I made a new world (Horrid Highway) where you need to build a bridge for some locomotives in an area endangered by meteorites. I have tested the round twice with Fulgen and both times we failed to protect against the meteorites! It is supposed to be a hard round so that is fine to some extent, but I need some more feedback on the round. For now I'd suggest to play on Normal, with 2 or more players, such that it is sort of manageable.
I don't want to spoil too much about possible solutions, so please attempt first and then a discussion about strategies can evolve.
I attached a screenshot of one of the attempts and some more can be found here.
I don't want to spoil too much about possible solutions, so please attempt first and then a discussion about strategies can evolve.
I attached a screenshot of one of the attempts and some more can be found here.
![[at]](/mwf/flags/at.png "Austria")
- I think we didn't have "enough" concrete for the protecting wall because one pump wasn't fast enough. Maybe with two or three pumps we would have succeeded. (Well, this would have cost lots of concrete).
- How about a building like the Rotating Anti Doom Operator from Clonk Mars, which shoots meteors while consuming energy?
- Another problem is that given a fixed amount of time, the foundry doesn't produce as much concrete as the pump pumps out, which makes it a lot more difficult to keep the concrete pump running in order to protect the bridge.
(The screenshot link is wrong, the correct one is http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=33255.)
- How about a building like the Rotating Anti Doom Operator from Clonk Mars, which shoots meteors while consuming energy?
- Another problem is that given a fixed amount of time, the foundry doesn't produce as much concrete as the pump pumps out, which makes it a lot more difficult to keep the concrete pump running in order to protect the bridge.
(The screenshot link is wrong, the correct one is http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=33255.)
> - I think we didn't have "enough" concrete for the protecting wall because one pump wasn't fast enough. Maybe with two or three pumps we would have succeeded. (Well, this would have cost lots of concrete).
Indeed, that is why reduced the amount of meteors even more on "Normal". My guess is that you need 3-4 working foundries to have a safe bridge.
>- How about a building like the Rotating Anti Doom Operator from Clonk Mars, which shoots meteors while consuming energy?
Yes, that could be done by the new cannon system but the graphics are missing. The tesla cannon from there could have an automated mode where it shoots at meteors to destroy them.
> - Another problem is that given a fixed amount of time, the foundry doesn't produce as much concrete as the pump pumps out, which makes it a lot more difficult to keep the concrete pump running in order to protect the bridge.
This is indeed the limitation, we can think about making the foundry faster when producing concrete and have it synchronized with the normal pumping speed. Still you need carry in lots of rocks or prepare even better. You just need protection for 5-10 minutes to build the bridges and let the trains pass.
>(The screenshot link is wrong, the correct one is http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=33255.)
Fixed.
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
What I always wanted was some sort of automatic anti-meteorite cannon, which requires a lot of power to be available for a short time, forcing you to build many compensators. Maybe a lightning cannon, and maybe that would also work with your cannon concept :)
Indeed, currently the lightning (tesla) cannon stores power for a shot, consuming power slowly but steadily. But we can experiment with consuming a lot of power for a short time for a shot.
I'd like to have a few "special" buildings that require more (~a lot of) power. Currently it's very homogeneous and you mostly get away with one or two wind-generators (or one per pump, later on). That's boring.I want huge power farms (compensators) that blow up in a spectacular way when hit by lightning or a meteor.
Those would basically be "late game" (/mid game) buildings where you have to extent your power supply beyond the one wind generator you build at the beginning. The inventor's workshop would also be such a building, imo
I will definitely change the tesla/lightning cannon to be a massive power consumer. Regarding the inventor's workshop I also agree with you (the amount of power needed is not so clear, maybe around a single steam engine?), the only problem I see here is the amount of light bulbs being shown when turned on and off. Do you have an idea to improve this?
The problem lies with managing the power grid. There is hardly any meaningful way to monitor power production or consumption or divert the power flow. Providing power in the critical moment or keeping reserves would be a tedious task of counting red and green light bulbs and running around turning pumps on and off. Doesn't sound like real fun to me.
I don't have a solid plan for that and I guess that is something we have to put more thought into. Just pointed out that with the current system, managing this is horrible.Not to mention the bugs and quirks of the current system (in our playthrough as seen below we had one dead pump which refused to work with lots of power available; 1 wind generator, 1 steam engine and several fully charged compensators).
> dead pump which refused to work with lots of power available
Did it stop pumping after some specific event? From the screenshot it looks like it at least worked at some point.
I'm not sure, it just stopped pumping at some point.
Hard to say. Yes, in the beginning it worked and then suddenly no more. We switched it on and off a few times and build some power-related building inbetween. But it's hard to keep track of a specific event after which it stopped since you don't pay attention to a single pump until you actually notice that it doesn't work anymore. At which point we build a new one and the new one worked fine.
That is too bad, since I myself have not had these issues lately I feel less inclined currently to spend hours devising tests that might fail or may not. If you have the feeling a certain configuration seems to fail I can add it to the power test scenario and try around, but it needs to be somewhat specific unfortunately.
I am also not quite convinced - sure, the current system is very simple: you just have a balance. But "managing" it in this terms just means building enough producers in order to have all the stuff you want running in parallel - and I think that's solved okay-ishly?Sure, there seem to be bugs left. In every round I played I had the feeling that the compensators don't do what they are supposed to do. But apart from the bugs?
The problem with all these "bug reports" is that they are never really clear. Also here, the pump stopped working. Yes, is the foundry full? Is the source clogged? And also replays do not seem to work at the moment which makes it harder.
So, if you (to everyone) find something actionable we can really debug, I'd love to do that, because I really think these small problems cause more frustration with the power system than they should.
Just a general statement for the compensators: They will be fully charged by steady power producers like the wind generator and only up to 50% by the steam engine (unless there is overproduction of power, i.e. a steam engine powering a small consumer). If over 50% power is taken from the compensators rather than the steam engine, because why burn fuel when you have power stored. If this conflicts with your feeling we should probably discuss and have a look at that as well.
So, if you (to everyone) find something actionable we can really debug, I'd love to do that, because I really think these small problems cause more frustration with the power system than they should.
Just a general statement for the compensators: They will be fully charged by steady power producers like the wind generator and only up to 50% by the steam engine (unless there is overproduction of power, i.e. a steam engine powering a small consumer). If over 50% power is taken from the compensators rather than the steam engine, because why burn fuel when you have power stored. If this conflicts with your feeling we should probably discuss and have a look at that as well.
>Just a general statement for the compensators: They will be fully charged by steady power producers like the wind generator and only up to 50% by the steam engine (unless there is overproduction of power, i.e. a steam engine powering a small consumer). If over 50% power is taken from the compensators rather than the steam engine, because why burn fuel when you have power stored. If this conflicts with your feeling we should probably discuss and have a look at that as well.
Might be that I have a different expectation towards the compensators. I.e. I expect that energy is always taken first from compensators (i.e. if I have 10 compensators, each at 40%, they will suffice and the steam engine will not be used). And I expect that all excess energy is stored in compensators irregardless of the current loading state of the compensators. At least that's how I implemented it back then
Compensators are indeed filled if there is overproduction. The problem with them giving their power away directly after being charged 1% is that you have a continuous turning on and off of the compensator and the steam engine. That is why I chose the 50% threshold (in what was already a different implementation of the first compensator concept, which had other problems I don't recall at the moment).
From a gameplay perspective it is nice to have a bit of energy in the compensators, as they make bigger explosions if charged, right?
From a gameplay perspective it is nice to have a bit of energy in the compensators, as they make bigger explosions if charged, right?
That toggling confuses me a little. I expect that the steam engine charges the compensator until it is full (so you'd have the toggling whenever the full compensator starts being depleted).
I can see the point behind filling to 50% if there are wind generators, too, because the fuel is more valueble than the fee wind.
I can see the point behind filling to 50% if there are wind generators, too, because the fuel is more valueble than the fee wind.
>continuous turning on and off of the compensator and the steam engine
Hmm, that shouldn't happen iirc, because the steam engine burns the stuff for a fixed amount of time once it starts burning. So one piece of coal is burned completely before the compensators could be switched on again. This should work as some sort of hysteresis, preventing constant toggling. Not 100% sure though
>From a gameplay perspective it is nice to have a bit of energy in the compensators, as they make bigger explosions if charged, right?
No, it's constant - even if completely empty. Because I like explosions!
I can see the point with the 50%, but I guess it might be more confusing for the player compared to what it's worth. Especially if you have many compensators (like, 10) and need maybe two lightbulbs. If all compensators would be at 40%, the steam engine would turn on. Even if the compensators would be sufficient to provide enough power without the steam engine ever being needed.
Maybe we could disable the 50% threshold and check whether there actually is a turning on and off?
> Hmm, that shouldn't happen iirc, because the steam engine burns the stuff for a fixed amount of time once it starts burning.
From my observation, this is not how the steam engine works anymore. It's working on demand, quickly turning on and off when needed, conserving unburned fuel.
Digging up old posts. What about removing the 50% threshold but preventing continuous turning on and off by a simple time-based cooldown:Once the compensator reaches 0% energy and is turned off, it needs 10 seconds before it can turn on again (it could charge in the meantime, though).
> Also here, the pump stopped working. Yes, is the foundry full? Is the source clogged?
Just to be clear: the pump stopped pumping and showed the 'no power' symbol above it. Source and drain were okay.
I don't fully agree. I agree to the extent that the overview is hard to get for someone new to the game. But there is the flagpole to show a bit of information.
If we take the tesla gun as an example. It should have a high priority (shooting a meteorite/enemy is more important than producing or pumping). Then it suffices to have enough power available in the system to support the consumption of the gun, i.e. if it consumes 20 bulbs, 10 compensators and a windmill will do the job. If it shows the red symbol that is a clear indication of not enough power in the grid.
If we take the tesla gun as an example. It should have a high priority (shooting a meteorite/enemy is more important than producing or pumping). Then it suffices to have enough power available in the system to support the consumption of the gun, i.e. if it consumes 20 bulbs, 10 compensators and a windmill will do the job. If it shows the red symbol that is a clear indication of not enough power in the grid.
Yeah, you do have some general information regarding total production (which is meaningful, I'd say), total consumption (which is kind of meaningful, since it's mostly to display the case of 'everything runs at once' which doesn't happen; all other processes run so quickly that you often don't have time to check and are back to bulb counting). You also have stored power which, honestly, is a value I have no frame of reference to. One compensator is shown as '0.5 bulbs' and I don't know what that means (I'm aware that it's a hard job to display something meaningful here).With prioritisation the problem will always be that, as a player, you have to take what's given to you and trust that the system knows best. Which might not always be your personal preference or matching your current state of the game. We can certainly say that the priority should be 'shooting, pumping, elevating, producing' or similar but there's always the possibility this might screw you over. E.g. with your scenario, having power for the elevator is higher priority than with other scenarios because it's the only means of transportation between the levels because of the brick. If at some point a tesla cannon goes crazy and drains all power from the system, you'll be stranded whereever you are as long as it's firing.
How about setting the priority to a default value and allowing the player to edit that value ingame?
I think Command & Conquer did do it quite well. You had production vs. consumption and you could switch off the consumers that you don't need. This is very similar to our system already.
I think Command & Conquer did do it quite well. You had production vs. consumption and you could switch off the consumers that you don't need. This is very similar to our system already.
Nice solution! I was aware of this "bug" when I looked at the meteorite script, but then forgot about it. This will be fixed soon!
How much playing time did it take?
How much playing time did it take?
One and a half to two hours, I'd say. Took us a while to figure this out but then it ended quickly, of course. Before that we goofed around with the teleglove but to no end. We also found out afterwards that there's endless rock and ore on the other side (yes, we didn't fully read the description, shame on us!), so we never considered building any flying vehicle.
I will add another signpost saying something about rock and ore supplies on the other sky island.
I tried with K-Pone this evening but we didn't finish it completely :/ after 3 hours it got pretty frustrating and after a connection loss we decided to abort the mission.
However, the solution *seems* to work, it is just very hard to scale (Concrete is not webscale!)
However, the solution *seems* to work, it is just very hard to scale (Concrete is not webscale!)
I agree that it gets a bit frustrating after 3 hours where the last hour is spend in a never ending battle against the meteors. So I'll reduce them even a bit more on Normal difficulty.
Did you use telegloves to divert some meteors while crossing the gaps? I think this round just gets so much easier with 3+ players.
Did you use telegloves to divert some meteors while crossing the gaps? I think this round just gets so much easier with 3+ players.
Improved the round design a bit:
* Meteors now spawn even if the roof is closed.
* Normal is now a bit easier and Hard and Insane have new threats.
* Meteors now spawn even if the roof is closed.
* Normal is now a bit easier and Hard and Insane have new threats.
In that case put it on the sound list.
Though I'm not planning to do new sounds currently, but when I finally decide to do sounds again I probably will do a lot of them in one go.
Though I'm not planning to do new sounds currently, but when I finally decide to do sounds again I probably will do a lot of them in one go.
Something like this without the wind noise I suppose, and maybe a loud sound on impact.
But the real challenge is probably making it pleasant at the same time, because of the frequency in Clonk.
Btw. Why don't we have different sized meteors :D?
But the real challenge is probably making it pleasant at the same time, because of the frequency in Clonk.
Btw. Why don't we have different sized meteors :D?
Just played around a little bit with ZynAddSubFX and tried to make something that sounds like that. This is the result of ~5 mins of playing around with the parameters.I hereby license the file sweepdown2.ogg under the CC-BY license
Attachment: sweepdown2.ogg (46k)
We do have them with different size, just the particles make them look very similar. But yes, the sound should mainly not be too annoying.
> Why don't we have different sized meteors :D?
I'd say that's a bit pointless. You'd have different graphics but that's it really. And since the effect hides the meteor anyway, it'd be barely noticabe.
If, gameplay-wise, the explosions would differ (whyever you'd want that), there'd be just 'meteors you can ignore' and 'meteors you should care about'. But the actual impact on gameplay would probably be minimal / non-existent up to a point that it's pointless to bother scripting it.
Finally also a successful attempt by myself and with the help of Kanibal, K-Pone and Luchs it took us 2 hours (removing a bit of lag) to complete the round on Normal. I wanted to have a try with the lightning cannon, but then failed to host the correct version which we found out too late. I will do a bit more of bugfixing for the lightning cannon and we could do an attempt on Hard maybe over the weekend.
![[us]](/mwf/flags/us.png "United States")
> and we could do an attempt on Hard maybe over the weekend.
If it's on the weekend and the connection from USW is not too bad, I'd like to join! (I'm at -9 hours from Germany)
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