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Up Topic Development / Art Workshop / [Models] Bottles
- - By MimmoO Date 2010-03-05 22:15 Edited 2010-03-05 22:17
hi. i made two bottles. healing potion and mana potion. both have the same amount of polygons, 98.

look at the pictures. mouse hover them for description.

look.
Parent - By MimmoO Date 2010-03-05 22:17
i like them the third picture the most. i like sharp and edgey glass bottles.
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-03-05 22:18
I like the models.
But do not like the idea of turning OC into RPG
What are they supposed to be used for?

P.S. By the way, what 3d-program are you using?
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Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-03-05 22:21
i dont know. i thought that there could be some way of healing for the (old) original pack, and bread is just... i dont know, its weird. magical potions make more sense to me.
im using Cinema 4D 10.5
Parent - - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-03-05 22:25
I would greately like to resign using MANA in OC. Some other way of casting spells would be VERY NICE (see this thread)

P.S. I do not remember having subsurf in Cinema4D (but it surely should be) - it would make them look much better
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Parent - By MimmoO Date 2010-03-05 22:44
Do not like.
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-03-05 23:30
I would also like to see mana gone from OC. Magic points is an old cliché which has been around for so long, when there are better ways to deal with magic; such as magic books/items which have their own magic stores that recharge without needing to drink blueberry juice.
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Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-05 23:36

>which have their own magic stores that recharge without needing to drink blueberry juice.


So you actually don't want to get rid of magic energy but just put it into the items and make it recharging? :)
I actually like a central place of mana storage (could be recharging, too!), so that the player is not "rewarded" for using different spells (just because the other one has some mana left) but can decide on which spell he wants to spent his, well, mana
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-03-05 23:46
Well, I suppose it's not the centralized mana storage I'm against. It's the general inability to rely on magic, or the need of potions clogging your inventory because your magic either charges so slowly it's pointless or it just doesn't recharge at all, that I think is a tired idea that wasn't good the first time it was implemented. Magic should be about tactical timing and skill of it's use, not about waiting five minutes to use another spell. :/
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-06 08:18

>Magic should be about tactical timing and skill of it's use, not about waiting five minutes to use another spell. :/


That would be achieved with both: "recharging" spells and recharging mana of the sorcerer (the speed of the recharging is another question - it actually can be quite fast so that you can, for example, cast three spells every five seconds. But _you_ can decide what you want to cast: either three times the same spell or three different ones)
Parent - - By Ringwaul [ca] Date 2010-03-05 23:23
So a magical liquid which closes wounds when you drink it makes more sense than consuming nutrients which are used by the body to rebuild tissues? ;)
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Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-03-06 01:37
Actually yes. Magic explains it simply by just being magic. You cannot eat bread and expect it to heal wounds in an instant. That is just plain... Weird. :P Food is food. Stuff to quench hunger with. Not heal wounds.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-06 02:09
Magic bread anyone?
Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-03-06 14:33
To make it ever weirder? :P
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Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-03-06 16:41
Drinking magic is normal, but eating is weird? What does weird mean in your terms? Uncommon?
*goes to the kitchen to experiment a bit with magic*
Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-03-06 23:35
If there is a world where magic exists, then it makes perfect sense that magic could heal wounds. It is not farfetched either since people are used by the concept. However, healing by eating bread makes no sense at all on any level. If the bread heals because it is magical, then it is a very farfetched and forced situation. I have never ever had the though that the food that heals me in games is magical. I have just thought "omg, another weird game where food heals... lame...".

Even so, both of the situations (potion drinking and food eating) to get health is very common and I guess they are acceptable for a game. They are not at all neither unique or interesting. Both are EXTREMELY common and bland. I believe there is other more interesting stuff to be done with a game on the gain-health-part. There got to be some interesting ideas that has not been used like 1000 times. It could be elaborated on in many ways and differ between game modes (depending on what complexity the game is supposed to have in the end).

For example, one could have a game mode or scenario where health is much more valuable. No more insta heal in the houses or potions that fills your health bar. Then battles have to be fought more carefully with real considerations on the losses, because those are really going to be losses. Every lost HP (or every damaged HP on the enemy) is critical. This way of playing works with slow regen too. For an example of this in game, try the pack E.P.I.C for clonk rage. There the only way to heal is by resting in an apothecary and wait.

Another way to make it unique and interesting is to have no HP at all. Only a system where the clonk starts in the condition of having full health. Then different damages can affect him in different ways. Among others, killing him (example: Dwarf fortress. There are no HP at all in that game). This also allows the gameplay to take new routes that hasn't been explored as much. The whole HP way of doing it has been pretty explored by all kinds of games in all kinds of genres(half-life, zelda, diablo II, etc...), so it is pretty hard to make something new there.

It seems to me that often when games are made, developers tend to get stuck in already used concepts that are somehow automatically forced into a game by default, not even considering to do it in some way different. Sure, it gives games that works, but for me at least, it is not enough. I would rather encourage attempts to create really innovative games with fresch unused ideas than creating some semi-clone of other games that are so similar to everyting else that they are forgotten as soon as next semi-clone with slightly better graphics is released.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-07 00:11

> New concepts


The clonk could get smaller and smaller the mroe damage he takes. That would be something new
Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-03-07 00:12
Not really. And would that be fun?
Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-03-07 09:00
It would be funny. But not if I were to deal with it every time I play. Some special scenario with this idea could be funny... quite.
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Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-03-07 00:56
Hm, are you actually serious or are you parodising my post? :S If the latter, in what way is that good to the discussion?

Of course you cannot add new concepts on the fly completely random just becuase they are new concepts. That is why there has to be planning, discussion and such taking place before actually making the concepts in game. I do not say that everything new is good, I just say that it is unnessesary to get stuck in really old concepts without exploring new ideas (not nessesarily with implementation, but at least with discussion.).
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Parent - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-07 01:13
Your reply was exactly what I would have said if I wouldn't have parodised it :-P
Parent - - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-03-07 00:12
There is something left. Making fun of it. And btw, does it matter, why you get HP? There is no magic, and there is no fast-healing food. You can accept that that works in games. Why do you accept magic, but not healing food? And another: If you accept magic in fluids, why don't you accept that it could be in bakery? (PS: I'm not really going to reply to the answers to these questions. Or this will get huge.)
Parent - - By zagabar [se] Date 2010-03-07 01:06
Yep, of course it has to be fun. And my point is that IMO old ideas are running out of fun. New concepts that are well planned with thoughts behind them can be really fun, trust me.

>And btw, does it matter, why you get HP?


I guess it depends on the person who is playing, so it entirely has to do with subjectivity on this point.

>Why do you accept magic, but not healing food?


I accept magic becuase it gives an explanation. Magic can heal by using magical energy that exists in that world. That is simply how magic works. Food does not work this way.

>If you accept magic in fluids, why don't you accept that it could be in bakery?


I never said I didn't. If you somehow pointed out in the game that the bread and bakery is magical, then it would make all sense, but IMO it isn't really common to take for granted in games that food is magical.

>(PS: I'm not really going to reply to the answers to these questions. Or this will get huge.)


I don't really understand why this discussion appeared in the first place. I was just expressing my very personal opinion on what I think about healing foods in games. If you don't agree, it is completely fine on my side.
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Parent - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-03-07 09:02
...discussion about magic bread....
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-03-07 10:04

>>(PS: I'm not really going to reply to the answers to these questions. Or this will get huge.)
>I don't really understand why this discussion appeared in the first place. I was just expressing my very personal opinion on what I think about healing foods in games. If you don't agree, it is completely fine on my side.


This was more a warning for me than critism to you.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-07 09:02

>However, healing by eating bread makes no sense at all on any level


Objection! :o
I like the idea of slowly healing food. Just to have the situation once in a while that your enemy nearly kills you, you pull out your bred, start to eat and try to evade his attacks. omnomnom <3
Parent - - By Asmageddon [pl] Date 2010-03-07 11:46
Imagine a duel between knights. In a moment one throws his sword and starts to eat magic bread jumping around and evading enemy attacks.... isn't it... riddiculous?
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-07 16:09
I move you consider this!
Parent - By Atomclonk [de] Date 2010-03-06 16:47
Blueberrypie.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-06 01:29
Actually I don't think it would be a problem to use the old bottles for whatever we do with them in OpenClonk. Matthi made them and I am sure he still has the model files. Of course they are high-poly, so we'd only use them as renderings. But they are very fine renderings which look very good.

Perhaps we / you could even improve his potion bottles - like e.g. adding some sparkling-effects or whatever.
Parent - - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-06 08:19

>Actually I don't think it would be a problem to use the old bottles for whatever we do with them in OpenClonk. Matthi made them and I am sure he still has the model files. Of course they are high-poly, so we'd only use them as renderings. But they are very fine renderings which look very good.


Is matthes okay with that?
Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-06 14:16
I'm not sure if matthes needs to be OK with that. Matthi's models were never committed to the repository, only the renderings. So the models are not part of Clonk and thus not copyrighted by RWD. Also, I don't remember the contract to be this restrictive that it actually stripped the Urheberrecht away from the Urheber but only admitted unlimited right of use to Redwolf Design. But I don't have it lying around anymore to look it up. Do you?
Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-06 17:48

>Do you?


Yes - it sounds okay if the models were never committed there
Parent - By Günther [de] Date 2010-03-06 18:53

> Also, I don't remember the contract to be this restrictive that it actually stripped the Urheberrecht away from the Urheber but only admitted unlimited right of use to Redwolf Design


You cannot do that anyway - to get rid of your Urheberrecht, you have to die and wait 70 years, nothing else works in Germany - but the license was exclusive. The part about the models themselves not being exclusively licensed is probably true, however.

But let's also not forget that matthes is a nice guy and simply asking would probably be enough regardless.
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Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-03-06 12:01

>for whatever we do with them in OpenClonk


"Ich will eine Falsche!"? I advise against creating objects without even an idea of how they could be used ingame. You should first discuss out if there's even going to be any kind of potion at all.

>But they are very fine renderings which look very good.


Actually, I don't like most of them by now. The glass just looks wrong on some of them. Also, the bottles were designed for their potions only - the monster potion is thick and round, the wipf potion is high and slim, etc. I don't see why we would reuse those bottles instead of making fitting new ones which could also be low-poly enough to use as ingame model. I do still have those files, however.
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Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-03-06 15:15
Hi! While I actually like the graphics of your bottles, I want to introduce a different idea of health- (and maybe mana-, but thats another discussion) -regeneration items.

First of all: The feeling of "magic items" in the game.
As I feel it, the overall style of clonk is a setting of crooked science, as opposed to a fantasy style. So it doesn't feel right if there is something "perfect" like a drink in a perfectly shaped glass bottle that auto-magically restores your health points - why wouldn't our clonks also use magic to create perfect advanced machines, tools and weapons..?

I think it'd fit better into the setting if the ways of health generation were more plump - like eating bread and drinking from Flasks.

Secondly, the implementation:
Yes, we've all seen bread before, but this time, it should be different:
We should under no circumstances adapt the old fantasy potions healing effect or - even worse - that of the old knights bread. Those two items didn't really heal you - they gave you an extra life in every situation imaginable! I don't think I have to explain further why we don't want effects like those in everyday items in the standard game.

Let's instead have a look at the hazards medikit: There, the amount of healing depends on how long you are able to use it unhindered, and while using it, you are also rendered defenseless.

This healing effect forces you to time the use of healing items wisely.  If I want to restore much health during a fight, I need to get myself into a position where I won't be bothered by enemies for a few seconds. It could be adapted for eating/drinking fittingly: Using the item would make you sit down, and you only gain health as long as you don't cancel.
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Parent - - By Newton [de] Date 2010-03-06 15:58

>Using the item would make you sit down, and you only gain health as long as you don't cancel.


.oO(The clonk  pulls out a picnic-blancet, sits down and slowly eats his bread with fork and knife)
Parent - By Atomclonk [de] Date 2010-03-06 16:54
"Thats an exquisite vintage!"
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Parent - - By MrBeast [de] Date 2010-03-06 16:26
I personally do not like the healing system of Hazard. Yeah sure, the effect shouldn't be instant but the system from Hazard is more nerving because you can't do anything/not much while healing. I would prefer a system like the healing potion of the old fantasy pack. Maybe a bit less effect and a bit slower but please no limitation in movement.
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Parent - - By MimmoO Date 2010-03-06 17:02
I dont like the Hazard healing system either. It is just annoying when you need healing but as soon as you want to heal you, someone comes and disturbs you.

Another idea could be, that the healing is about as fast as the healing of the health potion, but stops as soon as you recieve any damage. So you cant heal yourself in a  combat, but can move yourself while healing.
Parent - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-03-06 17:10

> It is just annoying when you need healing but as soon as you want to heal you, someone comes and disturbs you.


Wow, that's quite surprising - I always thought it was etiquette in war to wait until the enemy has fully recovered!
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Parent - By Caesar [de] Date 2010-03-07 00:14

>I dont like the Hazard healing system either. It is just annoying when you need healing but as soon as you want to heal you, someone comes and disturbs you.


Did you ever note that that is intention? You shouldn't be able to run and collect healpacks while doing so.
Parent - - By Matthias [de] Date 2010-03-06 17:06
Well - the problem I want to counter is the following:
With those fantasy potions or the knight bread, you can't stop your enemy from healing himself, even when he is weaponless, weaker, and right in front of you. The healing effect from the fantasy potion didn't even stop when you were hit, so you could literally stand around and wait for the healing effect to finish until you had to worry about your enemy again - that's what I meant with "extra life".

Maybe we can agree on a middle ground looking somewhat like this: Upon use of, for example, a bread, it vanished from your inventory, and your clonk starts healing step by step (for each bite, of course ;)), graphically carrying the bread in his hands. As soon as you use another item or get hit, the bread disappears and the healing stops.
This would allow you to walk and jump as much as you want, but you can't really fight back or ignore enemy attacks.
How does that sound?
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Parent - By Zapper [de] Date 2010-03-06 17:50

>How does that sound?


A lot better :)
Parent - By AlteredARMOR [ua] Date 2010-03-07 12:11
Agreed
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Up Topic Development / Art Workshop / [Models] Bottles

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