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- - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-12 18:07 Edited 2009-04-12 18:18
While I travelled through Marocco, I had some kind of inspirative phase. Biber initiated a discussion about changing the controls in the German forum - to make more use of the mouse. Controls is a very basic and important thing that can decide if a newbie gets over the first hour of playing clonk or not. And now we have the possibility to change it.
Here I want to introduce a complete and well-thought-out concept of how the clonks can be controlled more intuitively and effective.

Controlling the clonk
The mouse was since it's introduction just a help to support controlling the clonks. It neither added more control possibilities nor strived to replace the keyboard.
So here is my concept. Till now, the mouse has been used like in Real time strategy games: Giving commands, controlling (half-AI) clonks etc. As a result, it has not been used much because Clonk is just not played like a RTS. This is a completely different use as for example in Soldat or 3D-Shooters where the mouse is used to help to control just one character. So one goal of this concept is now to change this. This is of course a decision against splitscreen players.

W, A, S, D - used for left, right and jump. To make the clonk more agile, where the clonk jumps depends on his speed, additionally you can control his direction of jumping during the jump itself like in any Jump'n'run. The clonk accelerates to a jog if A/D is hold down, however he can run faster if the keys are pressed repeatedly. This is another element from popular Jump'n'runs which would add some fun to controlling the Clonk.
The same controls are used for swimming, climbing, hangling and pushing, of course.

Mouse-Throwing - Now, throwing works with releasing the left mouse button like before but while jumping, too. Additionally, and this is the main idea in using the mouse for this: With the mouse you specify in which direction the Clonk should throw the rock. So, through this, a lot of flexibility is gained, too. Equally, if we use weapons like the crossbow, catapult, cannon or bow, the player specifies the power with which he want to shoot the projectile - the closer the mouse to the clonk the less power is used. Of course, now this only applies to certain weapons like the catapult but could be used for e.g. the bow in the future too. (See attachment 1) While the left button is hold down, a line is shown like a rubber strap which shows the direction and power.

Mouse-Digging - For digging, the mouse is used too: While the right mouse button is hold down, again a rubber strap is shown between the clonk and the mouse and the clonk digs exactly into this direction. This easies the digging a lot. Especially Newbies would often dig themselves a hole where they couldnt' get out anymore. With the mouse, this is much more straightforward. Additionally it adds flexibility and looks better as the tunnels can go into any direction.
While the clonk is grabbing something, inside a building or using a weapon, the mouse-functionality could be used for alternative fire.

S - S is used now for some more things than before to unify the controls: As before S in front of buildings to build, S in front of vehicles to grab/ungrab them, S+Leftclick to put down and additionally S while digging to produce earth chunks and S to chop trees.

A short excursion on Inventory - Why may some clonks have more than one inventory? Because of weapons (old Hazard, Knights), it's ammo and gear as much as tools (Far worlds). Another possibility would have been to create a new clonk for every different functionality like it has been done to some degree especially recently by the creation of kings, magi, sorcerer, trapper, bandit etc.. This is not so far off as for example the standard clonk has already some tools "built in" like a hammer, an axe and a shovel. Inventory and gear is still the better idea than hardcoded specialised clonks, this principle could even advanced to shovels, axes and other tools as usable equipment.
Now, the controls for inventory:

The inventory is switched through with the mousewheel (as before).

CAPS-LOCK - ...is at the right position for being the replacement for double-dig: Use. To use [Space] might suggest itself but I think some players want to assign space for jump instead of W. The same key would be of course used for vehicles and buildings.

Buildings
The last thing that has been bothering me for too long is the controls inside a building. On the lower right corner, one can see a lot of descriptions what the single keys are for which imo only add to the confusion. So, what do you want to do in a building? Basically Get/Store and Sell/buy. Since this is the one big thing you want to do in a building, it earns more than a little context menu space at the border of the screen. Have a look at the attachment 2 and 3, they should be self-explicatory. I suggest a CreateReallyBigMenu and something like a CreateExchange menu which can handle sell/buy, get/store, traders in adventures, lorries etc etc.
Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-12 18:16
If we want to make a concept about a more intuitive control, we need to know what the clonk is able to do so far. Here is a list:
movement:
go/swim/climb/hangle left/right
jump
enter
build
chop tree

digging:
start/stop
dig up/down/left/right
produce earth chunks

inventory management:
throw/put down
cycle throw inventory
use inventory
use (as weapon)

vehicle control

grab/ungrab
push left/right/into building
get/put
control up/down
use (as weapon)

building control
enter/exit
get/put
buy/sell
control up/down/...
use building

crew selection
next/previous crew member
all crew members/all but this one

more
Over the time, more and more functionality has been added. This includes riding, do magic, context menu, AI control (commands), aiming (of inventory objects such as the bow) and more, depending on the object that is used.

With that much controls, it's natural that it will be complex when there are supposed to be able to play 4 players on one keyboard.
Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 12:33

> next/previous crew member


We should really think about changing this. There are obviously people out there that are better at this than me, but I always confuse myself with this system way to much. In most cases, I want a specific Clonk - but still have to look at each one of my crew members in order to find the right one.

So, quick suggestion: Maybe we could make the number keys each map to one Clonk? Selection could be done naturally using Shift (Double-Shift for all Clonks?).
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 14:18
You mean shift + number keys to select a clonk (so it fits with the concept of selecting inventory items with the number keys)? And anyway we need keys to cycle through the clonks for ridiculous high amount of crew members. (Shift + mouse wheel? ;P)
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Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 16:20

> And anyway we need keys to cycle through the clonks for ridiculous high amount of crew members. (Shift + mouse wheel? ;P)


Do we need to support ridiculously high numbers of crew members? I'm completely okay with bounding the maximum number of Clonks to 10.
Parent - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 17:34
...or at least, bind the fast access through (shift+) number keys to 10
Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 14:53
Then, the portraits or at least the names of the crew members must be shown somewhere (like the inventory is shown too).
Parent - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 16:22
Yes, like next to each other, with only the current Clonk being "expanded" or something. It's also a nice place to put damage notifications - as suggested somewhere in the bugtracker.
Parent - By timi [de] Date 2009-04-14 18:37
I really like this idea. Clonks in the upper left corner (with energy levels as well as damage and fire notification) and inventory in the lower left one. Why not? You don't have more than 3 clonks often anyway.

Additionally to the mouse we could use the F1-F12 keys for clonks (like heroes in WC3 ;)) and the num-keys for items.
Parent - - By Nico [de] Date 2009-04-20 15:00
In my opinion it is a good idea for new players. But I fear that it will destroy the traditional way of playing clonk, it would be too easy to play. The learning by doing, with combos and speed signalizes clonk. This controlling is in my opinion used in all the other games, clonk isn't any of this games, it must save what makes it interesting!
Parent - - By MastroLindo Date 2009-04-20 15:52
I think that in every community the fear of changes is always big. Every hardcore fan would like to just keep things as they are.
But I also think that it is just a normal fear, and not really a risk. I think that what makes clonk so wonderful and so charming for all of us is its gameplay, its freedom, its being so various and different, not its controls. Or better, people is surely used to them, but I think that not wanting to change them is just a fear of not wanting to change a game you love more than the real thought that they cant be improved.

I don't have any problems with clonk controls. I have played it for years and I never big problems.
But at the same times I show the game to at least 10 friends (at least means they are more 20 than 10), insist to them for trying well the game,but mostly all of them left the game, and, apart for 2/3 of them that didn't like the gameplay, all the rest of them was JUST for the controls.

I think there is fear for changes, as there was fear in the forum when they announced the j'n'r controls (that many still hates, but that was the only cause why  didn't leave the game too). I understand the fear, i had it the same with many titles I loved in the past (tribes series most of all), but sometimes changes is good, it can improve things, it can make things more natural, it can attract more people, make the league bigger, give more additional contents and support to the game, and so on...
It is always possible to switch back to the actual system if it will be seen that the new controls don't work well...

and btw 

>But I fear that it will destroy the traditional way of playing clonk, it would be too easy to play. The learning by doing, with combos and speed signalizes clonk


in my opinion difficulty doesn't have to come from controls, but from the gameplay. Controls MUST make the game as easy to play as it can be, it's the GAME that should make things difficult...
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Parent - - By Nico [de] Date 2009-04-20 16:47
Yes, you are right, the main point is the game play! But I can't imagine how it will be if just one person can play at one computer. Of cause the control is not easy. As I see clonk at first time I wanted to play it, but I thing after one minute I uninstall it because of the consol. A few weeks later friends come to me and wanted to play it, there I’ve learned the control. Maybe you are right and there must be a new, we will see! (I hope my English is not to bad ;))
Parent - - By MastroLindo Date 2009-04-20 17:46
I love split screen and the the chance to play more on one pc, but a usb mouse costs like 5E nowadays, if you are 2 ppl is a bunch of euro per each person... there is always to chance to find new ways of playing together :)
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Parent - - By Enrique [de] Date 2009-04-20 20:09
Well what i dislike the most, is not the € you spend more. It is just the fact that you cannot play with one hand anymore. Because of that, my lovely "Cheaterboard" will become useless :(
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Parent - By Cani [de] Date 2009-04-20 20:44
I'm totally with you on this!
You can not use two mice and one keyboard on a small desk. And even if there is enough room for the devices one player had to cross his arms for not disturbing the other one unless he is left-handed.
Parent - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-12 19:14
The ideas are nice; actually; they aren't even too hard to implement. What needs to be done for this first is to add additional individual input options for Throw/Get/Put/Dig/Contents-Shift/etc. and also allow them to be assigned to any mouse button. Also allow the same key/mouse button to be assigned to multiple actions to create a fallback chain (the current setup would use this heavily, but we may change that). Then any user can experiment with different input options and we may eventually settle for a more intuitive default.

For splitscreen, I suggest adding multiple mouse support. DirectInput can do this, afaIk. But please keep in mind that gamepad users can usually not use the mouse, so we may need to provide different defaults for gamepads.

Enhanced menus were actually on the list of things to do for CR, but never made it. As a first step, we could create a very generic script interface to create dialogs (like CreateDialog, AddDialogItem, etc.). Then push menus completely into script where anyone can experiment.
Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-12 20:56 Edited 2009-04-12 21:03
This is how it could look like with a gamepad. With gamepads with no joystick built in it is harder because there is no replacement for the mouse. The best way to control it would be here that the "cursor" is attached to the clonk and is pulled out like a rubber strap by the joystick. Without the joystick, it would have to work with the 2-axis on the left in the same way.
Parent - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-12 22:27
I wouldn't try to emulate the mouse on a gamepad. Using the second stick may be possible; I don't have any experience with how well this works. But my gamepad has just one cross, six buttons and two shoulder buttons (and I really enjoy the simplicity of this).

Anyway, I guess we should try to make a good "standard" way of controlling first and then see how things can be adapted to the no-mouse-case.
Parent - - By timi [de] Date 2009-04-14 18:41
I agree with Sven2. Emulating the mouse with a gamepad is not that innovative. And if we don't come to a better solution we should really use the second stick, IMO it's of high importance to be able to walk and aim at the same time.
Parent - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 18:51 Edited 2009-04-14 18:54
I played PS2 yesterday and I must say its pretty easy to push a button on the right while pulling the joystick into the direction you want. It's not as exact as with the mouse but as fast or even more fast. Of course this only works if the cursor is attached to the Clonk when playing with the gamepad.

We shouldn't make the mistake in trying to only implement with the keyboard+mouse whats possible with the gamepad. Almost every game which came out for the PC as well as the console, changed the controls a little bit more for the console than just reassign some keys.
Parent - By K-Pone [de] Date 2009-04-14 20:53
This looks good, but some gamepads, like the Logitech Dual Action that's shown there on the picture, don't have a good D-Pad (Cross Controller). Often it happened when I played a game and used the D-Pad it not only recognized that I pressed left, it recognized left and down, but the analog stick controllers are also not good for controlling a clonk, so it is better to use ist as a controller for a mouse pointer, as you already said.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-12 21:29
Basically this sounds like a really nice concept. Just a few comments:

> Mouse-Digging


Sounds good. Would like to see if the Sven2 way to dig (digging up chunks of earth to get faster upwards) still works with that.

> A short excursion on Inventory


So I got the idea of different inventory types. One for normal objects, another one for every IsWeapon-Object and so on. You need an option to switch between the different inventories. So even the knight can carry only one normal object (PeterW should like this ;) and has two additional weapon slots (and 3 ammo/arrow slots?).

> CAPS-LOCK


No caps-lock please ;) Using this key in a game everytime screws the whole chatting up. Left shift is still easy to reach when using wasd.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-12 22:33

> So I got the idea of different inventory types. One for normal objects, another one for every IsWeapon-Object and so on. You need an option to switch between the different inventories. So even the knight can carry only one normal object (PeterW should like this ;-) and has two additional weapon slots (and 3 ammo/arrow slots?).


Why would you want to make things more complicated than they already are?

I'd rather simplify the case of carrying multiple objects: Display the selected object much larger; highlight newbly collected objects somehow, but push them into he back of the inventory.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-13 00:33 Edited 2009-04-13 00:40
The idea evolved from the knight. When you have a fully armed knight, he carries about 6 objects (3 objects and 3 types arrows - worst case). It's pretty annoying to select a certain object.
But with different inventories you choose between three objects maximum. Or better.
For example a knight stuffed with a flint, a sword, a bow and three arrow packs. You run around, flint selected for quick throwing. When you need the bow, you pick the weapon inventory (bow is first object) and don't have to press special 1 / change inventory four times or so. That's pretty easy. By pulling out the bow the ammo inventory will be selected automatically. You choose which arrow type you want to fire by changing them (see metal & magic, but it's pretty confusing there imho).
All you need is a second inventory key, one for changing the objects in the current and one for changing the inventory.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-13 00:52 Edited 2009-04-13 00:54
All you need to do is click on the item/weapon you want to use. That's pretty intuitive already, imo. Having a set of different keys (a "weapon"-key and a "flint"-key?) would be a lot more complicated.

We could think of allowing direct access to the indexed inventory on the number keys though. We may even arrange it so the numbers are fixed as long as your inventory does not change.
Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-13 01:08
Who says that the inventory has to changes places at all? I know the metaphor that the leftmost object is the selected one only from Clonk anyway. The selected object could be displayed bigger instead or from another angle (3D!!). This way, it's pretty easy: Select the first object - [1], select the second object [2], etc... If new objects are collected, they just go to the right end and are selectable with the number keys or the mouse wheel.

In my concept, the classic point-and-click-functionality of the mouse would be limited: If you can only throw and shoot by pointing the mouse into the right direction, it's very slow to click in the inventory bar first, then target your enemy again.
Parent - By knight_k [de] Date 2009-04-13 11:31

> If new objects are collected, they just go to the right end and are selectable with the number keys or the mouse wheel.


Sounds good. :)
Btw, inserting new objects at the right end was discussed in the english forum some time ago, here, too.
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Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-13 01:50

> All you need to do is click on the item/weapon you want to use.


So that may be fast when using a graph tablet. You need to get all the way down to the lower left and back up which isn't very fast when using a mouse. Intuitive but slow.

> We could think of allowing direct access to the indexed inventory on the number keys though.


Sounds okay.
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Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 12:52
Another use for the number keys, eh? ;)

Clicking using the mouse might be intuitive, but is way too slow. We shouldn't have stuff built-in that we have to teach newbies - only to make them forget it later because they can't use it in combat situations. Currently my personal favorite is switching with Y and C.

Two other things I consider important:
* Looking into the bottom-left corner is something the player shouldn't need to do often. I'd very much like a solution where you can see at your Clonk what he's currently using. Maybe CX-style, maybe by flashing an icon above him when switching inventory or crew.
* I really hate those kind-of-inventory type objects like arrows. They don't count towards the inventory limit (or only kind-of? I don't even know) and can't be used without an additional object. Maybe we should picture the bow as coming with a quiver, where all ammunition is added to the quiver when picked up?
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 14:46

> Currently my personal favorite is switching with Y and C.


What about Q and E? Easier to reach when using WASD imho ('cause y/z is a bit tricky, the standard(?) layout would enforce < as the correlating key to C)

> Looking into the bottom-left corner is something the player shouldn't need to do often


I really like the idea of the icon flashing / carrying the object in hand. We should stick to that!

> Maybe we should picture the bow as coming with a quiver, where all ammunition is added to the quiver when picked up?


Basically that's my idea with two different inventories (you just want it as a sub-inventory with no visual feedback of what's inside it?). Taking away the options to use arrows as independent objects will screw up some tactics (self tumbling / spell combos) and make the crossbow useless (okay, I didn't really like the crossbow anyway, think normal clonks should be able to use a bow - I favour a concept where no special clonks are needed anymore).
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Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 14:56

> > Currently my personal favorite is switching with Y and C.
> What about Q and E


Did everybody forget the mousewheel? When the mouse is used not just from time to time but always with the right arm, the mouse wheel is quite close to the middle finger... ;-)
Parent - - By Nachtfalter [de] Date 2009-04-14 14:59
Mh, think about Touchpad Users... :/ (like me)
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Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 15:09
The touchpad isn't really designed for gaming.
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Parent - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 16:37
And speaking from my Mac experience, multi-touch touchpads are superior to mouse wheels anyway.
Parent - - By timi [de] Date 2009-04-14 18:43
But it should be enough. Even (or especially) on a mac. I've played World of Goo entirelly with my touchpad ;)
Parent - - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 18:55
The complexity of control of this game is another dimension. Basically, it's just point and click. Thats a world different from Clonk or even simple JNRs.
Parent - By timi [de] Date 2009-04-14 19:10
Yes, of course you're right. Playing a game like WC3 really sucks with a touchpad – and maybe Clonk would, too. But I think it ought be possible for short-terms.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 22:18
So that's the question - whether the mouse shall just assist the keyboard or get the leading part. I think the possibilities are quite big enough for fully integrating the mouse.
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Parent - By timi [de] Date 2009-04-14 22:44
Full ACK.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 15:07 Edited 2009-04-14 15:29
I was thinking of Peter as a Mac user, just one mouse button, no wheel.
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Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-14 15:24
Tablet users don't have a wheel either.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 15:29
I do have one ;P
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Parent - By Nachtfalter [de] Date 2009-04-14 17:33
me to :o
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Parent - - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 16:23
I'm actually more of a trackball user.
Parent - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 22:13
Ah yes, I remember. That evil thingy.
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Parent - By PeterW [de] Date 2009-04-14 16:43

> What about Q and E?


You have a point. Didn't realize they were free %)

> you just want it as a sub-inventory with no visual feedback of what's inside it?


Well, visual feedback is always another story. I actually though about showing tiny icons right besides the bow with what is currently loaded inside the quiver. The point where I'm also kind of lost is when you want to get the arrows out of the quiver. That's something Hazard never needs.

> self tumbling / spell combos


All plus points in my book ;)
Parent - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 17:37

>okay, I didn't really like the crossbow anyway, think normal clonks should be able to use a bow - I favour a concept where no special clonks are needed anymore


I favour that concept too, actually. The "speciality" and looks of the clonks would then be determined by their equipment, not of their type. I mentioned this in the concept too, actually.
Parent - By Newton [es] Date 2009-04-14 14:58

>I really hate those kind-of-inventory type objects like arrows


Yes, the old ammunition-discussion. How about the Hazard (not Hazard Arena!) approach that you can equip the ammunition like gear after collecting it by pressing [Use]?
Parent - - By Sven2 [us] Date 2009-04-14 15:00

> Clicking using the mouse might be intuitive, but is way too slow.


I'm playing that way, because it's usually faster than keyboard switching.
Parent - - By Clonkonaut [de] Date 2009-04-14 15:08
Yeah, the current system is slow.
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Up Topic General / Feedback and Ideas / Controls revised
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