![[es]](/mwf/flags/es.png "Spain")
I am surprised that no one else posted some concepts about the content of the game yet. So as I did with revised controls, I will get the discussion rolling about this much more interesting and wide topic than revised controls. So, make yourself a coffee or something and listen up... I wrote on this concept several days:Introduction
Here I will not talk about some clear concept as with the revised controls but just generally share my thoughts about the general appearance of the game. Since the engine code will be released soon and thus we will be able to use the repository, I think it is time to start thinking about this. I think Günther's idea to start from scratch (and only copy&paste the stuff we want from the original but otherwise write it new) opens up possibilities and I don't want us to miss them by making the same "mistakes" in the game design. I don't want to establish a firm concept on how we finally build the original pack, only share some thoughts on which we could later base the concepts.
Thoughts on Research and Tech Trees
In almost all RTS games nowadays, there is some sort of tech-tree, e.g. as upgrades of your structures. This concept is very cool for RTS games and I thought about if it is egible for Clonk... Well, it is not, and I will explain why not and what else is.
Research and tech trees keep the player from building the best and most powerful stuff right at the beginning. Because of the limited variety ressources in RTS games, he otherwise could do that. This adds depth into the game but in Clonk, there are no real "better" units or structures. Clonk is about mining, the processing and automation thereof. In Clonk, the concept of the tech trees is replaced by production lines. That is the same reason why the game The Settlers doesn't use the concept of research. The settlers, too, is about building an efficient economy based on production lines.
So, instead of building an artificial second limitation with research (like the research station does, actually), the focus should be on developing the production-tree. If it is too easy to build a certain structure or vehicle, then we need to add some other components to it that can only be produced in X. If it is too difficult to produce something, we should not require certain structures to be able to build it.
Emphasize Production lines
The second most important element of Clonk (after mining) are the production lines: Constructing buildings and vehicles to automate or easify mining, or to clear a path to somewhere. Right now, with Wood, Rock and Metal one can construct everything. This is a very flat production tree and can be improved.
Example: The lorry
You need the same buildings (furnace for metal, sawmill for wood and the workshop) to build a lorry than a cannon or blimp. Now, the lorry is basic mining equipment while the cannon or the blimp are advanced vehicles for warfare and such. But both can be build at the same point in the development. The same applies for for an elevator or a chemical plant (for creating flints to mine). Because a lorry is a very basic thing, you normally can buy the lorry already in the home base - as a way to to circumvent the whole production tree. I don't think this is a good solution, actually.
Basically, if you got a sawmill and a functioning metal-production (rock is normally easy accessible) OR enough gold to circumvent all this (to a limited degree), you are king - and at the end of any production tree or automation. Even though you just managed to build your first lorry.
Another smaller structure, lets name it "tools workshop", which does not require processed materials and a wooden lorry which is buildable in it would be one solution. And this could apply to many things. We have to break with the "one structure for all vehicles" and "one structure for all items" thinking. No other game that I can think of makes this seperation, I think this is - even though not obvious - a relict from Clonk 3.
Shortcuts with gold
As I said, gold (clunker) is some kind of shortcut to circumvent production lines. Especially at the beginning of a Clonk round, where the player doesn't have any production lines yet, the player is very dependent on this shortcut. Later, he has so much gold that it doesn't matter any more, clunker gets invaluable because one has tons of it - the only (artificial) limit then is that the home base doesn't sell any processed materials any more and all your gold gets practically worthless.
I think, yes, gold as a shortcut is an interesting element, but it should be very rare and very valuable. Moreover, there is the problem of the exorbitant growth of your clunker until it is worthless. I haven't thought about a solution to this but limiting the stuff you can sell (and buy) at the home base might be an option (only gold?). However, to invent game elements which require a constant consumption of resources like hunger, thirst, cold etc. only turn out annoying. Wherever possible, the coal plant is no option as long as the windmill is available.
Automation is king
In the Settlers, the efficiency of your economy defines your success in the game. In Clonk, after the lorry, teraflints and elevator it's over. There is no way to be more efficient than that - and actually, this will be more than enough. One teraflint of gold lumps will make you already a rich man. So my idea is to make the Clonks
- start more at the beginning: The explosives available are smaller than the flints now, to build bigger explosives requires different structures or materials than smaller ones, the lorry is not the non-plus-ultra but only can store as much materials as the size of the lorry suggests (e.g. ~10) - generally it's harder and smaller but because of well-thought-out production lines does not require any shortcuts with gold (as it is rare too)
- and offer more possibilities to make it more efficient as well as offer more solutions to develop (German: "erschließen") new areas with a variety of tools, structures or vehicles such as ropeways that automatically transport materials from A to B, cable cars, pickaxes, advanced bridges or tower cranes etc. etc. (I'll open up a topic with brainstorming ideas for such tools later)
Settlement Goals and Campaign design
Some games, perhaps especially Clonk, appeal to be played freely, without a goal. However, if the goal of the game is interesting (and challenging), it can only add up to the gameplay since the original elements of settlement are still used. And, after all, the GameOver dialogue offers that one can continue to play this round. A fitting example is World of Goo: Just without a goal would be the level "World of Goo corporation" where one can freely play around with his goo (ahem). With a goal and some story, like in all other levels, the game experience is is much more rich.
Good goals
A good goal doesn't seem generic. I don't like goals like goldmine, oremine or earn X000 settlement points. These generic goals are more ...excuses for goals and don't enrich the gameplay, imo: You will mine gold anyway but searching for the last pixel of gold is not fun. You will build structures anyway but is it fun to build 3 castles next to each other just to fulfil the goal? A good goal, in my definition, is a goal where you need to build a good infrastructure and economy to fulfil it but is not required by the goal itself.
A good settlement goal for Clonk is basically "find that, get there" in all varieties. This is not limited at all and can include a vast variety of different goals. To "get there", can be very challenging. Some examples: Most missions in the original game like Up high (collect these statue parts), seven keys (collect dangerous stuff), sky village (find the construction plans), last will (get the grandpa to the ocean), almost all adventure-settlement-rounds (get there, face that) and the different quests in Arctic in FarWorlds almost all involve "find that, get there".
Campaigns
Which brings me to Divine Prophecy. It wasn't that special. but it is quoted so often as THE example for a good settle-campaign because it mixed together an interesting economy with "find that, get there" goals and most importantly, a storyline with roleplay-elements (as a campaign). The last point adds more depth to the game and (a bit) dull goals can be covered by an interesting storyline ("Aha, I need to collect 1000 gold because we want to build that temple out of gold...").
I'd like to see content that is - instead of grouped by themes like Knights, Fantasy, Worlds (and formerly Dynamic Worlds, Easy Worlds, Landscapes,...) - grouped by campaign. The open source game Battle of Wesnoth for example only offer two things: campaigns and multi-player battles.
Melees
Since network got more playable, the melees got more and more popular. Now, the most rounds that are played online are melee rounds, we got a league and so on. I can't say so much about melees actually because I mainly thought about production lines and settlement stuff. The genre of multiplayer melees is clearly distinguished from settlement rounds - there are no popular rounds where one first has to settle a bit and then attack the enemy.
Fighting
All that I wanted to say has basically been said in the revision of controls thread: To make fighting as a (relatively) new core element of Clonk gaming more interesting, there must be some changes. Taking apart the story, why was DSA (as the first big fight-adventure-round of Clonk) so popular, why InExantros or Knights? It introduced a new fighting style the original pack didn't have. The original pack offered very basic weapons as vehicles which almost suggested a CannonHill fighting style.
So to make the fighting that has been introduced with Knights and been further developed with Fantasy, M&M, InExantros and latest, Zed (not released yet, ask Clonkonaut and boni) a fixed part of OpenClonk should be one goal of the project. As said, timi introduced some cool ideas in the Controls revised thread on how to improve fighting.
Also, InExantros, the M&M adventure and DSA are not Melees. With a good fighting system, OpenClonk can more easily support adventures which would add even more fun to the gameplay. For example create enemies that are really fun to combat and not these dumb monsters where the best tactic is to let them choke in earth... but are otherwise not really dangerous, just annoying, as they run around without any orientation.
Summary
- Revision of production lines and resulting development trees
- Eliminate role of gold/clunker as an important part of the production line and make it rare and valuable
- Focus on buildings, vehicles and tools that are useful e.g. as part of the production line
- Create settlement campaigns with storylines, good goals and rpg elements rather than single scenarios with free play
- The fighting system must be improved, we need enemies that are fun to combat
![[de]](/mwf/flags/de.png "Germany")
>Revision of production lines and resulting development trees
I agree, I'd suggest changing the gold system as we know it to a more advanced system, where gold isn't as easy to get. The gold as we know it could be changed to gold coins, which need coal, (raw) gold and maybe iron ore/metal to be produced, requiring an advanced infrastructure and making it harder to circumvent everything, but not impossible, in case a "production deadlock" occurs, for example you use all your metal, but need a blimp to get more.
> I am surprised that no one else posted some concepts about the content of the game yet.
You expect too much in such a short time. ;)
> Moreover, there is the problem of the exorbitant growth of your clunker until it is worthless. (...)
Some scenarios solve the "inflation" of the clunker by adjusting the price of goods depending on what you buy or sell. Iirc, in Seven Keys, one item from your homebase material becomes more expensive the more you buy it. While, personally, I found this annoying, I've heard others like the idea.
OTOH, I would like to see more actual uses for your clunkers. Really, at the moment they just serve for buying stuff in your homebase. What about: Research for clunkers? Upgrading buildings (to some later tech level, or just a minor enhancement for making them more productive)? Accelerating a single production process, like seen in Civilization?
> Moreover, there is the problem of the exorbitant growth of your clunker until it is worthless. (...)
> A good goal doesn't seem generic.
I'm taking these two sentences together, as they often correlate. I agree. A good example of this is the mission "Frontier": Somewhat challenging in the beginning, but after the "initial phase" is over, scenarios of this kind get dead boring.
> Settlement Goals and Campaign design
Some time ago, I wrote down a couple of thoughts about what I think could make a settlement scenario a "good" scenario, being a traditional settlement player after all. I can see if I find that again and share it later with you.
> Iirc, in Seven Keys, one item from your homebase material becomes more expensive the more you buy
Just to clarify: You buy it for a higher price where the standard home base would not allow you to buy it anymore. It was meant as a small adjustment to get around those "I need one more wood for my sawmill" deadlocks. Plus doubling the price still sends a strong message of "look into producing this as soon as possible". This could sort-of be replaced by doubling prices from the start, removing the buy-limit and just giving the Clonks their start material right away.
> Wherever possible, the coal plant is no option as long as the windmill is available.
I think it would be used much more if the coal would not burn coal when no energy is used and the elevator only used energy while moving. That would eleminate the constant consumption and make coal something that you use to do stuff just like flints for mining and wood for building.
> The open source game Battle of Wesnoth for example only offer two things: campaigns and multi-player battles.
And "multiplayer" battles where the other "players" are AIs. Just like Monster Hunt ;-)
I think the combination of Melee and settlement could be vastly improved by a longer chain of successively more powerful weapons and defense options. Basically the same issue you identified for the production lines. That way, one could create a melee where the player who builds the fastest could win by blasting through the other player's wooden tower with one teraflint while repelling hostile super flints with an advanced stone tower.
Good night. *yawn*
>I think the combination of Melee and settlement could be vastly improved by a longer chain of successively more powerful weapons and defense options. Basically the same issue you identified for the production lines
I agree. But I would rather focus not on "the fastest player to build, the most probable to win", but "the smartest player is the most probable to win".
That means that resource gathering and using production lines after the startup should become more automatic, giving the chance for the player to focus on defensive and offensive tactics, giving him time to think of what build to defend his base, where to place it and where, instead having to think everytime about how to build it.
A big like RTS as Newton said: when you have access to something, and you need it, you select it and wait...
Instead of making it "an update option to buy" like in RTS you could use clonk's production lines as newton suggests. But when you set up the production lines, you should be able to select what you want to buy/build and see your production line (through your secondary clonks) work almost automatically, so you can focus on the melee
>I think the combination of Melee and settlement could be vastly improved by a longer chain of successively more powerful weapons and defense options
Don't forget that you are talking about long settlement melees which are not very often played in Clonk Rage nowadays. When the player plays a Melee he mostly wants to fight and not to do two hours of settlement to be able to produce a cannon :)
And my theory is that that's not because nobody wants to settle, but because we don't have any good settlement melees, because the production lines simply are not designed for that.
In my experience it is because you cannot find trusty players to play longer games with using the masterserver. For Melees where you have to rely on your teammates you always need some good friends (which are not going to leave after five minutes). In contrast faster melees like Minor Melee can also be played with all different kinds of players who use the masterserver for finding games (and who will leave after five minutes if they're not going to win)(Of course settlement melees can be a lot of fun. I just mean we should not block ourselves from "other" melee types than settlement just because we make everything only available through a lot of production and possibly even kick out the buying system)
Who says that settlement melees have to be played in teams? Or that they have to last for hours?And nobody is going to prevent anyone from creating traditional melees :-)
![[fi]](/mwf/flags/fi.png "Finland")
Knights and lava lakes, anyone? I remember my longest game with CrazyObject going on for over four hours.
Well, combat has two sides: The action and the tactics, sometimes not clearly distinguishable.
Most 'strategy' games have balance-based tactic decisions. The ultimate question for most cases is: Do I attack now, or have I got to grow stronger? Clonk did and does not do this. When I think of CoFuT, you can decide between some uneqal tactics, but you always have a second choice. (okay, CoFuT has fallen out of favour, but I could name tonns of team-melees working like that. )
Most 'strategy' games have balance-based tactic decisions. The ultimate question for most cases is: Do I attack now, or have I got to grow stronger? Clonk did and does not do this. When I think of CoFuT, you can decide between some uneqal tactics, but you always have a second choice. (okay, CoFuT has fallen out of favour, but I could name tonns of team-melees working like that. )
The combination of Settlement and Melee is something me and my friends have tried to do for quite a while.
There is a few big problems, when it comes to that, it's just too easy to destroy some stuff. Throw 1 flint at the windmill, and he have no power and linekits+ rebuildcosts for windmill. Whole his economy died that way, and coal never was an option since you had no control over it, so it's REALLY expensive to use.
There is TOO many exploitive things to do. Throw liquid granite/cement and he can't mine, his elevator breaks, and maybe you can "destroy" buildings. Sure there is that rule no metal infront of door, but that isn't really enough.
Disconnecting linekits is VERY easy and you can with ease create a helluva mess, especielly if you start throw stuff out of the screen.
On the other hand when it comes to destroy some buildings, you require a lorry filled with flints if you plan to destroy something bigger, like a castle or something, sure it shouldn't be easy to destroy, but seriously, especially compared to the very weak windmill...
The other thing which already got some love, was the production line, there isn't really much to build. When you have cannons and blimps, you have the highest level of warefare. And that took you one mining run, and if you want to make it on your own, you even need that building to do proper mining(lorry).
The semi-successful settlement-melee experiments we have done;
Farm-melee; to get more stuff to focus on, farmerpack and melee had a kid.
You can't heal in the house for gold, you slowly regenerate while not being hungry, flag and gold barely plays any part at all, and in the middle of the level is there a giant gap to avoid the players getting to each other too early.
The possibilty to destroy the opponents crop and starve him exist, and stuff like that.
Pallkars-melee; Each player start with 5 pallkars nests, which will produce pallkarses for you. Not very much settlement, but you build a minor base, and wait for the pallkarses to grow, and they also gives a nice defense for you. They also work as a distraction force on attacks.
4th Dusk; Each player start with a dark castle FILLED with different stuff from ZAGAPACK. Nights and days enabled, then you have 3 days to prepare your traps, then people attack each other. The thing that made this possible was the abundance of different tools, items and stuff.
There have also been several other attempts, but without any add-ons it's hard to make it interesting enough, since the weapons you can use are very limited.
The clonk I've been playing haven't been the same clonk as the clonk for other people, we played stuff that was made mainly by Zagabar, and without it, we wouldn't really have that fun we have/had :P I don't think our way is better, or that we have the absolute answers, but since we have been doing and looking into similar things what you are doing here, I think at least we should tell you how we played clonk :P
This is something we found annoying, and guess how the pallkars was born ;) Maybe OpenClonk should look into them, and maybe find some way to get them into it?
They are ALOT more fun than the monster, which just roam about, they actually target clonks, and can breach most defenses. :P
Zagapack; first pack made by Zagabar containing LOTS of different things; zombierevive-staffs, revive crystals, strange type of flints(shrapnel, radiation shrapnel, oil flints etc etc), mines, resource producing trees, man-eating plants. Simply you have LOTS of stuff to make nasty traps with, and possible attacks.
(pits with oilproducing trees, and a mine = fire trap, trees that produces zaps of different kinds(some that sets stuff on fire, some that explode on hit, instant death and more))
Pallkars; hive-like creatures, that looks like sideway-cones, that jumps around. Poisonous, and actively targets and hunts Clonks. Not very smart but because they exist in all kinds and are fairly many, they can breach most defenses. Best way to understand them is to play against them.
FarmerPack; you make your own farm, grow crops, get cows, hens and different kind of animals. Your clonks can't heal in the house, but instead regenerate slowly when not being hungry. When the clonk is starving it slowly loses life, so if you doesn't feed your clonk they will die. You have a hunger-meter next to the portrait to so you can see when the clonks need to be fed, and they also give messages when being hungry.
There is a few big problems, when it comes to that, it's just too easy to destroy some stuff. Throw 1 flint at the windmill, and he have no power and linekits+ rebuildcosts for windmill. Whole his economy died that way, and coal never was an option since you had no control over it, so it's REALLY expensive to use.
There is TOO many exploitive things to do. Throw liquid granite/cement and he can't mine, his elevator breaks, and maybe you can "destroy" buildings. Sure there is that rule no metal infront of door, but that isn't really enough.
Disconnecting linekits is VERY easy and you can with ease create a helluva mess, especielly if you start throw stuff out of the screen.
On the other hand when it comes to destroy some buildings, you require a lorry filled with flints if you plan to destroy something bigger, like a castle or something, sure it shouldn't be easy to destroy, but seriously, especially compared to the very weak windmill...
The other thing which already got some love, was the production line, there isn't really much to build. When you have cannons and blimps, you have the highest level of warefare. And that took you one mining run, and if you want to make it on your own, you even need that building to do proper mining(lorry).
The semi-successful settlement-melee experiments we have done;
Farm-melee; to get more stuff to focus on, farmerpack and melee had a kid.
You can't heal in the house for gold, you slowly regenerate while not being hungry, flag and gold barely plays any part at all, and in the middle of the level is there a giant gap to avoid the players getting to each other too early.
The possibilty to destroy the opponents crop and starve him exist, and stuff like that.
Pallkars-melee; Each player start with 5 pallkars nests, which will produce pallkarses for you. Not very much settlement, but you build a minor base, and wait for the pallkarses to grow, and they also gives a nice defense for you. They also work as a distraction force on attacks.
4th Dusk; Each player start with a dark castle FILLED with different stuff from ZAGAPACK. Nights and days enabled, then you have 3 days to prepare your traps, then people attack each other. The thing that made this possible was the abundance of different tools, items and stuff.
There have also been several other attempts, but without any add-ons it's hard to make it interesting enough, since the weapons you can use are very limited.
The clonk I've been playing haven't been the same clonk as the clonk for other people, we played stuff that was made mainly by Zagabar, and without it, we wouldn't really have that fun we have/had :P I don't think our way is better, or that we have the absolute answers, but since we have been doing and looking into similar things what you are doing here, I think at least we should tell you how we played clonk :P
>For example create enemies that are really fun to combat and not these dumb monsters where the best tactic is to let them choke in earth... but are otherwise not really dangerous, just annoying, as they run around without any orientation.>
This is something we found annoying, and guess how the pallkars was born ;) Maybe OpenClonk should look into them, and maybe find some way to get them into it?
They are ALOT more fun than the monster, which just roam about, they actually target clonks, and can breach most defenses. :P
Zagapack; first pack made by Zagabar containing LOTS of different things; zombierevive-staffs, revive crystals, strange type of flints(shrapnel, radiation shrapnel, oil flints etc etc), mines, resource producing trees, man-eating plants. Simply you have LOTS of stuff to make nasty traps with, and possible attacks.
(pits with oilproducing trees, and a mine = fire trap, trees that produces zaps of different kinds(some that sets stuff on fire, some that explode on hit, instant death and more))
Pallkars; hive-like creatures, that looks like sideway-cones, that jumps around. Poisonous, and actively targets and hunts Clonks. Not very smart but because they exist in all kinds and are fairly many, they can breach most defenses. Best way to understand them is to play against them.
FarmerPack; you make your own farm, grow crops, get cows, hens and different kind of animals. Your clonks can't heal in the house, but instead regenerate slowly when not being hungry. When the clonk is starving it slowly loses life, so if you doesn't feed your clonk they will die. You have a hunger-meter next to the portrait to so you can see when the clonks need to be fed, and they also give messages when being hungry.
Uff, I lost you in the last part of your post about Palkars and ZAGAPACK. But I can agree on the first paragraphs you wrote. I think the answer to this would be to be able build automatic defences which makes it more dangerous for clonks running amok in your base. Either in the form of AI-guarding-clonks or any other AI like defense towers. Caedes (unfortunately not released yet) uses this and it's fun and effective. The other solution would be to be able to build (better) walls and such which just hold off enemy clonks. E.g. something like the force air shield.P.S: Quote with >
Maybe the Wizardtower can spell like in "M&M Swamp of Death" Lightnings autmatically on the incomming enemy?
Isn't that a bit boring? :)I would rather like defense systems which at least appear to be smart. Like an automatically aiming cannon tower. The attacking clonk has at least a chance to dodge there
So what should the autmatically aiming cannon tower shoot? Flints that damage the own base? Arrow which can take the enemy's knight? Stones that are rolling around and may damage the owner? And should it need to have shootmaterials like gunpowder or energy?
If it's totally automatic it would be over-powered. It should require maintainance and cost something to use. You can limit the effect of rolling stones with loams, and with placing of the tower you can even use flints.
Also maybe something completely else, more like a turret would be better, shooting bullets or something similar.
Problem is that automated turrets easy become either useless or too good.
A possibilty would be a slow-firing turret that locks on to a place and fires a few secs later, it's harmless on it's own as long as you move the clonk and jump around with it, but if you are preoccupied with something else it may be able to hit you, so it need to be with something else to actually be dangerous...
Also maybe something completely else, more like a turret would be better, shooting bullets or something similar.
Problem is that automated turrets easy become either useless or too good.
A possibilty would be a slow-firing turret that locks on to a place and fires a few secs later, it's harmless on it's own as long as you move the clonk and jump around with it, but if you are preoccupied with something else it may be able to hit you, so it need to be with something else to actually be dangerous...
if it is possible to destroy it- disable it (cutting electricity, destroying the turret, etc) it should not be that over-powered imho..
automatic systems might be good, you just have to design a good balance way to have equal strength between defence and offence
automatic systems might be good, you just have to design a good balance way to have equal strength between defence and offence
>Arrow which can take the enemy's knight? Stones that are rolling around and may damage the owner? And should it need to have shootmaterials like gunpowder or energy?
Sure why not? The player can decide what it shoots by putting stuff into it. Clonk is about having every possibility. If you want to shoot Firebombs you can even do that. If you rather want to shoot smaller stuff, you could use Ammunition-like stuff (we actually have that atm for the anti-air-cannon)
This reminds me a bit of FAP or Star Empires: You can choose the weapons, and if you choose rockets in FAP, it won't shoot at people.You mainly need balanced choice of weapons and the possibility of changing them without having to build a new tower.
Why not advancing that Attack/Defend/Guard/Arm thing, e.g. you move your knight into a cannon-tower, and the knight uses the ammo in it?
[ ]Attack with moving[x]Attack from current position (stay in buildings, hold objects grabbed)[ ]Get ammo if empty[x]Hide if attacked (only if not defending (no bow, no ammo, etc)[ ]Open dors for returning allys
ZAGAPACK is a 20megabyte objectpack, with LOTS of strange stuff... The thing is simply lots of stuff to use for defense, offense and stuff :P
Pallkars is some strange creatures that are hostile to clonks. They are dangerous, and can get past most defenses, and exist in all kinds. You should either ask Zagabar for them or check try to aquire them any other way. Personally I find them really interesting.
I see if I can clean up the post a bit :P
Pallkars is some strange creatures that are hostile to clonks. They are dangerous, and can get past most defenses, and exist in all kinds. You should either ask Zagabar for them or check try to aquire them any other way. Personally I find them really interesting.
I see if I can clean up the post a bit :P
By Anonymous ![[se]](/mwf/flags/se.png "Sweden")
Date 2009-05-03 12:30
What Wertilq says is true. The gold is far to easy obtainalbe and far to rewarding. That is what I have had in mind mostly when I made packs. I can host up my packs if you wanna see them in action.
More info on pallkarspack can be found here: http://en.wiki.nosebud.de/wiki/Pallkars
The pack itself: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Pallkarspack.c4d
A map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Pallkarshunt.c4s
You need this for the map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Trappack.c4d
I think there are some unfixed bugs with this release that might confuse the targeting system for the pallkars. Not sure.
Farmerpack is currently being reworked, more info here: http://www.clonkforge.net/projects.php?pr=1084
For the old version of the pack, visit this url: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/Farmerpack.c4d.zip
A map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/build grow.c4s
Needs this: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Trappack.c4d
ZAGAPACK is in no state of releasing. it has many errors and bugs, if anyone is interested in the contents, contact me.
More info on pallkarspack can be found here: http://en.wiki.nosebud.de/wiki/Pallkars
The pack itself: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Pallkarspack.c4d
A map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Pallkarshunt.c4s
You need this for the map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Trappack.c4d
I think there are some unfixed bugs with this release that might confuse the targeting system for the pallkars. Not sure.
Farmerpack is currently being reworked, more info here: http://www.clonkforge.net/projects.php?pr=1084
For the old version of the pack, visit this url: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/Farmerpack.c4d.zip
A map: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/build grow.c4s
Needs this: www.pallkars.net/~zagabar/clonk/Trappack.c4d
ZAGAPACK is in no state of releasing. it has many errors and bugs, if anyone is interested in the contents, contact me.
I totally agree with that idea of enhancing the importance of a good production line. But we would really have to automate stuff. It is really no fun at all to go the way from your homebase to your workshop ten times because you need some goods there. There was this "Settlerclonk AI" in the AI-Contest of CP. You could tell him "everytime you find coal in this building, bring it to the other building. And if you find metal there, bring it here".Something like that would be a must :)
>we need enemies that are fun to combat
Any ideas? I really like coding AIs :)
> Any ideas? I really like coding AIs :)
We first need better ways to combat them. And they'll probably still have to cheat like the monsters, but hopefully in a less obvious way.
It is not a problem (in CR) to write a good AI which combating makes fun and doesnt cheat obviously. Ive done this multiple times.
>Any ideas? I really like coding AIs :)
I think, it would be good if there had more types of doing damage, and they'd exchange it in a somewhat intelligent way. It is not like, search flint, dig up, trow. Its generally the same thing as complained for all battles.
Okay, example: Fantasy-AI, you'll know about that first mage AI in dragon rock. It just stands there, sometimes casts a spell that, ehr, doesn't really endanger you, it is some kind of annoying, that it exists, but it's not worth to kill it, cause that would be more work than dealing with it's attacks.
So what I'd like to see, though I can hardly imagine that with todays pathfinder and stuff, a mage that moves, tries to get the next/best position for an attack, and fires the best weapon for the actual situation. That would require some type of precalculation, or checking the whole situation every time for every group of enemies and every weapon. Real hard. But a thing, that would be easy to change: the homewarp.
>I totally agree with that idea of enhancing the importance of a good production line. But we would really have to automate stuff. It is really no fun at all to go the way from your homebase to your workshop ten times because you need some goods there.
exactly what I said too: less repetetive stuff, more diversified production lines and more power on automatic systems when a production line is ready (as already said, faster automatic transports, building queues, automatic resource gathering if required and the production line is ready, etc)
First of all, let me say that generally speaking I found your post wonderful for ideas and as an initial post for brainstorming.
But now I will be more specific about my thoughts:
I love the idea of powering the production line, but with some reserves. I truly agree that to buy powerful vehicles or structures you should "work harder" so it takes more time and the satisfaction it's bigger at the end.
Anyway:
1) I don't like the idea of smaller flints or anyway "longer resource collecting of one type" (like gold). I think that (as you said in the goal section) collecting and re-collecting and re-doing repetitive actions is not that funny. I would prefer a system that requires more "material/energy transformations") (for example water tunnels/wells to make tree grows if they are not next to water, instead of creating a train you have to create the motor, the exterior part, and then build it together in a workshop, and so on). This system would require anyway more steps to reach a certain goal for the player, but it would not be merely gold/ore/coal mining, but it would be more diversified, challenging, scenario-specific and funny.
I already find it tedious sometimes to always have to start a scenario gold mining a lot. If it would require even more energies and time I would find it boring. Instead making the production lines of vehicles, structures and objects NOT cost more, but cost different specific objects (that requires specific production lines) would be funny imho
2)It would be mandatory that once you have worked a lot to create a production line for, for example, a cannon, you could build them quite easily afterwards. To make reach the cannon technology longer is very fine with me. To take three/four times to build EVERY cannon at the end it becomes boring. As with the analogy with RTS= once you reach the research level, you can use it whenever you want
3) I would keep research updates for very very specific things: for example you could buy/research different magic schools at the wizard tower, or different weapon technology in a lab (so it could diversify strategies and the way a scenario is played). But I agree that I would not rely on that for the main production lines
4)I LOVE the idea of making it more automatic. Once you have fatigued a lot to create sawmills, and reach a certain technology, you should have the chance to click on a clonk and in a menu click "harvest wood" and have it automatically search for trees, taking to the sawmills etc (not only one tree, but keep looking for new ones, etc). Exactly like in the SETTLERS system, once you complete a production line (and do it at first you have to do it "manually"), you should be able to have automatically the advantages of it: cutting threes down and taking them from one side of the map to the other can be very funny at the beginning of the scenario, found yourself still doing it after 2 hours might become boring...
You should need automatic system for transport materials from A to B (if there is a reachable path between them), object construction queues, and the other stuff that I quote from your "B" point
TOTALLY agree on this section. TOTALLY. Mostly on limit the generic settlement scenarios, and giving them a specific purposes (ex: you need to build a castle there because a king is crying because he has lost his, so he can give you a magic amulet that allows you to call a bird that can take you over a mountain etc etc etc). I just add here that maybe even physics enigms could be cool since I think even on this side clonk can do alot more than it already does. It allows a very deep physic interaction (even if not still realistic on many things), so it would be cool to give the gameplay some new ways of exploit it to remove obstacles and solve enigmas.
true but I would not love discard the idea because I still LOVE it... it just that they don't work quite well because of many reasons. One solution would be again a more automatic system that could allow you to advance in economy and production giving you the time to focus on defence and attack. Do well the two things at the same time I guess it's hard for everybody
I think you read my ideas on fighting on other threads, so I think you can guess that I agree with you again :)
But now I will be more specific about my thoughts:
>So, instead of building an artificial second limitation with research (like the research station does, actually), the focus should be on developing the production-tree
>Automation is king
I love the idea of powering the production line, but with some reserves. I truly agree that to buy powerful vehicles or structures you should "work harder" so it takes more time and the satisfaction it's bigger at the end.
Anyway:
1) I don't like the idea of smaller flints or anyway "longer resource collecting of one type" (like gold). I think that (as you said in the goal section) collecting and re-collecting and re-doing repetitive actions is not that funny. I would prefer a system that requires more "material/energy transformations") (for example water tunnels/wells to make tree grows if they are not next to water, instead of creating a train you have to create the motor, the exterior part, and then build it together in a workshop, and so on). This system would require anyway more steps to reach a certain goal for the player, but it would not be merely gold/ore/coal mining, but it would be more diversified, challenging, scenario-specific and funny.
I already find it tedious sometimes to always have to start a scenario gold mining a lot. If it would require even more energies and time I would find it boring. Instead making the production lines of vehicles, structures and objects NOT cost more, but cost different specific objects (that requires specific production lines) would be funny imho
2)It would be mandatory that once you have worked a lot to create a production line for, for example, a cannon, you could build them quite easily afterwards. To make reach the cannon technology longer is very fine with me. To take three/four times to build EVERY cannon at the end it becomes boring. As with the analogy with RTS= once you reach the research level, you can use it whenever you want
3) I would keep research updates for very very specific things: for example you could buy/research different magic schools at the wizard tower, or different weapon technology in a lab (so it could diversify strategies and the way a scenario is played). But I agree that I would not rely on that for the main production lines
4)I LOVE the idea of making it more automatic. Once you have fatigued a lot to create sawmills, and reach a certain technology, you should have the chance to click on a clonk and in a menu click "harvest wood" and have it automatically search for trees, taking to the sawmills etc (not only one tree, but keep looking for new ones, etc). Exactly like in the SETTLERS system, once you complete a production line (and do it at first you have to do it "manually"), you should be able to have automatically the advantages of it: cutting threes down and taking them from one side of the map to the other can be very funny at the beginning of the scenario, found yourself still doing it after 2 hours might become boring...
You should need automatic system for transport materials from A to B (if there is a reachable path between them), object construction queues, and the other stuff that I quote from your "B" point
>Settlement Goals and Campaign design
TOTALLY agree on this section. TOTALLY. Mostly on limit the generic settlement scenarios, and giving them a specific purposes (ex: you need to build a castle there because a king is crying because he has lost his, so he can give you a magic amulet that allows you to call a bird that can take you over a mountain etc etc etc). I just add here that maybe even physics enigms could be cool since I think even on this side clonk can do alot more than it already does. It allows a very deep physic interaction (even if not still realistic on many things), so it would be cool to give the gameplay some new ways of exploit it to remove obstacles and solve enigmas.
>there are no popular rounds where one first has to settle a bit and then attack the enemy.
true but I would not love discard the idea because I still LOVE it... it just that they don't work quite well because of many reasons. One solution would be again a more automatic system that could allow you to advance in economy and production giving you the time to focus on defence and attack. Do well the two things at the same time I guess it's hard for everybody
>Fighting
I think you read my ideas on fighting on other threads, so I think you can guess that I agree with you again :)
add another quick thought:
making production lines more complex should go towards more choices, more steps, more difficulty to think about the right decision. Not towards just more time spent on resource collecting, imho. That means more structures/objects/types of resource needed, but not making the quantity of resources required rise a lot or making collecting the same quantity of resources twice as slow.
Another idea (just to make you think about alternatives, I don't think I like it too much) I just had: you could have a "clone structure" that requires an initial long production line to be set manually to allow you to build it. When built it could give you the chance to create new clonks. (the ones you can actually buy from the beginning). And you could use these additional clonks in a more smarter way, giving complex orders to them "collect gold" "harvest wood" etc instead of using them only exactly as the first one. This would assure that the player needs to keep doing in mostly every scenario the hard work which actual clonk gameplay is about, giving them anyway the chance to make it more automatically when more clonks are available. This would make settlement/melee hybrid scenarios more playable and making the clonks more useful (several times when you have to focus on something very specific, you have to leave the others idle somewhere).
But maybe this idea is a bit too extreme because it would make clonk way more similar to a very complex rts when more clonks are available, than the actual gameplay. (It can be good or bad in relationship with the tastes).
But also maybe you could implement a system where other clonks can just make something is already available (harvest wood only if sawmill+energy available, etc), requiring anyway that the player always set ups everything manually (and so preserving the actual gameplay).
I just said it to make you think about different ideas :p
making production lines more complex should go towards more choices, more steps, more difficulty to think about the right decision. Not towards just more time spent on resource collecting, imho. That means more structures/objects/types of resource needed, but not making the quantity of resources required rise a lot or making collecting the same quantity of resources twice as slow.
Another idea (just to make you think about alternatives, I don't think I like it too much) I just had: you could have a "clone structure" that requires an initial long production line to be set manually to allow you to build it. When built it could give you the chance to create new clonks. (the ones you can actually buy from the beginning). And you could use these additional clonks in a more smarter way, giving complex orders to them "collect gold" "harvest wood" etc instead of using them only exactly as the first one. This would assure that the player needs to keep doing in mostly every scenario the hard work which actual clonk gameplay is about, giving them anyway the chance to make it more automatically when more clonks are available. This would make settlement/melee hybrid scenarios more playable and making the clonks more useful (several times when you have to focus on something very specific, you have to leave the others idle somewhere).
But maybe this idea is a bit too extreme because it would make clonk way more similar to a very complex rts when more clonks are available, than the actual gameplay. (It can be good or bad in relationship with the tastes).
But also maybe you could implement a system where other clonks can just make something is already available (harvest wood only if sawmill+energy available, etc), requiring anyway that the player always set ups everything manually (and so preserving the actual gameplay).
I just said it to make you think about different ideas :p
What about making gold mining more interessting by hiding the gold? If the gold wasn't a yellowish texture but a rock texture (same as the normal rock, or with slight differences that gives the player an idea about where he could find some gold) the player had to use a flint on different sources of rock to find a vein of gold (the texture may then change a bit, to make it easier for the player to get the rest of the vein). The same could be applied to ore, coal etc.. Perhaps you will even get material mixes at a certain position: some rock, some gold, some ore.
I also like the idea of gold ore that you have to finish with coal.
Of course the goal of a gold mine level wouldn't be "Find every occurence of gold in this map" anymore. It would be more like "Produce x bars of gold".
I also like the idea of gold ore that you have to finish with coal.
Of course the goal of a gold mine level wouldn't be "Find every occurence of gold in this map" anymore. It would be more like "Produce x bars of gold".
>What about making gold mining more interessting by hiding the gold?
I guess that would be more "fake difficulty". It does not make the gameplay a lot "smarter" or "funnier" since you would have to dig to each vein of rock and throw a flint at it just to get "noo, not here" or "hoooray!" :)
A better method for that would be to strengthen the FoW underground, so that you have to do the fun part - figure out how to get to uncharted points in the map, but don't have to walk back just to collect a flint to waste.
Actually I never liked the FoW in Clonk. In my opinion you waste a part of the screen if you make it black. I don't know if that's just for me.
And it wouldn't be a waste of a flint since you would get at least some rocks to build something.
Another idea: What if we give the player the possibilty to do technology researches. In this case you do a research on geology/mining to make the gold visible to the player.
And it wouldn't be a waste of a flint since you would get at least some rocks to build something.
Another idea: What if we give the player the possibilty to do technology researches. In this case you do a research on geology/mining to make the gold visible to the player.
Date 2009-05-01 11:21
![[pl]](/mwf/flags/pl.png "Poland")
I can only add, that it would be great, if all players will start with things like wooden hut, rock hut, rock tower, and wood/rock weapons, and then advance technologically like in Age of Empires. So Tech trees would rather be in eras, not in single buildings.Example:
1st. Stone Era
2st. Iron Era
3st. Bronze Era
And after that player would have to make choice about what kind of civilization he wants to lead with its own weapons, structures and vehicles. This would mostly affect appearance of buildings, clonks and types of weapons to make the game well balanced, some examples: Roman style empire, Greek style empire, Asian style empire, Indian/Wild west style empire, Mayan style empire(mostly based on stone buildings), etc. they would all be divided into two stages (ancient and medieval)
Then will be one age for all (modern) with standard things like workshop for constructing vehicles, and other things that are already in Clonk Rage.
Then future/space era.
Of course advancing from one era to another wouldn`t mean, that you can`t construct old buildings in new era, but that you can build some new. Each era would have its own production lines. Often with using items/buildings from previous eras
Available eras would be set up in scenario properties, or by players before round start.
This idea of course needs to be polished, but I think its quite good.
1st. Stone Era
2st. Iron Era
3st. Bronze Era
And after that player would have to make choice about what kind of civilization he wants to lead with its own weapons, structures and vehicles. This would mostly affect appearance of buildings, clonks and types of weapons to make the game well balanced, some examples: Roman style empire, Greek style empire, Asian style empire, Indian/Wild west style empire, Mayan style empire(mostly based on stone buildings), etc. they would all be divided into two stages (ancient and medieval)
Then will be one age for all (modern) with standard things like workshop for constructing vehicles, and other things that are already in Clonk Rage.
Then future/space era.
Of course advancing from one era to another wouldn`t mean, that you can`t construct old buildings in new era, but that you can build some new. Each era would have its own production lines. Often with using items/buildings from previous eras
Available eras would be set up in scenario properties, or by players before round start.
This idea of course needs to be polished, but I think its quite good.
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