> I don't seem to have found a way to dig without my clonk picking up dirt chunks. It's kind of annoying when the tiny layer of dirt between him and the flint I needed gets on his hands and causes him to blow himself up instead of picking anything up.
This is a vexed topic. Not even a hideous trap for newbies but also for everyone coming from CR. And even if you got used to it, it still is annoying to the limit. So please, anyone, come up with a neat idea on how to make this fun.
> "You have to press a button if you want chunks to appear"
It's time to get more precise: Which button?
(P.S. I don't know why I say "we" when I have about as much scripting talent as a squirrel.)
>I feel very uncomfortable with giving players (and developers) the idea that movement buttons under certain circumstances do something else than movement. Imho that was a horrible design flaw in previous clonk titles.
Well, to be fair remember that the button [Down] actually is the button for picking up stuff already!. Only into your backpack, okay. But every player will have to remember that [down] is for picking up stuff anyway.
So that might not be the worst idea here.
I remember there was some discussion in the past about generating Earth-Chunks when alternative-clicking (right clicking). What happened to that?
> alternative-clicking (right clicking). What happened to that?
You have another item in your secondary inventory slot which is then activated :)
I think implementing a general button for that wouldnt be a shame.
You could also go the simplified way of defining that button as "item-secondary-action" button. It can then be used for many tasks beside toggling a mode. I could be used for unequipping arrows from a bow - uneqipping ammo from a gun - ....
doubletabbing can as well activate a second items function - for the real complex ones ^^ (im thinking of some HAZARD items here or just some others i would maybe create myself...)
...well i am just throwing around with ideas, make something out of it :)
#edit: should i more likely talk of "we" or "you" ? ;)
If it's just an alternative function, well you have to think about which key to use ;)
Im thinking forwards here already but i guess making an appropriate note in the item-description (the one that pops out when you mouseover it in your inventory - btw mouseovering any item in the environment for longer than 3 sconds should show a hint/description as well imo but thats another matter) would be sufficient as well as showing some little tag at the item-slot, stating which state is active (harrharr).
I COULD try doing something like that myself cuz i know some about c++ but i havent done anything on OpenClonk yet soo.... lets say it would take a while :)
If we can, any way possible: Please don't make the most basic used buttons in the game context sensitive. It's just too hard to get - Basically, you'd have a trillion possible game situations where clicking your right mouse button activates item2, and one special case, where under special circumstances it magically enables digging up dirt. I'd hate to see controls like those again.
Also, pressing a keyboard button doesn't strike me as a good idea. There's more or less the scheme "keyboard for movement", "mouse for everything item related" in the controls - I'd keep it as close as possible to that!
As in regard to a possible solution, I'd like to take this a step back and ask if we really need earth chunks that can be dug out of earth. Well, what possible alternatives are there? Here's a list off the top of my head:
- Would an alternative material creating those chunks do, if it is distinct enough?
- What about the "bucket"-Item? It could be used while close to a wall to fill the bucket with fine earth.
- Could we make a recognizable material item (Just as the old gold or loam) that could be placed in the earth?
- Do we even need earth chunks at all?
From my point of view, using any of those methods would drastically simplify the issue. Instead of an awkward "how do we cram it into our controls"-question it becomes a question of "how can our game be played with simple controls".
> What about the "bucket"-Item? It could be used while close to a wall to fill the bucket with fine earth.
I like this one the most.
The more I think about double pressing, the more I like it. It is after all a new way of controlling. Every object with a long-lasting effect (shovel, teleglove, ...) could make use of this. The shovel digs out chunks, the teleglove gives the grappled object a little shove, effectively shooting it away :)
It's dependent on the order, and thus also dependent on your arrangement of items. "Double pressing" by pressing "L->R" is not the same as double pressing with "R->L" and is also not the same as "R+L", but I have to distinguish at least between the first two variants depending on in what slot I carry my item, and be careful that I don't end up using a wrong one in the heat of the battle - depending on the item, it might have some grave consequences. I'd just hate to blow up my UltraJumpFlint in my hands because I was just a bit too sloppy while changing my mouse press from L to R.
Also, even with a hypothetical, well-desinged control trigger like that, I still can't say I like the idea of having a second shovel-mode like that. I like your example of the teleglove, though - there, such an extra modus makes sense. I press [some other trigger], other stuff happens, it's some funky machine, after all! But what could possibly explain why the shovel needs that second mode - other than "Well - we couldn't think of another way to map it to our controls."?
I'd rather try to spend some more time figuring out the shovel problem then introducing a new (awkward) control for this.
You mentioned the simplicity of landscape remodelling - and yes, you are right. We would not want to obstruct this. But the simpliest method - as it is right now - already leads to the problems mentioned in the initial post. So while were at it, we should take our time to figure out the best way to enable the player to remodel the landscape, instead of inventing some new magical mappings to fit the old method into.
I am, too, a fan of the bucket-method I mentioned earlier. To compensate the need of the extra item, a bucket could fill in much more earth than a single chunk. Also, the bucket could be emptied gradually by holding the mouse button, so you'd get much more fine control about when and where to spill your earth.
> Please don't make the most basic used buttons in the game context sensitive.
But they are already. Pressing a mouse button does something different depending on whether you have a hammer or a shovel in your inventory. Given that, how would an optional "alternative function" for each object be more confusing? The alternative function would be activated by pressing the other mouse button while the object is currently in use.
> Basically, you'd have a trillion possible game situations where clicking your right mouse button activates item2, and one special case, where under special circumstances it magically enables digging up dirt
Note that this is not what's happening -- see Sven's post.
>Pressing a mouse button does something different depending on whether you have a hammer or a shovel in your inventory.
Yes, obviously - In any shooter game, I shoot different bullets depending on the weapon I'm holding, that's no surprise. "Activating an item" HAS to be dependent on the item, otherwise, we'd have to map each item on it's own key on the keyboard.
It's more on a meta-layer here, though. We have now the mouse button triggers "L" and "R", each activating the associated item - this much holds true in every game situation. Double-Pressing as proposed, however, would change a buttons functionality: From "Activating Item 2" to "Activating Item 1, but use modus 2 now". That can be a huge difference and may lead to much more frustrating situations than the one debated in the opening post :P
>Also, pressing a keyboard button doesn't strike me as a good idea. There's more or less the scheme "keyboard for movement", "mouse for everything item related" in the controls - I'd keep it as close as possible to that!
As said here.
Don't forget that [Down] is used for picking up stuff already! So it wouldn't even be another use for an existing button - only slightly adjusted ;)
My idea would be (to not make the earth produce chunks but) to introduce a "loam" material that will result in earth chunks. These earth chunks would be placeable as chunks, so one could create stairways and walls with it (so no "splashing").
Edit: So it would be a more powerful tool (to get up) than the "splashing earth chunk" but which is also limited in availability which btw would even create some nice possibilities or the scenario designer.
> As in regard to a possible solution, I'd like to take this a step back and ask if we really need earth chunks that can be dug out of earth.
Or, going in the opposite direction, how can we make the earth chunks so good that they can just be always created?
- The Clonks could not pick them up at until they walk away and come back. Or the chunks could spawn outside of the collection box.
- The Clonks could automatically drop something when they have the chance to collect something fragile that's about to fall, to make digging out flints save. That something could be the flint itself, actually.
>- The Clonks could automatically drop something when they have the chance to collect something fragile that's about to fall, to make digging out flints save. That something could be the flint itself, actually.
Ugh. Remember that little paperclip from Microsoft Word? It also tries to be helpful by doing stuff without you asking it.
Whenever something control related happens automatically that I don't want I am so much more annoyed than when I have to press a button to get what I actually want. That's the main reason I use Latex over Word f.e. - because No, I dont want you to autocomplete my enumeration!
Spawning earth all the time would make digging a lot slower since you would constantly have to get rid of mud. I am not saying that is a bad thing per se. But do we want that?
> Ugh. Remember that little paperclip from Microsoft Word? It also tries to be helpful by doing stuff without you asking it.
That's not an argument against dropping the flint. Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.
> Spawning earth all the time would make digging a lot slower since you would constantly have to get rid of mud. I am not saying that is a bad thing per se. But do we want that?
The question really is "Is there an amount of earth chunks that is both enough and not too much?" Earth already vanishes partially even when earth chunks are dug out, so increasing the vanishing part until there is just enough left for the occasional earth-chunk-use-case is just a slight balance change.
>Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.
More that you threw away a random object - because the scenario "hey, you just dug out a Flint without inventory space and it exploded" is a lot less annoying than "Hey, you just dug out a Flint without inventory space and the earth chunk in your inventoy exploded" /".. your hammer rolled away into the deep, deep pit of lava!"
>The question really is "Is there an amount of earth chunks that is both enough and not too much?"
True. But then it is also about the timing. There will always be situation where your didn't need the chunk right now but wouldn't have minded if you had gotten it three seconds earlier
>> That's not an argument against dropping the flint. Okay, you might conceive a scenario where you're annoyed that the flint you just dug free didn't explode on your feet, but that's such a rare exception that it's well worth it.
> More that you threw away a random object
I stopped writing about throwing away random objects two posts ago. Please don't argue against strawmen.
In fact, I like the idea of moving flints that you dug out savely to the floor if your hands are full (as if you picked them up and immediately dropped them) so much that I'd like to see it even if we remove earth chunks completely.
That would probably "help" against the exploding flint (when you dig a horizontal tunnel).
But that doesn't sound like a solution to the actual problem of having earth spawn either that you don't need (in case of frequent spawning) or that has a pretty bad timing and feels random (in case of less frequent spawning).
I guess I currently am in favour of the bucket, too - even if not wholly convinced :)
> how can we make the earth chunks so good that they can just be always created?
I'm not sure that's possible. What exactly do we have them for anyway? They clearly aren't a solution for earth disappearing - fixing that without making digging a pain is basically impossible. Using them as improvised weapons seems pretty silly as well. This leaves only the terra-forming application - which we might well just implement in another way.
How about, say, having an empty barrel in one hand while digging with the other causes the barrel to get filled with the dirt? That would still allow you to move even arbitrary materials around (possibly even more efficient). It could allow having it as a production base. It would overlap in functionality a lot with the water/lava barrel (that we will have eventually, right?). Someone could even make a nice animation of the Clonk throwing dirt into a barrel on his back or something.
Edit: I mean funny in a good sense, a funny idea
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