and armor, you use it (and the clonk wears it) and after that you already have change his texture applying the object. if you find a wizard hat you equip it and then it is mounted on you and give you special effects like mana regain or so on. But I would not create a complete separate texture changing system..
For aquaclonk you could have a scuba diving equip, for a ninja a ninja suit, and so on, no need to alter the basic texture imho, but just to have an item system that allows equip and unequip
so that's bring new problems: should equipped items be equipped only when selected on inventory? should they disappear from the inventory when you equip them?
you could solve all this in a natural way having a normal inventory (working as described here and in other topics) and an equip inventory (accessable by a separate key and navigable with mouse) showing clonk body parts and under the objects that are not usable but equippable: armors, scuba diving, wizards hat, boots to make it faster, and so on. You could equip/unequip stuff from this menu allowing the new effects to be applied.
the crucial point is, to keep gameplay fast and more similar to actual clonk, to not equip tools and other objects in the hands: that will remain separated in the inventory that we are describing and accessable through simple mouse wheel.
This separation would keep inventory menu clean from stuff that can't be used in a fast way (what is the advantage of having the armor in the inventory? ). object inventory could always be fast and make players react to the situation, equip inventory should be open only from time to time to give to the clonk special characteristics(breath underwater, regain mana, armor, etc) related to the object.
Thinking even more distant you could also have a separated gui for objects and ammunitions. To have a pistol clip, an arrow or similar in the inventory is a bit useless... to define a system that automatically uses them (and that allow you to change ammo type if needed) could be less confusionary. That could be the second function that I mention in the revised controls topic
like the knight pack: if you find and armor, you use it (and the clonk wears it) and after that you already have change his texture applying the object. if you find a wizard hat you equip it and then it is mounted on you and give you special effects like mana regain or so on. But I would not create a complete separate texture changing system..
For aquaclonk you could have a scuba diving equip, for a ninja a ninja suit, and so on, no need to alter the basic texture imho, but just to have an item system that allows equip and unequip
so that's bring new problems: should equipped items be equipped only when selected on inventory? should they disappear from the inventory when you equip them?
you could solve all this in a natural way having a normal inventory (working as described here and in other topics) and an equip inventory (accessable by a separate key and navigable with mouse) showing clonk body parts and under the objects that are not usable but equippable: armors, scuba diving, wizards hat, boots to make it faster, and so on. You could equip/unequip stuff from this menu allowing the new effects to be applied.
the crucial point is, to keep gameplay fast and more similar to actual clonk, to not equip tools and other objects in the hands: that will remain separated in the inventory that we are describing and accessable through simple mouse wheel.
This separation would keep inventory menu clean from stuff that can't be used in a fast way (what is the advantage of having the armor in the inventory? ). object inventory could always be fast and make players react to the situation, equip inventory should be open only from time to time to give to the clonk special characteristics(breath underwater, regain mana, armor, etc) related to the object.
Thinking even more distant you could also have a separated gui for objects and ammunitions. To have a pistol clip, an arrow or similar in the inventory is a bit useless... to define a system that automatically uses them (and that allow you to change ammo type if needed) could be less confusionary. That could be the second function that I mention in the revised controls topic
By Anonymous
Date 2009-04-15 22:51
"Dig" would be just one key (the key used to select the shovel). There is no reason to require the user to press the "use" key any more, because you could just go into the "dig" state as soon as you select the shovel. You would start digging by left-clicking the target location or pressing a direction on WASD.
Hm, you're right about the issue concerning fast switching between digging and throwing. That's indeed a problem. But what do you propose? Keep digging always on an extra key? I think there are better solutions.
What do you think of this: The clonk has 2 selected items, one being activated and used by the left mouse button and one by the right mouse button. This makes switching via wheel/num-keys more complicated but could solve some problems and add speed to the game. Digging and throwing without having to switch items would be possible and also other combinations would emerge.
[Edit]
I'm not quite sure whether the inventory or toolbar is a good place for spells. This new "dock" (reminds me of the Mac OS thing) cannot replace classical menus (or some new kind of menus), as there are much more spells than would fit in the dock. Or do you think of the dock as a shortcut bar, comparable to the one in WoW? Where you can drag&drop all kind of icons and then just activate them via a num-key? Would be more complex, but interesting, too.
What do you think of this: The clonk has 2 selected items, one being activated and used by the left mouse button and one by the right mouse button. This makes switching via wheel/num-keys more complicated but could solve some problems and add speed to the game. Digging and throwing without having to switch items would be possible and also other combinations would emerge.
[Edit]
> as much as the magic spells etc are shown seperately
I'm not quite sure whether the inventory or toolbar is a good place for spells. This new "dock" (reminds me of the Mac OS thing) cannot replace classical menus (or some new kind of menus), as there are much more spells than would fit in the dock. Or do you think of the dock as a shortcut bar, comparable to the one in WoW? Where you can drag&drop all kind of icons and then just activate them via a num-key? Would be more complex, but interesting, too.
to answer to anonymous and timi:
for digging:
in my opinion switching to shovel doesn't start digging, but as said by anonymous, after pressing left button it starts! So to dig the only time required is a mouse wheel action to select the wheel and one button press of the mouse. Quite fast! If you make the item selection just doable by mouse wheel (without the need of an additional mouse click to select) it is fast enough I think. Moreover since the shovel should not be droppable, the right button could be used to attack with the shovel. So make both digging and fighting really rreally fast to change from one to the other (actually you don't change object: just use right mouse button or left one).
This could advantage the shovel users in melee fights (to use the sword you need an additional selection that is not required with the shovel) but if you make the sword enough stronger it would be balanced.
For the magic system: you have still the two mouse buttons right? if the wand is selected in the inventory, the left mouse button open a menu next to the mouse arrow with spells to select, the right mouse button fires that spell (that remains selected). Of course it would be good to have a quick spell separate bar/menu, but if you think that you should be able to cast spell now even while moving, and aiming simply with the mouse, it would be anyway be a great improvement since the actual one
for digging:
in my opinion switching to shovel doesn't start digging, but as said by anonymous, after pressing left button it starts! So to dig the only time required is a mouse wheel action to select the wheel and one button press of the mouse. Quite fast! If you make the item selection just doable by mouse wheel (without the need of an additional mouse click to select) it is fast enough I think. Moreover since the shovel should not be droppable, the right button could be used to attack with the shovel. So make both digging and fighting really rreally fast to change from one to the other (actually you don't change object: just use right mouse button or left one).
This could advantage the shovel users in melee fights (to use the sword you need an additional selection that is not required with the shovel) but if you make the sword enough stronger it would be balanced.
For the magic system: you have still the two mouse buttons right? if the wand is selected in the inventory, the left mouse button open a menu next to the mouse arrow with spells to select, the right mouse button fires that spell (that remains selected). Of course it would be good to have a quick spell separate bar/menu, but if you think that you should be able to cast spell now even while moving, and aiming simply with the mouse, it would be anyway be a great improvement since the actual one
When we leave the spellcount on todays level, a shortcut bar is not a good idea, cause it always limits flexibillity. A combo system is maybe not intuitive, but fast. (Eg, select wand -> 4, select group fire -> 6 -> cast spell inferno -> 2, select direction: mouse) The problem: Notebooks don't have numblocks.
Generally, I'd like to change todays spellsystem, to something looking more like the M&M system. Like, you choose your group when you get a mage, and then you have 10 spells behind the wand-symbol, extinguish+slight heal is always among them, the rest differs.
Generally, I'd like to change todays spellsystem, to something looking more like the M&M system. Like, you choose your group when you get a mage, and then you have 10 spells behind the wand-symbol, extinguish+slight heal is always among them, the rest differs.
I like the idea of a minor number of spells available (not reducing the total number, but just the number you can have at the same time). But limiting this to defined groups would remove flexibility too imho.
What about a hybrid system? Like going inside the mage tower and buying/selecting the spells you want to carry (maximum like 10). You can always come back to select different types if you think that the actual one are not suitable to the situation, and at the same time you could have a fast and quick control in action.
I would remove combo systems: apart being difficult to memorize if 1 or 2 subgroups is needed, it also creates panic and lack of control if you make a mistake while selecting the spell. To undo or to change the spell might be really really slow and confusing, and of course magic casting should be quite reactive and fast depending on the situation (apart for pro users that could memorize the actual system, magic was not easy to use at all for newbies).
So I like your idea, but giving it the chance to personlize it in the mage tower could add flexibility. You could also keep the magic school choice, like earth, fire, spirit, etc, and add a last category "personalize" where the user select its picks...
What about a hybrid system? Like going inside the mage tower and buying/selecting the spells you want to carry (maximum like 10). You can always come back to select different types if you think that the actual one are not suitable to the situation, and at the same time you could have a fast and quick control in action.
I would remove combo systems: apart being difficult to memorize if 1 or 2 subgroups is needed, it also creates panic and lack of control if you make a mistake while selecting the spell. To undo or to change the spell might be really really slow and confusing, and of course magic casting should be quite reactive and fast depending on the situation (apart for pro users that could memorize the actual system, magic was not easy to use at all for newbies).
So I like your idea, but giving it the chance to personlize it in the mage tower could add flexibility. You could also keep the magic school choice, like earth, fire, spirit, etc, and add a last category "personalize" where the user select its picks...
>What about a hybrid system? Like going inside the mage tower and buying/selecting the spells you want to carry (maximum like 10). You can always come back to select different types if you think that the actual one are not suitable to the situation, and at the same time you could have a fast and quick control in action.
Wow, this sounds like a really cool idea! The mage tower would gain some importance again, then too ;-) ... and, the mage does not carry effectively 1000s of weapons.
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