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Up Topic Development / Scenario & Object Development / Everyday I'm shovelin'...earth chunks
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- - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 15:46
I wanted to grant one of Fluff's first impressions its own thread:

> I don't seem to have found a way to dig without my clonk picking up dirt chunks. It's kind of annoying when the tiny layer of dirt between him and the flint I needed gets on his hands and causes him to blow himself up instead of picking anything up.


This is a vexed topic. Not even a hideous trap for newbies but also for everyone coming from CR. And even if you got used to it, it still is annoying to the limit. So please, anyone, come up with a neat idea on how to make this fun.
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Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 16:06
Wow. Even when I'm on-topic, I'm still causing thread-splitting. What about the standard "You have to press a button if you want chunks to appear" method?
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:21
It's not entirely your fault ;) The question about 'how to' haunts the development for a long time.

> "You have to press a button if you want chunks to appear"


It's time to get more precise: Which button?
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Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 16:34
Because digging is controlled by mouse only now, one of the movement buttons? Down feels the most natural to me.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:41
I feel very uncomfortable with giving players (and developers) the idea that movement buttons under certain circumstances do something else than movement. Imho that was a horrible design flaw in previous clonk titles.
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Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 16:49
The E or Q buttons then? (I don't know what they are for the other control scheme) I can't quite think why someone would need to access their inventory/transfer things to/from a building while they're digging.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:55
It is not really good design if you just randomly sort out buttons that are not in use during the moment in question and alter their function. That's obscure and confusing to the player. Controls should have a very distinct effect the player can rely on. Just think about the control scheme descriptions: "Button 'e': Open contents menu / (when digging) enable earth chunks". That's a very specific abuse. And sooner or later someone will find another something that button shall do and the list of "when doing x then button does y" grows longer and longer.
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Parent - - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 17:05
Well in that case, why not use a new button? We've got a whole keyboard to pick from, after all.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 17:07
Yes...but...well, a whole new button only for this very little thing is a bit...overzealous? ;)
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Parent - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 17:09 Edited 2012-02-12 17:15
We can always add new uses for it later. I'm sure there were a lot of fan-made objects for Clonk Rage that would have benefited from having more buttons.

(P.S. I don't know why I say "we" when I have about as much scripting talent as a squirrel.)
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-02-12 19:25

>I feel very uncomfortable with giving players (and developers) the idea that movement buttons under certain circumstances do something else than movement. Imho that was a horrible design flaw in previous clonk titles.


Well, to be fair remember that the button [Down] actually is the button for picking up stuff already!. Only into your backpack, okay. But every player will have to remember that [down] is for picking up stuff anyway.
So that might not be the worst idea here.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 19:26
What. That's horrible. Even I as an active team member didn't know that :I
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 19:27
No, seriously that's bad :(
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-02-12 16:55
What happened to the idea of using the "other" mouse button? (left button if shovel is on the right slot; right button otherwise)
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:56
As I said to ck: You have 2 items slots, left clicking activates slot 1 and rightclick slot 2.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-02-12 16:57
Yes, but not during shoveling (i.e.: When the other mouse button is still down).
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:58
If a double press is recognised that might do.
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Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2012-02-12 16:10
Note that this has already improved by limiting the amount of earth chunks that are stored when no Earth chunks can be generated right now to 1 -- these are then "released" when digging again with space available in the inventory. I originally proposed to limit this by half an Earth chunk so that when you start digging you never end up with an Earth chunk right from the start. But that's only marginally a good solution.

I remember there was some discussion in the past about generating Earth-Chunks when alternative-clicking (right clicking). What happened to that?
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:21

> alternative-clicking (right clicking). What happened to that?


You have another item in your secondary inventory slot which is then activated :)
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 16:46
The shovel could show a toggle icon in the interaction bar as soon as you are digging. One would only have to press 1 (or whereever the icon appears) to enable earth chunk. The downside is that the mouse is blocked therefore you can't look on the icon's description.
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Parent - - By OanMkvenner [de] Date 2012-03-12 22:39
I like the part with the toggleable mode of the shovel: not because a shovel with differend modes is futuristic and cool n stuff but more likely because we will need a way to change modi of some items anyway. Even if its not neccesary with the standart set of items then modders will need it very soon (i can think of many gadgets or weapons that can have different modi, you could even implement changing to meele with spears).
I think implementing a general button for that wouldnt be a shame.

You could also go the simplified way of defining that button as "item-secondary-action" button. It can then be used for many tasks beside toggling a mode. I could be used for unequipping arrows from a bow - uneqipping ammo from a gun - ....
doubletabbing can as well activate a second items function - for the real complex ones ^^ (im thinking of some HAZARD items here or just some others i would maybe create myself...)

...well i am just throwing around with ideas, make something out of it :)

#edit:  should i more likely talk of "we" or "you" ? ;)
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-03-12 23:03
Yeah, I guess no one really liked my idea at this point ;) There was the idea to reduce hand slots to one item so you have left and right click for two actions. The downside is that you probably lose other things like sword & shield combo (or you have to come up with something else).
If it's just an alternative function, well you have to think about which key to use ;)
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Parent - - By boni [at] Date 2012-03-13 00:28
Well, we might have a free Q key now.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-03-13 00:33
Assign an emote to it!
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Parent - - By OanMkvenner [de] Date 2012-03-13 01:25
im a bit confused that youre giving away the #1 button that easily ^^*   but thinking about it its close to what it used to be: the double-dig button as "use item", which was also placed closest to movement. could thus work well - of course items stil need some way of making you notice, that they bear such a activate/toggle function - and which it would be.
Im thinking forwards here already but i guess making an appropriate note in the item-description (the one that pops out when you mouseover it in your inventory - btw mouseovering any item in the environment for longer than 3 sconds should show a hint/description as well imo but thats another matter) would be sufficient as well as showing some little tag at the item-slot, stating which state is active (harrharr).

I COULD try doing something like that myself cuz i know some about c++ but i havent done anything on OpenClonk yet soo.... lets say it would take a while  :)
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Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-03-13 01:50
Controls can be defined from script; you don't need to dive into the C++ code of the engine for that.
Parent - - By OanMkvenner [de] Date 2012-03-13 00:35
well if you want some examples of possible buttons: well there would be the - now available i guess - valuable Q button, but i would prefer even more the 'tab' button though its for switching something in many games (ok maybe only old games...) i wouldnt mind switching that point-table to another button. or is tab free? not shure :D
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-03-13 00:53
Tab shows/hides the scoreboard which is, I guess, a very common use in others games (e.g. many shooters).
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Parent - - By OanMkvenner [de] Date 2012-03-13 01:03
but who needs it in clonk o.O
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-03-13 01:06
Well, it's in every melee scenario to show kills/death/remaining lives. Just hit tab ;)
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-03-13 13:25
Even in goldmine etc. it should (aka doesn't do it yet) probably show you the progress towards the goal
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2012-02-12 17:20 Edited 2012-02-12 17:28
(In some special regard to Clonk-Karls and Svens proposal:)
If we can, any way possible: Please don't make the most basic used buttons in the game context sensitive. It's just too hard to get - Basically, you'd have a trillion possible game situations where clicking your right mouse button activates item2, and one special case, where under special circumstances it magically enables digging up dirt. I'd hate to see controls like those again.

Also, pressing a keyboard button doesn't strike me as a good idea. There's more or less the scheme "keyboard for movement", "mouse for everything item related" in the controls - I'd keep it as close as possible to that!

As in regard to a possible solution, I'd like to take this a step back and ask if we really need earth chunks that can be dug out of earth. Well, what possible alternatives are there? Here's a list off the top of my head:
- Would an alternative material creating those chunks do, if it is distinct enough?
- What about the "bucket"-Item? It could be used while close to a wall to fill the bucket with fine earth.
- Could we make a recognizable material item (Just as the old gold or loam) that could be placed in the earth?
- Do we even need earth chunks at all?

From my point of view, using any of those methods would drastically simplify the issue. Instead of an awkward "how do we cram it into our controls"-question it becomes a question of "how can our game be played with simple controls".
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Parent - By Fluff [gb] Date 2012-02-12 17:25

> What about the "bucket"-Item? It could be used while close to a wall to fill the bucket with fine earth.


I like this one the most.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-12 17:46
Earth chunks are after a very simply method of rebuilding the landscape. By removing them or obstructing the way you get them you will severely limit the options of landscape shaping, especially rebuilding after you destroyed part of it.

The more I think about double pressing, the more I like it. It is after all a new way of controlling. Every object with a long-lasting effect (shovel, teleglove, ...) could make use of this. The shovel digs out chunks, the teleglove gives the grappled object a little shove, effectively shooting it away :)
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Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2012-02-12 18:16
While I see the motivation for some control for that, "double pressing" still sounds like a horribly bad idea. What you want is basically a "second mode" for items, another trigger - That is all okay, people could want this soon anyway - but using the button for the other most simple action you can perform with your mouse and double-assign it in lack of other mouse buttons is a bad excuse for intuitive control.
It's dependent on the order, and thus also dependent on your arrangement of items. "Double pressing" by pressing "L->R" is not the same as double pressing with "R->L" and is also not the same as "R+L", but I have to distinguish at least between the first two variants depending on in what slot I carry my item, and be careful that I don't end up using a wrong one in the heat of the battle - depending on the item, it might have some grave consequences. I'd just hate to blow up my UltraJumpFlint in my hands because I was just a bit too sloppy while changing my mouse press from L to R.

Also, even with a hypothetical, well-desinged control trigger like that, I still can't say I like the idea of having a second shovel-mode like that. I like your example of the teleglove, though - there, such an extra modus makes sense. I press [some other trigger], other stuff happens, it's some funky machine, after all! But what could possibly explain why the shovel needs that second mode - other than "Well - we couldn't think of another way to map it to our controls."?

I'd rather try to spend some more time figuring out the shovel problem then introducing a new (awkward) control for this.
You mentioned the simplicity of landscape remodelling - and yes, you are right. We would not want to obstruct this. But the simpliest method - as it is right now - already leads to the problems mentioned in the initial post. So while were at it, we should take our time to figure out the best way to enable the player to remodel the landscape, instead of inventing some new magical mappings to fit the old method into.
I am, too, a fan of the bucket-method I mentioned earlier. To compensate the need of the extra item, a bucket could fill in much more earth than a single chunk. Also, the bucket could be emptied gradually by holding the mouse button, so you'd get much more fine control about when and where to spill your earth.
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Parent - - By Clonk-Karl [de] Date 2012-02-12 17:55

> Please don't make the most basic used buttons in the game context sensitive.


But they are already. Pressing a mouse button does something different depending on whether you have a hammer or a shovel in your inventory. Given that, how would an optional "alternative function" for each object be more confusing? The alternative function would be activated by pressing the other mouse button while the object is currently in use.

> Basically, you'd have a trillion possible game situations where clicking your right mouse button activates item2, and one special case, where under special circumstances it magically enables digging up dirt


Note that this is not what's happening -- see Sven's post.
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Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2012-02-12 18:25

>Pressing a mouse button does something different depending on whether you have a hammer or a shovel in your inventory.


Yes, obviously - In any shooter game, I shoot different bullets depending on the weapon I'm holding, that's no surprise. "Activating an item" HAS to be dependent on the item, otherwise, we'd have to map each item on it's own key on the keyboard.
It's more on a meta-layer here, though. We have now the mouse button triggers "L" and "R", each activating the associated item - this much holds true in every game situation. Double-Pressing as proposed, however, would change a buttons functionality: From "Activating Item 2" to "Activating Item 1, but use modus 2 now". That can be a huge difference and may lead to much more frustrating situations than the one debated in the opening post :P
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-02-12 19:29

>Also, pressing a keyboard button doesn't strike me as a good idea. There's more or less the scheme "keyboard for movement", "mouse for everything item related" in the controls - I'd keep it as close as possible to that!


As said here.
Don't forget that [Down] is used for picking up stuff already! So it wouldn't even be another use for an existing button - only slightly adjusted ;)
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-02-12 20:07 Edited 2012-02-12 20:11
Hmm, i agree.
My idea would be (to not make the earth produce chunks but) to introduce a "loam" material that will result in earth chunks. These earth chunks would be placeable as chunks, so one could create stairways and walls with it (so no "splashing").

Edit: So it would be a more powerful tool (to get up) than the "splashing earth chunk" but which is also limited in availability which btw would even create some nice possibilities or the scenario designer.
Parent - - By Günther [de] Date 2012-02-13 01:53

> As in regard to a possible solution, I'd like to take this a step back and ask if we really need earth chunks that can be dug out of earth.


Or, going in the opposite direction, how can we make the earth chunks so good that they can just be always created?
- The Clonks could not pick them up at until they walk away and come back. Or the chunks could spawn outside of the collection box.
- The Clonks could automatically drop something when they have the chance to collect something fragile that's about to fall, to make digging out flints save. That something could be the flint itself, actually.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-02-13 09:27

>- The Clonks could automatically drop something when they have the chance to collect something fragile that's about to fall, to make digging out flints save. That something could be the flint itself, actually.


Ugh. Remember that little paperclip from Microsoft Word? It also tries to be helpful by doing stuff without you asking it.
Whenever something control related happens automatically that I don't want I am so much more annoyed than when I have to press a button to get what I actually want. That's the main reason I use Latex over Word f.e. - because No, I dont want you to autocomplete my enumeration!

Spawning earth all the time would make digging a lot slower since you would constantly have to get rid of mud. I am not saying that is a bad thing per se. But do we want that?
Parent - - By Günther [de] Date 2012-02-13 16:10

> Ugh. Remember that little paperclip from Microsoft Word? It also tries to be helpful by doing stuff without you asking it.


That's not an argument against dropping the flint. Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.

> Spawning earth all the time would make digging a lot slower since you would constantly have to get rid of mud. I am not saying that is a bad thing per se. But do we want that?


The question really is "Is there an amount of earth chunks that is both enough and not too much?" Earth already vanishes partially even when earth chunks are dug out, so increasing the vanishing part until there is just enough left for the occasional earth-chunk-use-case is just a slight balance change.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-02-13 17:34

>Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.


More that you threw away a random object - because the scenario "hey, you just dug out a Flint without inventory space and it exploded" is a lot less annoying than "Hey, you just dug out a Flint without inventory space and the earth chunk in your inventoy exploded" /".. your hammer rolled away into the deep, deep pit of lava!"

>The question really is "Is there an amount of earth chunks that is both enough and not too much?"


True. But then it is also about the timing. There will always be situation where your didn't need the chunk right now but wouldn't have minded if you had gotten it three seconds earlier
Parent - - By Günther [de] Date 2012-02-14 01:51

>> That's not an argument against dropping the flint. Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.
> More that you threw away a random object


I stopped writing about throwing away random objects two posts ago. Please don't argue against strawmen.

In fact, I like the idea of moving flints that you dug out savely to the floor if your hands are full (as if you picked them up and immediately dropped them) so much that I'd like to see it even if we remove earth chunks completely.
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2012-02-14 09:38
Okay, sorry. I misunderstood you there.
That would probably "help" against the exploding flint (when you dig a horizontal tunnel).
But that doesn't sound like a solution to the actual problem of having earth spawn either that you don't need (in case of frequent spawning) or that has a pretty bad timing and feels random (in case of less frequent spawning).
I guess I currently am in favour of the bucket, too - even if not wholly convinced :)
Parent - By Fungiform Date 2012-02-14 15:56
Ha ha, "Damn you auto correction!". We also know that from iPhone.
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Parent - - By PeterW [gb] Date 2012-02-13 17:25

> how can we make the earth chunks so good that they can just be always created?


I'm not sure that's possible. What exactly do we have them for anyway? They clearly aren't a solution for earth disappearing - fixing that without making digging a pain is basically impossible. Using them as improvised weapons seems pretty silly as well. This leaves only the terra-forming application - which we might well just implement in another way.

How about, say, having an empty barrel in one hand while digging with the other causes the barrel to get filled with the dirt? That would still allow you to move even arbitrary materials around (possibly even more efficient). It could allow having it as a production base. It would overlap in functionality a lot with the water/lava barrel (that we will have eventually, right?). Someone could even make a nice animation of the Clonk throwing dirt into a barrel on his back or something.
Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2012-02-13 18:04 Edited 2012-02-13 18:21
This idea also sounds funny.

Edit: I mean funny in a good sense, a funny idea
Parent - By Sven2 [de] Date 2012-02-13 18:23
The barrel sounds really nice. Only downside I see is that you need another tool for a very basic task.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [ie] Date 2012-02-13 19:30
Note: Matthi already begun working on a bucket :)
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